--- Log opened Sun Feb 19 00:00:37 2017
00:33 < nmz787_> .wik Whispering-gallery wave
00:33 < yoleaux> "Whispering-gallery waves, or whispering-gallery modes, are a type of wave that can travel around a concave surface. Originally discovered for sound waves in the whispering gallery of St Paul's Cathedral, they can exist for light and for other waves, with important applications in nondestructive testing, lasing, cooling and sensing, as  ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whispering-gallery_wave
00:33 < nmz787_> "Light exerts a radial pressure as it circulates within a whispering-gallery resonator. If the resonator supports mechanical modes, then this pressure provides a way for these modes to interact with the light field."
00:33 < nmz787_> https://www.vahala.caltech.edu/Research/Optomechanics
00:33 < nmz787_> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/321/5893/1172.full?ijkey=11bmEqq0xrhlk&keytype=ref&siteid=sci
00:33 < nmz787_> .title
00:33 < yoleaux> Cavity Optomechanics: Back-Action at the Mesoscale | Science
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03:40 < poppingtonic> chris_99: how much do you expect this AFM to cost to build?
03:40 < poppingtonic> Who else has built one like this?
03:42 < chris_99> i'm not sure now, some of the optics stuff are more costly than i thought, for instance even a quadrant photodetector is ?37, then a beam splitter is around ?30, i've been trying to find more DIY AFMs but they don't seem to be as common as STMs, kanzure posted some good links yesterday though, and i found a good MIT one sec
03:42 < chris_99> https://www.media.mit.edu/nanoscale/courses/AFMsite/index.html
03:48 < poppingtonic> total cost: $13,373
04:10 < chris_99> some of the things in their BOM are insanely priced like the PCI card for $2k
04:16 < poppingtonic> https://www.media.mit.edu/nanoscale/courses/AFMsite/AFMfull.jpg
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05:50 < kanzure> blort
05:51 < JayDugger> trolb
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06:50 < JayDugger> And in today's "I hate $DAYJOB," the HVAC doesn't work because someone jerry-rigged it to cool avionics under the  control of the ARINC 429 bus driven from a MVME-based avionics interface controller and directed by code copy-and-pasted from another machine entirely. P.S.: It didn't work there either. P.P.S.: Comments explaining how the code works don't count if the code doesn't work.
06:51 < kanzure> have you considered, you know, not working?
06:51 < JayDugger> Yes. I can't yet afford it.
06:52 < JayDugger> Most likely still a decade and a half away.
06:54 < JayDugger> Of course, that leaves the question "What do I do when I grow up," just removes the urgency from it.
07:06 < kanzure> same thing we do every night, pinky
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07:36 < JayDugger> Point taken.
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09:20 < eb3c90> The first draft of my human enhancement manifesto.  https://github.com/eb4890/agorint/blob/master/docs/manifesto.md Now I can forget about it for a while.
09:24 < chris_99> delinquentme, what do you use to hold the cantilever for your STMs out of interest, and is the cantilever attached to some kind of micromanipulator, to lower onto the samples?
09:24 < eb3c90> Anyone else got one?
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09:56 < mosasaur> eb3c90: no, but I will think about it now
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10:00 < mosasaur> eb3c90: seeing that your plan is inconsistent, there's certainly a need for me to write one a better one, or to convince you to rewrite it
10:01 < mosasaur> for example how will people cooperate without some instance enforcing it?
10:02 < mosasaur> also, a basic income is not a handout, it's a compensation for exactly those freedoms you gave up to enhance global cooperation
10:03 < mosasaur> for example every human has a right to a certain amount of sunlight, say the total amount of light that reaches the earth divided by the amount of people
10:04 < mosasaur> maybe make some allowances for certain things I overlooked, like climate control
10:04 < kanzure> wat
10:04 < kanzure> no politics. get out.
10:04 < eb3c90> mosaur: Write your own, I'd be interested to read it.
10:05 < eb3c90> But lets not pollute this channel with discussion of them.
10:06 < mosasaur> this radical self sufficiency will result naturally because once it is cheaper to create solar energy than it is transport it from a nearby centralized power source, decentralized solar will be unbeatable
10:06 < mosasaur> what is this already politics, how weird
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10:07 < mosasaur> we're not in pioneer mode anymore, we have to share this system. We can back to cowboy once we're in space
10:08 < mosasaur> go
10:13 < mosasaur> kanzure: seriously, is climate change denial allowed here?
10:14 < mosasaur> I might have to rethink my position about whether this channel is rational at all
10:15 < kanzure> sigh
10:15 < cluckj> lol what
10:16 < mosasaur> what was it then? basic income? that could be seen as politics possibly
10:16 < kanzure> all of this is politcs; get back to work, slackers.
10:17 < cluckj> what if....my work is politics?
10:17  * cluckj ducks
10:17 < kanzure> see above, get out
10:17 < mosasaur> ah the old lesswrong trope, rational people won't fall for that one anymore
10:18 < kanzure> lesswrong users are also banned
10:18 < mosasaur> got that one covered
10:18 < cluckj> :)
10:19 < mosasaur> anyway their idea was, politics is the mind killer, let's not do that, but that was still politics
10:20 < kanzure> or they were losers who can't do any hard work
10:20 < kanzure> seriously, fan fiction? wtf
10:20 < mosasaur> I see
10:21 < cluckj> the ban on politics here is to frame and make boundaries for this channel :P
10:22 < mosasaur> the invisible hand of common sense, it works so much better when everyone denies it exists
10:22 < kanzure> why are you here anyay?
10:22 < kanzure> *anyway
10:23 < mosasaur> I was getting tired of VR programmers not wanting to discuss lasers
10:23 < cluckj> that's not really the point?
10:24 < mosasaur> also, I see fenn is here, he seems capably of having a normal discussion with
10:25 < mosasaur> not sure if that sentiment is reciprocal though
10:30 < kanzure> if you have a climate geoengineering proposal , make it, but don't make a political stink about it.
10:30 < kanzure> goes for eb3c90 too
10:31 < mosasaur> if you think something stinks tell me exactly what it was
10:31 < chris_99> Would it be impractical to 'fix' holes in the ozone layer, by spraying ozone?
10:32 < kanzure> the most optimal way of fixing the ozone layer is removing it
10:33 < kanzure> not sure the holes need to be fixed if other climate variables are controlled
10:33 < chris_99> how would removing it help?
10:35 < kanzure> oh help?
10:35 < mosasaur> it blocks UV radiation? not sure if we can survive without it
10:35 < kanzure> sun shades
10:36 < mosasaur> see that's why I prefer fenn
10:37 < kanzure> giant sun shades are relatively simple to make http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Self-deployed%20extremely%20large%20low%20mass%20space%20structures%20-%202007.pdf
10:38 < mosasaur> although I wouldn't think it beyond them to suggest vertical farming behind uv filters
10:38 < chris_99> dumb question do sun shades block all light though, or just uv?
10:38 < kanzure> depends on material
10:39 < kanzure> i don't think the definition of sun shade excludes it
10:42 < mosasaur> I'd rather have a system that is failsafe, and not dependent on some instance to course correct it continually
10:43 < mosasaur> although we might already be in that situation
10:45 < eb3c90> kanzure: Rgr. I do things.. just because.
10:48 < mosasaur> my proposal is just to stop resisting local solar energy generation
10:55 < kanzure> if we set the atmosphere on fire, we could have large scale global access to energy production (if we configured it for a slow 1,000 year burn)
10:55 < streety> what would be the benefit of allowing the ozone layer to be completely destroyed?
10:56 < streety> what component of the atmosphere is combustible?
10:56 < chris_99> i was wondering that
10:57 < kanzure> i guess i should figure that out soon.
10:57 < kanzure> instead of talking it up
10:57 < kanzure> still, life is completely possible in the absence of atmosphere, and it would also help with space tech development
10:57 < mosasaur> ozone layer is mostly oxygen, don't know what he wants to burn with it
10:58 < mosasaur> er, is that even the case
10:58 < eb3c90> One of my favourite posts of specialisers and partial application (for those of you into functional programming) http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html  I think it may be relevant to building intelligences too, as languages are an  important part of them.
10:58 < mosasaur> it says ozone layer, but how much oxygen does it really have
10:59 < streety> mosasaur: no it isn't. Ozone is only a small fraction, oxygen is higher but still not close to 'mostly'
10:59 < mosasaur> thanks streety
11:00 < eb3c90> kanzure: Nuclear fire? http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/66276/can-open-unsafe-nuclear-fusion-reaction-burn-the-atmosphere
11:00 < streety> Getting to space despite the atmosphere seems a lot simpler than removing the atmosphere as a first step in getting to space
11:01 < kanzure> removing the atmosphere is for energy and also getting rid of climate change enthusiasts
11:01 < kanzure> and climate change denialists (and believers)
11:03 < streety> doing it for energy seems inferior to half a dozen+ technologies
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11:04 < cluckj> yeah but you get energy and have the planet de-atmosphered
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11:05 < eb3c90> I wonder if we will ever get controlled nuclear fires hot enough to fuse nitrogen.
11:13 < mosasaur> but thats the thing, transporting electricity from a fusion reactor to your house has a cost, even if it is only maintenance of the network
11:14 < mosasaur> if solar drops below that, it wouldn't help even if the nuclear reactor gave away its energy for free
11:17 < eb3c90> mosasaur: Sorry, I don't want to engage on that point. Currently I'm interested in whether we will be able to, not whether we will (or should).
11:18  * eb3c90 heads off to read about the solar fusion cycle and then try and code.
11:21 < kanzure> "Smile and laughter elicited by electrical stimulation of the frontal operculum" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Fausto_Caruana/publication/304778629_Smile_and_Laughter_Elicited_by_Electrical_Stimulation_of_the_Frontal_Operculum/links/5787a00208aecf56ebcb4853.pdf
11:24 < mosasaur> eb3c90: you could at least have tried to counter with an argument about how far nuclear fusion devices could be miniaturized, once proven feasible
11:26 < kanzure> wasn't there at least one consumer electronics fission battery startup
11:27 < eb3c90> Fusion is passe as a power source. Now it is all about the kugelblitz.
11:27 < chris_99> i recall one using shipping containers kanzure, hadn't heard of any smaller than that though
11:34 < chris_99> https://www.disneyresearch.com/publication/quasistatic-cavity-resonance-for-ubiquitous-wireless-power-transfer/ -- the big pole looks somewhat unsightly though
11:39 < eb3c90> chris_99: I liked the proposal that used multiple antennae to create localised constructive interference points for wireless charging. I'll try and find a reference
11:40 < chris_99> cheers
11:41 < eb3c90> @chris_9 : https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b367/e1f526cf29b4e22585263989a792251693b2.pdf I'm not sure if this what I saw, but it is definitely thinking along similar lines
11:41 < eb3c90> @chris_9 : https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b367/e1f526cf29b4e22585263989a792251693b2.pdf I'm not sure if this what I saw before, but it is definitely thinking along similar lines
11:42 < eb3c90> I thought this was slack. Sorry for the repost!
11:42 < eb3c90> stupid meat fingers.
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11:51 < sachy> back to fusion - would Jupiter's atmosphere be able to sustain human-ignited fusion (like by H-bomb)?
11:52  * sachy tried to compute, but got banned from wolframalpha
11:53 < streety> probably depend on how deep detonation happened
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11:58 < streety> at least likelihood of it happening
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12:07 < kanzure> "Changes in sleep-wakefulness after kainic acid lesion of the preoptic area in rats" http://repository.ias.ac.in/13604/1/305.pdf
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12:11 < mosasaur> won't we need the hydrogen later, to reach the stars?
12:11 < mosasaur> always people trying to exploit the commons, or just fuck with it
12:14 < kanzure> "Effect of ambient temperature on sleep-wakefulness in normal and medial preoptic area lesioned rats" http://www.auditor.sro.org/bin/article.dll?TextOnly&3017&0&0
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12:46 < nmz787_> eb3c90: "scavenging on the periphery" I already resort to that...
12:55 < nmz787_> eb3c90: "you would be empowered to understand and control your world"  this is exactly WHY we have AI today...   "Instead of companies using robots to make you obsolete" companies are not self-sufficient and sentient entities... they are composed of numerous people acting in a mostly-concerted manner
13:00 < eb3c90> My coding for today is t@nmz787_ : Happy to talk about this off-list : )
13:01 < eb3c90> Huh. Fat-fingers strike again.
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13:24 < nmz787_> eb3c90: this isn't an off-list topic though
13:24 < nmz787_>  <eb3c90> AI currently is not a concern. It only becomes a concern when either a) AI has its own goals and concerns seperate from humans or b) it gets good enough to allows companies to be
13:24 < nmz787_>                formed where their directors get very deatached from the reality of other humans (think historic rulers if you want examples)
13:27 < eb3c90> @nmz787_: I got the impression from kanzure that discussion of "what should be done" was undesirable. What we can do and what we are doing is fine.
13:27 < nmz787_> eb3c90: AI doesn't scare me, even if its goals might not immediately be of interest to me, because I subscribe to this theory (currently)  <eb3c90> AI currently is not a concern. It only becomes a concern when either a) AI has its own goals and concerns seperate from humans or b) it gets good enough to allows companies to be
13:27 < nmz787_>                formed where their directors get very deatached from the reality of other humans (think historic rulers if you want examples)
13:27 < nmz787_> i mean https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
13:28 < nmz787_> eb3c90: we discuss 'what should be done' constantly in here... I don't know what threw kanzure off, specifically, it was a bit unclear
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13:30 < eb3c90> nmz787_: Cool. I'm having a read.
13:30 < nmz787_> I don't think my responses cross into his alert zone though, which I only intuitively sort of understand, therefore my lack of clarity on exactly what threw him off
13:31 < nmz787_> eb3c90: TL;DR; life tends to diffuse energy faster than non-life processes, and the universe wants to diffuse energy as fast as possible, so life is inevitable (or anything that diffuses energy more quickly, which I'd guess AI would fit into)
13:35 < nmz787_> I can get emu eggs for $25 each... not too far from here... they are HUGE
13:35 < nmz787_> I wonder if their embryo's heart is 10X larger than a chicken embryo's
13:37 < chris_99> have you seen cooked penguins eggs, they look weird, as they seem to be translucent rather than white
13:38 < eb3c90> It is an interesting article. A bunch more things I want to read from it. The self-replicating colloidal clusters.
13:40 < nmz787_> chris_99: no! I also haven't seen them advertised on craigslist :P and that was my cause for watching emu egg cooking videos :P
13:41 < chris_99> haha
13:42 < chris_99> http://i.imgur.com/pOf4rCP.jpg is supposedly one, they look very odd
13:44 < eb3c90> nmz787_ : I think people could believe that and could still be worried that AIs will difuse energy better than them and be seperate from them, so the universe will prefer AIs to humans ;) . My main motivation for human augmentation is to try and build the thing though.
13:45 < nmz787_> chris_99: wow, that is really really different looking!
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13:46 < nmz787_> eb3c90: my point was, it is silly to me to care about the origin/composition of the diffusor... the universe doesn't
13:46 < chris_99> mmm
13:47 < nmz787_> eb3c90: we aren't the point of the universe, so why should I chain myself to thinking humans should exist forever?
13:53 < eb3c90> Humans probably won't exist forever, but it is interesting to try and exist as long as possible and do as much as possible. Push our limits. Probably just the 'being the ancestor of a long-line of survivors' speaking though.
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14:12 < kanzure> "Because difficulty is not the same for everyone: the impact of complexity in working memory is associated with cannabinoid 1 receptor genetic variation in young adults" http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09658211.2016.1172642
14:13 < kanzure> "Here, we have associated cannabinoid 1 (CB1) receptor genetic variation rs2180619 (AA, AG, GG), which is located in a potential CNR1 regulatory sequence, with performance in working memory. [...] the cost of the level of complexity in N-back paradigm was double for GG subjects than for AA subjects."
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14:21 < nmz787_> eb3c90: well that's when you start to talk about uploading, etc... I guess. We can probably keep existing and doing stuff in some other non-human vehicle
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14:38 < kanzure> "Memory-enhancement induced by hypothalamic-fornix deep brain stimulation" https://www.societyns.org/runn/2008/265-Memory%20enhancement%20induced%20by%20hypothalamic-fornix.pdf
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14:54 < kanzure> "Assessment of potential targets for deep brain stimulation in patients with Alzheimer's disease" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432890/
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15:20 < kanzure> "Specific deep brain stimulation for enhancement of memory" https://www.google.com/patents/US9403010
15:20 < kanzure> also there seems to be a follow-up patent, US20170014630, which does not seem to be indexed yet.
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17:59 < kanzure> "A phase II study of fornix deep brain stimulation in mild alzheimer's disease" http://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad160017 (2016)
18:02 < kanzure> "Another surgical innovation in DBS lead implantation is the development of intravascular DBS electrodes. The feasibility of intravascular electrodes for both neural stimulation and recording and stimulation has been demonstrated. Electrodes positioned temporarily within intracranial vessels enabled recording of both spontaneous and evoked EEG-like electrical activity (Driller et al., 1969), a...
18:02 < kanzure> ...nd this work was recently extended to multi-electrode recordings using a chronically implanted stent-like device (Oxley et al., 2016). Stimulation through the blood vessel wall is also possible, an example being endovascular stimulation of the vagus nerve (Nabutovsky et al., 2007)," from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5119052/
18:02 < kanzure> .title
18:02 < yoleaux> Proceedings of the Fourth Annual Deep Brain Stimulation Think Tank: A Review of Emerging Issues and Technologies
18:06 < kanzure> quite an interesting "Conflict of interest statement"
18:20 < kanzure> "Stimulation mapping of myelinated tracts in awake patients" http://content.iospress.com/articles/brain-plasticity/bpl160027
18:20 < kanzure> hehe: "In the same spirit, axonal DES has shown that disruption of the subcortical connectivity of the left posterior cingulate cortex reliably induced a breakdown in conscious experience [100, 101]. This acute phenomenon was mainly characterized by a transient behavioral unresponsiveness with loss of external connectedness (the patient described himself as in a dream, outside the operating ro...
18:20 < kanzure> ...om)."
18:23 < kanzure> "The difference between electrical microstimulation and direct electrical stimulation - towards new opportunities for innovative functional brain mapping?" https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/revneuro.2016.27.issue-3/revneuro-2015-0029/revneuro-2015-0029.xml
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19:52 < kanzure> blort
20:00 < fenn> sachy: shoemaker-levy shows that jupiter won't ignite from any reasonable (or unreasonable) sized explosion
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21:31 < superkuh> Doesn't seem to be a breakdown of conscious experience if they still perceived anything.
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23:56 < nmz787_> hmm, I couldn't find my pipette in my first search of the garage... I still have a few boxes that I haven't opened, but they seem to contain microscopes or glassware... it is very strange
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 20 00:00:06 2017