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--- Log opened Tue Nov 15 01:55:26 2016
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01:55 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church
01:55 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]
01:55 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
01:55 [ __mz_o      ] [ bsm1175321] [ ebowden_   ] [ JenElizabeth   ] [ night          ] [ strages    ] 
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01:55 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 90 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 90 normal]
01:55 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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02:38 < jrayhawk> Web cgis for piny are going to be broken for a while.
02:38 < jrayhawk> e.g. all the wikis.
02:38 < jrayhawk> Git should still work fine.
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06:10 < JayDugger> maaku, what inferno movie?
06:14 < __mz_o> .tell juri_ were you ever able to render at .1?
06:14 < yoleaux> __mz_o: I'll pass your message to juri_.
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07:08 < fenn> "the sequel to The Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons"
07:09 < JayDugger> Thank you, fenn.
07:09 < fenn> (Tom Hanks) awakens in a hospital room in Florence, Italy, with no memory of what has transpired over the last few days, but being plagued with visions of a scorched Earth.  a billionaire geneticist who believed that rigorous measures were necessary to reduce the Earth's growing population, and who committed suicide after being chased by armed government agents ... has created a virus he has
07:09 < fenn> dubbed "Inferno"
07:10 < fenn> et cetera
07:11 < kanzure> "my momma always taught me not to make virus-induced genocides"
07:11 < fenn> BUT WHAT IF HE WAS RIGHT
07:11 < fenn> the shocking denoument that was not included in the final release of the movie
07:13 < kanzure> we should have immune system organoid robots that fly around and lick surfaces everywhere that people plan to be, and then report back on illnesses and do ahead-of-time antibody manufacturing stuff
07:13 < kanzure> i guess i just described children. it would be less horrifying if we didn't have to use children for that.
07:14 < fenn> children are carriers
07:14 < __mz_o> sounds like something out of a neal stephenson book
07:14 < fenn> wow this movie was made in 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_(film)
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07:22 < JayDugger> "Didn't have to?" Ever tried stopping children from licking, tasting, or inserting things into their mouths?
07:23 < JayDugger> And no, giving a child a pacifier doesn't count as "stopping."
07:24 < cluckj> yes
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08:32 < kanzure> https://medium.com/learning-for-life/stories-of-ted-chiangs-life-and-others-694cb3c80d13#.5rp5tfcjm
08:49 < JayDugger> Greg Egan is popular in Japan?
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08:52 < JayDugger> https://archive.org/details/TedChiangUnderstand
08:57 < fenn> "sensors in tractor detect need for a spare part and automatically place order"  uh huh sure, right, i'm sure that works flawlessly
08:58 < fenn> (AWS lambda example scenario)
09:31 < nmz787_w> fenn: I remember years ago a friend telling me about placing piezo sensors all over a vehicle's frame, and basically doing something similar
09:32 < nmz787_w> seems like there could definitely be a lot of noise, but if you could filter it out... seems like you could have reasonable localization for noise signature sources, and could corellate that with a look-up for particular engines/vehicles
09:39 < kanzure> you'd probably do better with a regular maintenance schedule instead
09:39 < nmz787_w> there are lots of things in engines that aren't considered for regular maintenance though
09:40 < nmz787_w> like rubber vacuum hoses
09:40 < nmz787_w> plus with sensors you have a timeline
09:42 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12957768
09:42 < yoleaux> "Radioactive Boy Scout" who tried to build a homemade nuclear reactor dead at 39 | Hacker News
09:44 < __mz_o> damn
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09:46 < __mz_o> comments say suicide? interesting none the less
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10:00 < fenn> "Hahn later served four years in the United States Navy, including service aboard the USS Enterprise, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier."
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10:08 < fenn> "Ex-Rad protects cells exposed to radiation against DNA damage, and that the drug's mechanism of action does not involve scavenging free radicals or arresting the cell cycle. Instead, they claim it employs a "novel mechanism" involving "intracellular signaling, damage sensing, and DNA repair pathways". Ex-RAD is a chlorobenzylsulfone derivative that works after free radicals have damaged DNA."
10:09 < fenn> well you probably want to scavenge free radicals in addition to ex-rad
10:15 < fenn> "on the day he died was a very major traffic accident, the worst thing to happen in town in weeks before and after ... I would not be surprised if he died in that specific car accident."
10:24 < fenn> "He is currently on his third degree at Macomb Community College. His first was in Applied Science, his second in Communications and Performing Arts and now he is studying Automotive Engineering.
10:24 < fenn> He feels certain that the combination of his knowledge of science and energy and car engineering might marry together in some way in time."
10:24 < kanzure> more music https://soundcloud.com/darkarchitectsofficial/dark-architects-pres-blueprints-007-february-2016?in=darkarchitectsofficial/sets/blueprints
10:25 < newbie> nick anachronick
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10:50 < nmz787_w> hi chris_99
10:52 < chris_99> hey
10:52 < yoleaux> 14 Nov 2016 23:58Z <nmz787_w> chris_99: well there's a range of pressures https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Carbon_dioxide_pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg
10:52 < yoleaux> 00:03Z <nmz787_w> chris_99: compare to water, no super-critical phase and weird sharp vertical line (almost) at 0 Celsius https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Phase_diagram_of_water.svg
10:52 < yoleaux> 00:04Z <nmz787_w> chris_99: also while on that topic: http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-just-discovered-a-second-state-of-liquid-water
10:52 < chris_99> i think i was misunderstanding what you meant yesterday, as water can be forced through at massive pressures
10:53 < chris_99> brb
11:00 < chris_99> oh interesting, i'll look over those links thanks!
11:01 < chris_99> oh weird, so it can be still a liquid at >> 1000psi?
11:01 < chris_99> oh sorry
11:01 < chris_99> that chart is in bar
11:01 < fenn> it's usually liquid at that pressure and normal temperatuers
11:02 < chris_99> so if i'm reading that diagram right, at 14500 psi
11:02 < chris_99> it still can be liquid?
11:03 < fenn> are you talking about co2 or water?
11:03 < chris_99> co2
11:03 < chris_99> as 1000 bar == 14500 psi i think
11:05 < fenn> the transition from liquid to gas is poorly defined
11:05 < fenn> or maybe unknowable
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11:05 < fenn> you have to get to much higher pressure to turn it to solid at room temperature though
11:06 < fenn> it sure sounds like a liquid if you shake a bottle of it
11:07 < chris_99> now i need to look what's the difference between super-critical fluid and liquid
11:07 < fenn> good luck
11:08 < chris_99> yeah heh, just skimming the wiki article that sounds very weird
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11:20 < nmz787_w> looks like it can be liquid up to 72000 PSI, with enough heat
11:20 < fenn> it's not difficult to get that much pressure with liquids
11:21 < chris_99> nmz787_w, you know you mentioned someone you know does co2 extraction of stuff, is that with super critical co2 you said?
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11:21 < nmz787_w> i was wondering last night if you could get supercritical by feeding co2 gas (or high-pressure almost liquid from a beverage tank) to a pressure washer (stated up to 1650 PSI for water)
11:22 < nmz787_w> chris_99: yeah
11:22 < nmz787_w> chris_99: family friend when I was growing up
11:22 < nmz787_w> re-refining used motor engine oil
11:22 < nmz787_w> to clean it up for re-use
11:22 < chris_99> ah neat
11:23 < nmz787_w> but its used a lot in bioproducts too
11:23 < nmz787_w> or in critical point drying for electron microscopy preparation
11:23 < chris_99> so the reason you want supercritical co2 rather than just liquid co2, is because "it can effuse through solids like a gas"?
11:23 < nmz787_w> yup
11:24 < chris_99> is there a fuzzy point i wonder
11:24 < chris_99> between liquid and supercritical?
11:24 < nmz787_w> yeah I think its called subcritical
11:25 < fenn> that's the critical point
11:26 < chris_99> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gCTKteN5Y4
11:26 < nmz787_w> it's probably a continuous effect, on the low end a sponge will easily soak with liquid... but a cell won't.... I bet there are various cell membranes that will be smeared along this range
11:26 < chris_99> .title
11:26 < yoleaux> A close look at supercritical carbon dioxide CO2 - YouTube
11:27 < nmz787_w> some kind of mixed coefficient made of permeability and solubility
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11:32 < fenn> nice bomb
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11:40 < chris_99> http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21709948-new-way-detect-even-quietest-boats-hunting-submarines-magnets
11:40 < chris_99> thought that was cool
11:48 < fenn> .wik debye effect
11:48 < yoleaux> "The increase in the conductivity of an electrolyte solution when the applied voltage has a very high frequency is known as Debye-Falkenhagen effect. Impedance measurements on water-p-dioxane and the methanol-toluene systems have confirmed Falkenhagen's predictions made in 1929." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye%E2%80%93Falkenhagen_effect
11:48 < fenn> um
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11:48 < chris_99> i'm confused about that description
11:48 < chris_99> about how it relates
11:48 < chris_99> to magnetism
11:48 < fenn> wrong debye effect
11:48 < chris_99> ah
11:49 < fenn> .title http://www.navysbir.com/n10_1/N101-037.htm
11:49 < yoleaux> (SBIR) Navy - Investigation of the Debye Effect for Submarine Detection
11:50 < fenn> seems to be pretty standard magnetohydrodynamics
11:50 < fenn> the magic is probably in the signal processing to separate out all the other stuff moving around in the ocean
11:51 < chris_99> wait so the magnetic effect is actually due to acoustics of the sub
11:51 < chris_99> though
11:51 < fenn> no
11:51 < fenn> it's because ions in the seawater are moving around in a circle
11:53 < chris_99> " The effort in this task is to determine the magnitude of the electric and magnetic fields caused by acoustic signals as a function of distance from the source in the ocean." -- thats the bit that i confusing me
11:54 < nmz787_w> .wik debye model
11:54 < yoleaux> "In thermodynamics and solid state physics, the Debye model is a method developed by Peter Debye in 1912 for estimating the phonon contribution to the specific heat (heat capacity) in a solid." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye_model
11:54 < nmz787_w> maybe that?
11:54 < fenn> "the debye effect" seems to be some crap the navy made up
11:54 < chris_99> heh
11:54 < nmz787_w> but phonon/accoustics in this case could be from the rudder, from shear forces on the hull
11:55 < chris_99> thats what i was thinking some kind of noise from the sub
11:55 < nmz787_w> or maybe some multi-source sensor with an integrating filter (I only know the jargon "kalman")
11:57 < chris_99> think i got it
11:57 < chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroacoustic_phenomena
11:57 < chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_vibration_current
11:57 < chris_99> the latter is the actual effect
12:00 < fenn> that would seem to rely on an acoustic vibration
12:01 < fenn> "no matter how quiet they are, their wake would give them away" doesn't make sense if that were the effect
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12:03 < chris_99> but isn't the wake from their movement, a potential acoustic vibration
12:03 < fenn> not as a pressure wave, no
12:03 < nmz787_w> why not?
12:03 < fenn> because the pressure doesn't change
12:03 < nmz787_w> shear force imparts pressure, no?
12:04 < chris_99> i cant see how it couldn't be that effect, as it has the exact same reference article
12:04 < nmz787_w> when I ride on my motorcycle, I feel all kinds of pressure as I slip through the air-fluid
12:04 < chris_99> and date
12:04 < fenn> if you stick an object into a moving stream it will make noise, but that doesn't mean the stream itself has pressure fluctuations in it
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12:05 < nmz787_w> noise is pressure fluctuations though
12:06 < fenn> a laminar flow doesn't have pressure fluctuations until you stick something into it, is all i was saying
12:11 < fenn> oh hm i should have read the SBIR more closely
12:11 < fenn> "The effect results from the separation of charges due to differences in the masses and mobilities of the ions"
12:12 < nmz787_w> so its a diff of how far ions are in undisturbed seawater vs how far in disturbed
12:12 < chris_99> from the paper '"we should expect potential differences of the period of the sound waves set up between different points of an electrolyte solution by the passing of sound waves"'
12:14 < nmz787_w> very cool
12:14 < chris_99> mm
12:14 < nmz787_w> the debye huckel equation was quite difficult for me to get through analysing and using during Analytical Chemistry
12:14 < chris_99> they must do some very clever stuff, to remove the effects of their own sub
12:16 < nmz787_w> yeah a simple counter rotating propeller probably wouldn't smooth out the phonons
12:17 < nmz787_w> maybe some weird phased array electromagnets for smoothing the ions with?
12:19 < chris_99> hmm no idea, i was wondering, they used gravimeters to map the floor of the ocean, whether they could find other subs, but that could be impossible?
12:20 < fenn> mass detectors exist since the 80s
12:20 < fenn> they work by rotating crossed laser interferometer pairs
12:20 < chris_99> yeah, they were invented for subs apparently, but could they detect other subs
12:21 < fenn> sure why not
12:21 < fenn> the question is whether it's feasible and practical
12:21 < chris_99> mm
12:22 < chris_99> theres a good anecote on wiki how the snow on a lab effected the results
12:22 < chris_99> from one
12:22 < fenn> the average density of a sub is the same as seawater so you have to have better resolution than half the size of the sub
12:22 < fenn> link?
12:22 < chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter see the relative section
12:24 < fenn> "The first transportable relative gravimeters were, reportedly, a secret military technology developed in the 1950-60s as a navigational aid for nuclear submarines."
12:24 < fenn> didn't know that
12:24 < chris_99> mm tis interesting
12:25 < fenn> i figured they were developed by robert forward while working at hughes aircraft on gravity probe B
12:26 < fenn> gravity probe A?
12:26 < chris_99> B seems to be around year 2000s
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12:27 < fenn> "1965 - Joseph Weber puts the first Weber bar gravitational wave detector into operation"
12:27 < chris_99> cool, i thought 'gravitational wave detector'y things where a lot more recent?
12:28 < fenn> "he headed electronic countermeasures design for the Navy's Bureau of Ships"
12:28 < chris_99> i'm confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitational_waves how come that says 2015, is that something else?
12:29 < chris_99> ah ' his experiments were duplicated many times, always with a null result.'
12:29 < fenn> mass detectors work by detecting the relative distortion of space, not a traveling wave of distortion
12:30 < chris_99> yeah but the weber bar relates more to ligo doesn't it , that say a gravimeter?
12:30 < chris_99> *than
12:31 < fenn> yes, a weber bar doesn't rotate afaik
12:31 < chris_99> ah
12:32 < chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_bar the description sounds really interesting
12:32 < chris_99> about massive cylinders
12:33 < fenn> .title http://arxivblog.com/?p=1271
12:33 < yoleaux> Were gravitational waves first detected in 1987? << the physics arXiv blog
12:34 < chris_99> be cool if they were
12:34 < chris_99> will have a read
12:35 < fenn> well you cant exactly repeat a supernova
12:35 < chris_99> heh
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12:38 < chris_99> awh it sucks he died in 2000
12:39 < fenn> the physicists seem pretty down on weber's experimental rigor
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12:46 < fenn> also i dunno where wikipedia gets off claiming secret military gravimeters in 1950's and 60's with no citation  (the provided article talks about geodetic surveys from aircraft and makes no citations that early)
12:48 < chris_99> mm yeah that is a good point
12:49 < fenn> i mean i see how it could be possible without lasers but golly
12:49 < chris_99> i think all the relative ones don't use lasers?
12:51 < fenn> grr fucking time portals
12:52 < fenn> you can construct a gravity gradiometer with two contraptions that toss a mass up and down and measure its acceleration by counting the frequency of light fringes due to constructive/destructive interference
12:53 < chris_99> yeah thats the absolute one
12:53 < fenn> two absolutes make a relative
12:54 < chris_99> it's called an absolute gravimeter i mean, at least on wiki
12:54 < chris_99> i wondered how hard they'd be to make
12:54 < chris_99> but it sounds very?
12:54 < chris_99> to get decent precision
12:58 < chris_99> i found a cylinder vac chamber but it's ?400
13:04 < nmz787_w> sounds like you could use a 32 KHz RTC (de-canned)
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13:20 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/crispr-gene-editing-tested-in-a-person-for-the-first-time-1.20988
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15:21 < nmz787_w> "Cylinder pressures in a stock [diesel] car are around 3000 psi"
15:22 < nmz787_w> put two engines clutch-to-clutch, one acting as a compressor being driven by the other
15:27 < fenn> buy dry ice at the grocery store for $5
15:32 < nmz787_w> indeer a possibility
15:32 < nmz787_w> indeed*
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15:57 < Solvaring> nig-nag-neeg
15:58 < nmz787_w> hee-haww
15:58 < fenn> let's keep it civil
15:59 < nmz787_w> sorry, I was just being an ass
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18:40 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12960844
18:40 < yoleaux> CRISPR gene-editing tested in a person for the first time | Hacker News
18:41 < kanzure> "Startups working on this (with credible founders, i.e. inventors of CRISPR) include Editas Medicine, Caribous Biosciences, and CRISPRx. Look out for Doudna, Qi, Charpentier, Elledge, and Church. J. Listgarten for computation approaches to improving CRISPR/CAS9. This isn't ready for in vivo use yet due to off-target effects (CAS9 is a very permissive protein that often binds to the wrong part of the
18:41 < kanzure>  DNA). In the US, Carl June's group at ...
18:41 < kanzure> ... U Penn is working on editing adoptive, engineered CAR T cells for cancer therapy, going into clinical trials. They're probably bummed to have been scooped, though their work is certainly more clinically relevant than Lu's."
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19:23 < kanzure> hmph
19:35 < streety> Has anyone come across http://contentmine.org/ previously? I was at a seminar on it earlier today. Claim to have a tool for extracting content from scientific article pdf's
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21:11 < anachronick> https://aiexperiments.withgoogle.com/giorgio-cam
21:11 < anachronick> :)
21:11 < anachronick> having so much fun with this
21:11 < anachronick> ahah
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