--- Log opened Mon Nov 21 00:00:17 2016
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05:31 < kanzure> hrmph
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05:58 < JayDugger> That's spelled "Harumph." You know, with vowels.
06:32 < kanzure> hmm. so, what is the status of our ice caps.
06:32 < kanzure> and also, what is the tensile strength of an ice cap?
06:33 < kanzure> could we attach giant engines
06:36 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recorded_icebergs_by_area
06:36 < kanzure> i wonder if this would work for high-throughput shipping container transportation
06:37 < JayDugger> pycrete? plastic flow of ice under various loads?
06:37 < kanzure> ah, this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice
06:38 < kanzure> hm i guess i mean icebergs. these other ones are too small.
06:39 < kanzure> "Iceberg B31 is a large iceberg that formed in November 2013, when it separated from the Pine Island Glacier. B31 is heading into the Antarctic ocean, which may have possible repercusions for international shipping.[1][2][3][4]"
06:41 < kanzure> "The average life expectancy of an iceberg in the North Atlantic is only about two to three years"
06:41 < JayDugger> Sounds like an awesome pirate base for that period. Sub pens in the voids within, an underwater tunnel to reach it, pulp writers eat your hearts out!
06:42 < streety> have you seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk ?
06:42 < kanzure> i guess we'd see more ice bergs at the equator if they would last long enough to reach that far. or, maybe they just move too slowly at the moment.
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06:44 < kanzure> "In most years, icebergs enter the North Atlantic shipping lanes (red lines) during the spring and early summer."
06:44 < kanzure> so they are literally in the right spots
06:45 < kanzure> "IIP's data records, which extend to 1900, show that nearly 500 icebergs enter the shipping lanes in an average year. [The 1900-2010 average is 479.] However, the year-to-year variation is wide. In 1984, the busiest iceberg year in IIP's history, 2202 icebergs entered the shipping lanes.  On the other hand, during two years (1966 and 2006) no icebergs reached the shipping lanes."
06:46 < kanzure> from http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=IcebergLocations
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06:50 < kanzure> icebergs between greenland and norway/europe/africa http://www.geus.dk/viden_om/voii/ilulissat-uk/voii04_kort07_uk.jpg
06:56 < kanzure> something about tugboats towing icebergs to africa for water http://www.scidev.net/global/water/news/icebergs-africa.html
06:56 < kanzure> "He says the collaboration calculated that it would be theoretically possible to tow a 7 million-tonne iceberg from Newfoundland to the Canary Islands. This would take 141 days and need just one tugboat if prevailing ocean currents were harnessed, according to documents from Dassault Syst?mes."
06:57 < kanzure> ".. in 2011 his team estimated a budget of almost EUR8 million (around US$10.1 million) to transport an iceberg from Newfoundland to the Canary Islands."
06:58 < kanzure> http://www.3ds.com/icedream/
06:59 < kanzure> so 0.3 meters/sec
06:59 < kanzure> 25 km/day. hrm.
07:00 < kanzure> http://www.3ds.com/icedream/documentary/ http://www.3ds.com/icedream/faq/
07:02 < kanzure> "iceberg transfert is far cheaper that shipping by tankers, a small arctic iceberg of 10 millions tonns  would require the capacity of 50 to 100 large tankers"
07:02 < kanzure> "According to prevailing winds and currents, earth rotation, practical destinations of iceberg transfert are the west coasts of the continents like for instance Maroco, Namibia for Africa, western and south Australia, Chili, Perou California"
07:06 < kanzure> cargo ships are 1000 km/day. hrm.
07:07 < kanzure> well, the throughput of an iceberg would be many orders of magnitude higher, at least. for shipping that can tolerate delays of a half-year or more, it could work.
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07:21 < kanzure> also there should be luxury cruises on icebergs, just for the sake of irony and such
07:30 < JayDugger> Sorry for the delay, kanzure, housework interrupt. Yes, I've seen Habakkuk. (Obscure SF reference omitted.)
07:31 < kanzure> that wasn't my question
07:32 < JayDugger> I don't know about those numbers. Compared to tankers full of what? Fresh water? Crude oil? Seems pretty hard to trust BOTE calculations on that, but I don't know enough about shipping to even guess.
07:33 < JayDugger> And no, I admit a pirate base only appeals on the basis of pulp factor, not good sense. How would you hide an iceberg?
07:33 < kanzure> in fact, you could probably make an ice bridge between some of the continents, if you were regularly refreshing the bridge with new ice (and pulling new ice in advance to replace when necessary). the trouble would be how to make bridges work without lots of cost.
07:34 < kanzure> JayDugger: well, icebergs are already mostly hidden under water
07:36 < JayDugger> Yes, but could you spot them all with high enough confidence from wide area sensors such as satellites to find my hypothetical pirate base? Spot the iceberg with the IR plume? Hear the iceberg that sounds like it has an engine with passive sonar?
07:36 < kanzure> what was your goal, again? piracy or something?
07:37 < JayDugger> Yeah, but that's just for its juvenile appeal--same as a secret volcano island. I think the luxury cruise probably works better. Tow one to Hawaii and sell the Asian noveau riche on the idea of Waikiki in the morning and skiing in the afternoon, with offshore gambling in the evening.
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08:19 < ForrestFlanagan> Read something about towing icebergs.
08:20 < kanzure> for iceberg land bridging, i think it would require too many tug boats, since you'd need many many icebergs and they would need to be kept in position
08:22 < ForrestFlanagan> My dad and I used to make model boats out of wood.
08:22 < ForrestFlanagan> Historical sailboats mostly.
08:23 < ForrestFlanagan> I'd rig them up with some bits of RC kit so I could adjust the mainsail and control the prop
08:24 < ForrestFlanagan> what I liked about it was, since the only power I used was for adjusting the sails, it used practically no power
08:25 < kanzure> i dunno if sails are gonna work for a 10 km^2 iceberg
08:25 < ForrestFlanagan> could keep those things criss-crossing a retention pond or similar small body of water all day
08:25 < ForrestFlanagan> yeah, icebergs are heavy, but the idea of a small sail-drone for shipping is pretty rock-solid I think
08:26 < kanzure> hm, i guess the sails would be reusable and reinstallable even after the iceberg melts
08:30 < kanzure> lavrentiya to wales alaska is only 136 km
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08:38 < ForrestFlanagan> giant kites might work in some cases
08:39 < chris_99> i missed the start of the conversation alas, why do you want to move them out of interest? Also if i'm not imagining it, they have moved them before for use as ice haven't they?
08:40 < ForrestFlanagan> http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-11-21.log
08:40 < ForrestFlanagan> they big
08:40 < chris_99> will have a looky ta
08:41 < chris_99> oh for water
08:41 < kanzure> moving icebergs is useful for a few reasons-- high-throughput cargo transportation, and also land bridging
08:41 < chris_99> i wonder how big of an airship one would need to move them through the air
08:42 < kanzure> why through the air? they are already floating.
08:42 < chris_99> just because it'd be funny sight, but yeah via water would be far more sensible
08:44 < ForrestFlanagan> it'd be threatening, that's for sure
08:44 < chris_99> but wouldnt desalination plants be better
08:44 < chris_99> if you can do that efficiently
08:44 < ForrestFlanagan> who's going to reject free freshwater?
08:45 < chris_99> but you can't just steal all the icebergs, or can you..
08:45 < ForrestFlanagan> plus I kind of like the idea of skiing and offshore gambling in waikiki
08:45 < ForrestFlanagan> there are so stupidly many icebergs breaking off all the time
08:46 < ForrestFlanagan> except for 2012 for some reason
08:46 < chris_99> dumb question do icebergs not have any salt in them?
08:46 < ForrestFlanagan> not much, it's proper freshwater
08:46 < chris_99> hmm interesting
08:47 < ForrestFlanagan> basically, the freezing is really slow, and the crystal structure doesn't have room for salt
08:47 < ForrestFlanagan> there will be small inclusions, but it wouldn't be a thing someone could taste
08:47 < chris_99> ah cool
08:48 < ForrestFlanagan> I think it'd be funny to try and encapsulate an iceberg
08:49 < ForrestFlanagan> freshwater is buoyant is saltwater, so just let it melt inside a giant bag
08:49 < ForrestFlanagan> then pull the water from the bag to the fancy bottled water plant on your boat, and sell to whatever desperate mainland you can anchor outside
08:50 < ForrestFlanagan> or heck, pipeline it
08:51 < kanzure> i dunno how roads would work over a bunch of icebergs. you would need something cheap and easy to reconfigure, since you would be replacing icebergs a lot.
08:52 < kanzure> plus, you would need some way to do the end bridging (hard to put an iceberg on shore)
08:52 < kanzure> (or near a beach. because shallow.)
08:54 < ForrestFlanagan> could use an explosive to lift the iceberg onto shore
08:55 < kanzure> you can't just have a cliff or drop-off
08:55 < kanzure> probably cranes... oh well.
08:56 < kanzure> yeah i guess you could do cranes between each iceberg too
08:56 < ForrestFlanagan> monorail
08:57 < ForrestFlanagan> er, suspended monorail -- skycars
08:57 < ForrestFlanagan> you know I'm not sure if land bridging is all that practical
08:58 < ForrestFlanagan> the ice road truckers have a hard enough time, and they're going over smooth surfaces
08:58 < kanzure> are those trucks really appropriate for that terrain though.
09:00 < TMA> isn't waikiki too hot to sustain the iceberg for a decent amount of time?
09:00 < kanzure> what's decent?
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09:08 < kanzure> a month might be doable. depends on how big it is.
09:10 < fenn> you can just tow a long bag of water, it's much more hydrodynamic
09:10 < kanzure> clean water wasn't my goal
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09:31 < TMA> with 30 degrees (?C) temperature difference air-ice and 22 to 26 degrees difference on the water-ice boundary I would expect the thawing be pretty fast (the heat transfer rate is proportional to the temperature difference and surface area)
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09:46 < kanzure> thawing is fine as long as you still have surface area and at least some mass
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10:23 < kanzure> https://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/235616048/
10:33 < kanzure> ForrestFlanagan: suspended rails/ropes sounds about right.
10:37 < kanzure> plus you could use lots of ropes and cables to keep the whole structure in some sort of quasi-stable positioning
10:37 < kanzure> and nachors
10:37 < kanzure> .. anchors.
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13:39 < nmz787> anyone in SF later this week?
13:44 < kanzure> andytoshi is in SF today
13:44 < kanzure> maaku is in the general area, you should meet maaku
13:44 < kanzure> and you could also hang out with fenn
13:46 < kanzure> and juul
13:52 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9197
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14:31 < juul> yeah i'm around
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15:32 < proofoflogic> fenn I think you asked why anyone would use randomized search algorithms
15:32 < proofoflogic> a good example of this is in constraint satisfaction
15:33 < proofoflogic> the non
15:33 < proofoflogic> (oops)
15:34 < kanzure> whowhat
15:34 < proofoflogic> (let me know if this is off topic for the channel)
15:36 < proofoflogic> the non-random algorithms for constraint satisfaction tend to look like: (1) propagate constraints to eliminate possible variable-values (2) use a heuristic to choose a variable to branch on (3) use a heuristic to choose value ordering (4) for each value of the variable, reduce the problem by looking for solutions which use that specific value, recurring to
15:36 < proofoflogic> (1)
15:37 < proofoflogic> (it's like a special case of branch and bound algorithms)
15:40 < proofoflogic> random search for this problem instead (1) choose values at random for all the variables (2) randomly change values which are currently violating constraints, until nothing is violating constraints anymore
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15:48 < andytoshi> i'm in mountain view until monday the 28th. in SF today.
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16:55 < kanzure> andytoshi: gimme a link to the stream
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17:08 < delinquentme> Anyone in here good at applied calculus?
17:09 < delinquentme> kanzure, ^ knwo anyone?
17:11 < kanzure> ask your question
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17:15 < delinquentme> I have two steppers driving 2 separate syringe pumps.  I have a given flowrate Im attempting to maintain.  During the pumping these syringes will actuate back-and-forth: dispensing and filling.  At the inflection point where one switches from pumping to filling ... I've designed a function to decelerate one and simultaneously accelerate the other.
17:16 < delinquentme> My question is given the inverse relationship between step-delay and volume dispensed... I need an equation which will hold the flow-rate constant
17:17 < kanzure> are they the same size
17:17 < delinquentme> both syringes are the same diameter and total volume... yes
17:17 < kanzure> are they the same fluid
17:17 < delinquentme> yeap
17:22 < kanzure> you already have your deceleration and acceleration timesteps, why do you need anything else?
17:24 < kanzure> ("I've designed a function to...")
17:25 < delinquentme> because the cumulative flowrate at that inflection (deceleration / acceleration) point isn't consistent
17:26 < delinquentme> currently the control software give a time-linear deceleration .. which doesn't correspond to a linear volume /time deceleration
17:30 < kanzure> ok. and other than the inflection point, it's fine if you use linear acceleration and linear deceleration?
17:37 < delinquentme> Right. Thats currently what im doing ... however its clearly not linear flow
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18:21 < darsie> hi
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18:43 < kanzure> greetings
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19:08 < kanzure> http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/12/anonymity-is-hard/
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21:16 < kanzure> bloop
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22:58 < Aurelius> blorp
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23:54 < andytoshi> kanzure no stream, sorry. recording sometime tomorrow..
--- Log closed Tue Nov 22 00:00:17 2016