--- Log opened Sun Dec 11 00:00:35 2016
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08:09 <@kanzure> cryptography is ugh
08:09 <@kanzure> i was trying to fix the proof-of-publication client-side validation scheme that i proposed here http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-03.log
08:09 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
08:10 < kanzure> the list of output hashes can be eliminated if you assume that all spends are only valid if they appear in a certain location in the merkle tree (hence eliminating the possibility of double spends in the same block)
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08:48 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13151694 "A good candidate for this process is the accumulation of transthyretin amyloid. This appears linked with mortality due to heart disease in younger old people (70-100), but only in 10% of cases based on analysis to date. Yet in supercentenarians, those 110 or older, transthyretin amyloidosis is the primary cause of death, based on the small number ...
08:48 < kanzure> ...of autopsies carried out by those capable of such analysis. No presently available form of medicine does anything to reduce levels of this amyloid, and nor is there any presently available therapy that even aims at that goal. However, there is a company, Pentraxin Therapeutics, that has a therapy capable of clearing this form of amyloid, somewhere in the glacial processes of Big Pharma develop...
08:48 < kanzure> ...ment. Promising trial results were reported in 2015."
09:12 < adlai> kanzure: how do you propose to make 'shares' spendable?
09:12 < kanzure> OP_RETURN 'colored coins'
09:12 < kanzure> plus lightning
09:13 < adlai> also, holy logs. wtf.
09:14 < kanzure> alternatively--- in a merkle tree scheme (like i described above in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-03.log etc), you can have shares spendable because everything is client-side validaiton and you can remit payments of arbitrarily small size (as long as the client-side consensus rules allow for it-- which would be a good thing to implement)
09:14 < kanzure> but that's a ways off
09:15 < adlai> i'm not sure that colored coins are useful for trading things worth less than the dust limit. you still need to pay tx fees for transferring the colored coin
09:15 < kanzure> without a way to aggregate pubkeys i'm afraid my merkle tree scheme has O(1) performance because you need to include a list of pubkeys in every block :(
09:16 < kanzure> adlai: yes, it's true that you need to pay transaction fees on lightning network transactions. however, it's merely a transport layer for the tiny amounts----- it's useful only if you have a multi-hop lightning network with almost everyone accepting these values.
09:16 < adlai> what i was thinking of a while back, in the context of p2pool, was having dusty payouts go into a multisig, basically mining into a payment channel. this is also a very half-baked idea, needs lots of further thought.
09:16 < kanzure> yes i made a similar proposal recently as a hard-fork actually--- but for old tiny utxos
09:16 < kanzure> in particular i was thinking about what happens when the average transaction fee is permanently greater than lots of people's entire savings in small utxos
09:17 < kanzure> you could have a consensus rule that all of the old utxos be pruned, and instead you get a magic coinbase output with multisig of all the P2PK utxos that you deleted
09:17 < kanzure> see section "Recovering and spending tiny UTXOs (below the average transaction fee)" http://diyhpl.us/wiki/bitcoin/somewhat-open-problems-draft/
09:17 < kanzure> or more details in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-11-24.log
09:18 < kanzure> the downside is that you would have to find all the users that are now lumped together into that multisig :D
09:18 < kanzure> which is probably impossible. also, lots of DoS issues in that multisig group---- probably various nefarious/adversarial actors that will never show up to meet the group anyway. hehe.
09:19 < JayDugger> What do you two mean by "shares" in this context? Should I go read last Saturday's log from #bitcoin-wizards? Or does some better introductione xist?
09:19 < kanzure> unfortunately the miners call it "shares" when you submit a weak PoW to the pool :(
09:19 < adlai> JayDugger: mining pools have a concept of blocks with difficulty lower than that of the main network
09:20 < JayDugger> and kanzure, you meant "weak" as "blocks with difficulty < main network difficulty?"
09:20 < adlai> so you can prove that you're doing mining work (although you can't prove that you're not withholding the valid work)
09:20 < JayDugger> I can follow that, thank you both. How on earth did that get the name "shares?"
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09:21 < JayDugger> As some sort of label for a share of effort in a mining pool?
09:22 < JayDugger> (Somewhere out there, a young graduate student should be writing a thesis on the etymology of Bitcoin and blockchain technical vocabulary.)
09:22 < adlai> the number of such shares you submit to the pool is entered into whatever formula is used to slice up the reward whenever a valid block is found
09:22 < JayDugger> (But that probably isn't happening.)
09:23 < JayDugger> Okay, that makes some sense to me. Thank you for taking the time to explain it.
09:23 < adlai> eh i know somebody who might conceivably do this, he's studying CS + linguistics and hears me babble about bitcoin all the time
09:23 < kanzure> https://bitcoin.org/en/vocabulary
09:23 < JayDugger> Thank you for not saying "LMGTFW."
09:23 < adlai> there's quite a difference between 'dictionary' and 'thesis on etymology'
09:24 < JayDugger> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pooled_mining
09:25 < JayDugger> I'm tempted to agree by calling one useful and the other make-work, but that's mean.
09:26 < kanzure> adlai: jl2012 had a scheme where, if you encourage address/pubkey reuse, you can aggregate utxos from the same pubkey, even after the utxos themselves are too small to spend (in terms of satoshi per byte for the required signatures)
09:26 < kanzure> (which he mentioned in the same log)
09:27  * adlai would love to stay and talk about bitcoin but he should probably review the material from all the classes he skipped today
09:29 < adlai> maybe refugees of academia here have advice regarding this one question - next semester i have to take an intro programming course, which teaches python. apparently dodging the requirement is totally impossible, because my programming experience is practical (as opposed to academic), but it may be possible to take a more advanced CS class instead of the intro one.
09:29 <@cluckj> aren't your classes over yet? ouch
09:29 < kanzure> my recommendation is to drop out and burn the school down.
09:29  * adlai just started his academic adventure! BSc in Chemistry at Tel Aviv U
09:30 < adlai> in a parallel universe that has already happened
09:30 <@cluckj> CS classes in college didn't teach me any useful programming language skills
09:30 < adlai> i'm not expecting to learn useful programming skills, i view it more as taking another math class
09:30 < adlai> the question is whether i should even try to do that, or just stay in the intro class which will be a lot less work
09:31 <@cluckj> it's probably a theory class
09:31 < adlai> supposedly i should be able to never attend a single lecture, and only show up for the exam
09:31 <@cluckj> lol
09:31 < kanzure> adlai: i think tromer works at tel aviv, you should check if he's around.  he is doing theoretical computer science things.
09:31 < kanzure> and bitcoin things
09:31 <@cluckj> it's a computer science course, not a programming course?
09:32 <@cluckj> skipping the lectures might be dangerous
09:32 < adlai> the required course is intro programming.
09:32 < kanzure> adlai: http://www.tau.ac.il/~tromer/
09:32 < kanzure> he works on libsnark etc
09:32 < adlai> the proposed option is to pick an interesting course out of the entire CS curriculum, and lobby the chemistry dept to let me take that instead
09:33 <@cluckj> aside from burning the place down, my advice is to suck it up because you might actually learn something useful :P
09:33 < adlai> or i guess lobby the chem dept to let me replace the intro programming course with a theoretical CS one, and then lobby the CS dept to let me take the theoretical course without any prerequisits
09:33 < kanzure> also check who the hell is teaching it. if it's tromer, take the damn class.
09:33 <@cluckj> hah
09:33 <@cluckj> ^
09:33 < adlai> lolololol i doubt tromer is teaching "Intro Programming for Non-programmers"
09:33 < kanzure> *shrug*
09:33  * adlai is in the equivalent calc & linalg classes, it's a blast
09:34 < adlai> linear algebra is a year for real math students, only one semester for us
09:34 < kanzure> if you're not careful, he might try to abduct you into working in his research group
09:34 <@cluckj> you'll have fun in physical chemistry if you are good at math
09:34 < kanzure> "Head, Laboratory for Experimental Information Security (LEISec)"
09:35 < kanzure> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/leisec.html
09:35 < kanzure> ah right, he did the acoustic key extraction stuff. if you hum a few notes, he'll guess your private key with like 100% accuracy, or somthing.
09:35 < chris_99> ooh
09:35 < chris_99> lots of cool looking stuff
09:36 < adlai> the main reason i'm not burning the place down is because i'm in this less-shitty thing, ... damnit i can't find an english page explaining it
09:36 < adlai> ( https://exact-sciences.tau.ac.il//yedion/2016-17/chemistry_single_major_research )
09:36 <@cluckj> cool
09:36 < adlai> tl;dr - BSc + reading papers with professors and possibly assisting them in their research during the 2nd and 3rd years
09:37 <@cluckj> going to follow that up with grad school?
09:38 < kanzure> adlai: it would be exceedingly helpful if you were to become an expert at experimental setup for http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
09:38 < adlai> perhaps. it was mentioned in their brochure that they consider PhD applicants directly from this program
09:38 <@cluckj> nice, don't decide on grad school until you survive undergrad :)
09:38 < adlai> ofc
09:40 < adlai> our first paper reading is in a couple weeks, discussing http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1333284
09:40 < kanzure> .title
09:40 < adlai> .title
09:40 < yoleaux> Diffusion-Limited Aggregation: A Model for Pattern Formation
09:40 < yoleaux> Diffusion-Limited Aggregation: A Model for Pattern Formation
09:40 < adlai> kanzure: JINX
09:40  * adlai dances
09:40 < adlai> kanzure kanzure kanzure
09:41 < adlai> :D
09:41 < kanzure> have you seen things like,
09:41 < kanzure> "Generation of solution and surface gradients using microfluidic systems" https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4fde/5f85b28ed0f8516d35819af32e8c60685e42.pdf
09:42 < adlai> re: CS professors at TAU, i'd probably lobby to take one of the courses taught by http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~bchor/
09:43 < kanzure> you have all the libsnarks people right there, why would you take computer science classes from anyone else
09:43 < adlai> seeing as i've had dinner at his house a buncha times
09:43 < adlai> and he does bioinformatics things
09:43 < adlai> lulzy 'disclaimer' at the bottom of bchor's site
09:44 < kanzure> similarly,
09:44 < kanzure> "Generation of gradients having complex shapes using microfluidic networks" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Generation%20of%20gradients%20having%20complex%20shapes%20using%20microfluidic%20networks.pdf
09:44 < adlai> ("East side" = sciences, "West side" = liberal arts)
09:45 <@cluckj> hahaha
09:47 < adlai> kanzure: thanks for the papers! i'm not sure there'll be time to get to them, though, given that our homework is to bring along concise answers to questions such as "what is a fractal" and "what is brownian motion"
09:47 < adlai> "there'll be time" = i'll read them, but i'm not sure i'll have a chance to discuss them at the meeting
09:48 < adlai> first meeting is handholdy, everybody reads the same paper, we go over it together. next meetings should be more interesting - everybody gets a different paper, has to tl;dr it for the others.
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10:20 < Fausta> george church isn't the church-turing guy is he
10:21 < kanzure> no
10:21 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M._Church
10:24 < Fausta> looks like a genius
10:25 < kanzure> he seems to do work things, unlike kurzweil
10:25 < Fausta> what do you mean work things
10:25 < kanzure> he does things that aren't science promotion
10:25 < Fausta> oh you mean actual work
10:25 < kanzure> indeed!
10:26 < Fausta> I thought you meant he teaches classes and serves on committees
10:26 <@cluckj> aka real work
10:27 < Fausta> he's pretty old
10:27 < Fausta> he needs to hurry up with the 1/x
10:28 < Fausta> x -> 0
10:28 < kanzure> he published an interesting approach for connectomics and brain scanning, based on DNA sequencing instead of on optical scanning
10:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Rosetta%20brains:%20A%20strategy%20for%20molecularly-annotated%20connectomics%20-%20Marblestone%20-%20Church%20-%20Boyden%20-%202014.pdf
10:35 < Fausta> so is he one of the "we will upload our minds" people
10:36 < kanzure> he seems to be more along the lines of "hmm this is an interesting idea, i wonder how that might work"
10:40 < Fausta> he looks like Santa
10:40 < Fausta> a Santa with a singularity in his bag
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10:49 < Fausta> there is a guy who doesn't even look nerdy sitting next to me with a D & D manual
10:49 < Fausta> has this become mainstream
10:49 < kanzure> it's a fun way to spend time
10:49 < kanzure> yes, around the time that vin diesel started uploading D&D youtube videos
10:51 < Fausta> that is an actor so I am sensing sarcasm
10:51 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLEMb_RIZ3o
10:51 < yoleaux> D&Diesel with Vin Diesel (Extended Version) - YouTube
10:52 < Fausta> nice name, yoleaux
10:52 < Fausta> on vit seulement une temps?
10:52 < Fausta> idk
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10:54 < adlai> what exactly is "science promotion"?
10:54 < adlai> how does this contrast which what i've noticed recently, the trend to get young folx to train in engineering rather than research
10:55 < kanzure> the stuff that kurzweil is doing all day
10:55 < kanzure> writing books about some sort of glorious future that will happen all you have to do is sit back and watch -- total waste of time.....
10:55 < kanzure> hint: things don't happen just because you wait; you have to do things.
10:56 < Fausta> kurzweil actually is capable of doing actual work, too
10:57 < kanzure> he was in the past-- he worked on optical character recognition in the 1970s
10:57 < adlai> ah yes this fallacy has sadly corrupted the mind of a friend, these days he rambles about the impending postscarcity instead of reading the programming books i sent him
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11:03 < Fausta> he also invented that keyboard
11:04 < Fausta> I guess the question is whether we have enough of the basic science already discovered that now all we need to do is focus on engineering
11:04 < Fausta> to bring about nanobots etc., but I think the answer is prob no
11:05 < kanzure> biology is molecular nanotechnology, proteins are what folks should be aiming for (or DNA origami)
11:05 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
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11:52 < Fausta> who was that rogue
11:53 < Fausta> kanzure you are a programmer right
11:53 < Fausta> are you the guy with the biotech bachelor's
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12:20 <@cluckj> kanzure's education supercedes attempts at qualification
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12:45 < nmz787> adlai: you definitely should get into a research lab this year
12:46 < nmz787> adlai: I would try to do it before next summer (or your first major school break, if they give you a break like they do here)
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12:52 < nmz787> hmm, from that paper adlai posted "In many natural settings, however, convection simply cannot occur. In those cases, diffusion usually dominates the transport. Consider the formation of river networks, frost on glass, or veins of minerals in geologic formations"
12:52 < nmz787> where convection is defined as "the movement caused within a fluid by the tendency of hotter and therefore less dense material to rise, and colder, denser material to sink under the influence of gravity, which consequently results in transfer of heat."
12:53 < nmz787> so the seems like in that context you could assume that rainfail is a convective process (phase change, density change, which then is more affected by gravity)
12:53 < nmz787> and thus disproving their river formation is diffusion only thing
12:54 < nmz787> or at least poking holes at that
12:55 < kanzure> Fausta: i am not sure if i have any education at all
12:55 < kanzure> Fausta: yes i write code and do programming things
12:55 < nmz787> "Thomas C. Halsey is Chief Computational Scientist at ExxonMobil"
12:55 < nmz787> big oil and gas is in on providing us weirdo abstractions
12:56 < nmz787> kanzure: you took a few college courses, college boy!
12:56 < kanzure> and i regret all of it
12:56 < nmz787> kanzure: you even have a publication
12:56 < nmz787> you academic elitists
12:56 < nmz787> thinking you're too cool for school
12:57  * nmz787 continues to read
12:58 < nmz787> this is really strange, now it seems to me that diffusion and convection are inextricably linked... maybe I should just get back to BRLCAD
12:59 < nmz787> i mean, add heat, molecule's electrons jiggle more, density reduces because shit is moving around further due to increased heat-jiggling... density reduction means more space utilized, which means less mass per volume, thus less affected by gravity per molecule... so you start moving, but you're also jiggling a bunch and mosh-pitting around more than you were
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13:00 < nmz787> even if the density apparently doesn't change with increased heat, at least in a given region of temperature.... the effect would just be minimal (at least enough that you could probably discard the effect in engineering calculations)
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13:00 < nmz787> but still present
13:01 <@cluckj> lol
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15:42 < kanzure> 'system architect' of infinipath weighs in on infiniband vs omnipath https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13152489
15:46 < kanzure> "A molecular mechanism for the origin of a key evolutionary innovation, the bird beak and palate, revealed by an integrative approach to major transitions in vertebrate history" http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evo.12684/abstract
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16:52 < chris_99> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaumUp4GpCw
16:52 < chris_99> .title
16:52 < yoleaux> Roche 454 GS FLX+ DNA Genome sequencer teardown - YouTube
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16:54 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/807703836475461632
16:54 < yoleaux> $500k Roche 454 GS FLX+ DNA Genome sequencer teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaumUp4GpCw (@mikelectricstuf)
16:55 < kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roche-454-Life-Sciences-Genome-Sequencer-FLX-/201745134390?rmvSB=true
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18:23 < ebowden> kanzure, in an attempt to get my goat, every time I talk about anything involving novel treatments, some of which use SLNP delivery, a friend of mine says something along the lines of "You and your nanobots." or "Nanobots are not the solution to all of life's problems.".
18:26 < kanzure> you pick weird friends
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20:27 < nmz787> wow that video has 10k views already
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20:30 < kanzure> probably youtube subscribers
20:43 <@fenn> instead of "shares" you could call them "likes"
20:45 < kanzure> in bitcoin mining?
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21:33 < nmz787> it was a pretty good video, I had it on my TV while I was programming
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22:01 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNhKNip1cJk
22:01 < yoleaux> Ultrasound pulse and receive using OpenUltrasound PCB and common piezo discs - YouTube
22:06 < kanzure> various bitcoin things and schemes http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-11.log
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23:08 < kanzure> "Universal accumulators with efficient nonmembership proofs" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/accumulators/Universal%20accumulators%20with%20efficient%20nonmembership%20proofs.pdf
23:23 < kanzure> "Sleep viewed as a state of adaptive inactivity" http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v10/n10/abs/nrn2697.html
23:26 < kanzure> MRI of killer whale brain https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sam_Ridgway/publication/301686743_Neuroanatomy_of_the_killer_whale_Orcinus_orca_a_magnetic_resonance_imaging_investigation_of_structure_with_insights_on_function_and_evolution/links/5738a30008aea45ee83eb126.pdf
23:29 < kanzure> "Diffusible iodine-based contrast-enhanced computed tomography (diceCT): an emerging tool for rapid, high-resolution, 3-D imaging of metazoan soft tissues" http://www.ohio.edu/people/witmerl/Downloads/2016_Gignac_et_al._diceCT_technique.pdf
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 12 00:00:36 2016