--- Log opened Sat Jul 22 00:00:56 2017
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01:49 < TMA> rk[ghost]: you have to pay taxes even on nonmonetary income, IIRC. the difference is that you do not _know_ the equivalent monetary amount, so you must do the valuation by some method -- and the method can be challenged by the tax authorities much more easily than when actual money change hands
01:50 < rk[ghost]> TMA: aye, i know there are some issues, but i will work on the kinks as they manifest.
01:52 < TMA> rk[ghost]: the other part of the problem is the leguminous volume -- I gather a non-negligible amount of storage would be needed even for negligible amounts of cryptocurrency.
01:54 < TMA> rk[ghost]: a natural extension is a BBCC -- bean backed crypto currency -- something akin to a bean-backed ETF
01:59 < rk[ghost]> TMA: i am very uneducated with terminology and such in this field.
01:59 < rk[ghost]> very likely i meanted a bean backed crypto currency.
02:00 < rk[ghost]> s/meanted/ment
02:01 < rk[ghost]> what is ETF?
02:37 < TMA> rk[ghost]: exchange traded fund
02:52 < rk[ghost]> ah, thanks. i will research:)
02:53 < rk[ghost]> of course, i cannot gain traction until i have large supply of beans, so that is my main focus in such regard.
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05:38 < kanzure> my attempt at a scheme for a merkle tree proof of nonmembership: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-07-21.log
05:43 < kanzure> load this up in zeronet http://127.0.0.1:43110/Antilibrary.bit/?p=1
05:45 < kanzure> me making some complaints about prediction markets https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14816947
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06:07 < kanzure> ok the joinmarket people have been thinking about nonmembership proofs too http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-07-22.log
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11:35 < streety> .wik merkle tree
11:35 < yoleaux> "In cryptography and computer science, a hash tree or Merkle tree is a tree in which every non-leaf node is labelled with the hash of the labels or values (in case of leaves) of its child nodes. Hash trees allow efficient and secure verification of the contents of large data structures. Hash trees are a generalization of hash lists and hash chains." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle_tree
12:02 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4d36332d Bryan Bishop: transcript: bram cohen talk on merkle sets and UTXO commitments >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2017-07-08-bram-cohen-merkle-sets/
12:03 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dde3dfce Bryan Bishop: add tweeter link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2017-07-08-bram-cohen-merkle-sets/
12:04 < kanzure> merkle sets and utxo commitments and stuff http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2017-07-08-bram-cohen-merkle-sets/
12:08 < kanzure> streety: the above transcript is relevant to your question about wtf is merkle tree
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12:19 < streety> thanks
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13:30 < pasky> kanzure: so is the 2x in segwit2x a good thing in the end, or are things going badly because of this?
13:32 < kanzure> some people complaining about biohack.me/grinders/stuff https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828191
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13:33 < kanzure> pasky: segwit2x is collusion among large companies to coercively upgrade the bitcoin network. there's no way to force anyone to participate in a hard-fork, so i think it will ultimately fail to safely transition the entire network.
13:33 < pasky> which does sound pretty bad :)
13:34 < kanzure> it's a lot of bluffing and hot air, tho. let them bluff and blow off steam.
13:34 < kanzure> miners have been false-signaling for hard-forks for years now. "false signaling" just means they throw up a bit flag on their bitcoin blocks, but it has no relationship to what software they are currently running or intend to run in the future.
13:35 < nmz787> rk[ghost]: yeah I guess beans store better than milk... my farmer friend never got many people to pay in btc, and I think the market volatility to USD made it so things weren't always in his favor
13:35 < kanzure> pasky: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6h612o/can_someone_explain_to_me_why_core_wont_endorse/divtc93/
13:35 < kanzure> http://www.coindesk.com/bip-91-locks-means-bitcoin-not-scaled-yet/
13:35 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6oksam/bip91_lockin_does_not_guarantee_segwit_will_be/
13:35 < pasky> awesome, thanks for the links!
13:35 < kanzure> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-segwit2x-scaling-proposal-core-developers-react/
13:35 < kanzure> https://cryptoinsider.com/lombrozo-corporate-agreements-protocol-changes-miss-point-bitcoin/
13:35 < pasky> Jenda`: ^
13:35 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@elombrozo/why-segwit2x-or-why-not-3b2a3917a2be
13:37 < kanzure> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/major-exchanges-will-consider-bitcoin-unlimited-new-asset/
13:37 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6mgecw/frankensegwit8x_testnet_irrecoverably_forks_a/
13:37 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@jimmysong/segwit2x-what-you-need-to-know-b747e6326266
13:38 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/sound8bits/comments/5xre70/the_origins_of_the_modern_blocksize_debate/
13:38 < kanzure> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-unlimited-miners-may-be-preparing-51-attack-bitcoin/ and https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/verified-chatlogs-why-jihan-and-jiang-want-to-block-segwit-at-all-cost-bbf068c5ce0f
13:38 < kanzure> peer review of segwit2x bip (which happened after the miners "agreed" to NYA? haha) https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014709.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014710.html
13:39 < kanzure> about false signaling https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6ns1o6/antpool_just_minded_their_first_bip91_block/dkbuetx/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6ntfhd/superb_segwit_uasf_bip148_segwit2x_bitcoinabc/dkc1al5/
13:39 < kanzure> okay that is all for now.
13:40 < pasky> Thanks. These links are awesome, people keep asking me about this for some reason.
13:41 < kanzure> i think there's a high chance that segwit doesn't get activated and no hard-fork happens. i also think there's a good chance that segwit gets activated, the hard-fork comes and go, but the hard-fork is ultimately meaningless.
13:43 < kanzure> right now we're in a "grace period" for bip91 activation after miners signalled for the activation of bip91-- so at the conclusion of the grace period, bip91 activation will occur. if miners were false signaling for bip91, then a few things could happen. if some of them were honest and some were dishonest, then there's a high chance of large reorgs occurring while the network duels it out. if ...
13:43 < kanzure> ...they were all false signaling, nothing will happen. if they all enforce bip91 activation, it will mean that segwit will be getting activated, but it also means that miners have agreed to collude against non-signaling miners-- a rather coercive turn of the story which i think might merit more thinking about proof-of-work hash function changes.
13:43 < kanzure> ( this is re: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6oksam/bip91_lockin_does_not_guarantee_segwit_will_be/ )
13:44 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/887643408612958209
13:44 < yoleaux> One potential outcome: no segwit activation this year, nothing happens. Solution: wait another year for segwit. No big deal. (@kanzure)
13:44 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/888247844829900800
13:44 < yoleaux> bip91 activates on block 477120, next difficulty retarget is 477792, so segwit should lock in on 479808 and activate on 481824 h/t @btcdrak (@kanzure)
13:44 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/888532551882727424
13:44 < yoleaux> @morcosa @jgarzik yes the bip91 style of soft-fork is probably something that should not be repeated, https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012173.html (@kanzure, in reply to tw:888181771317202945)
13:48 < kanzure> for some other perspectives see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14758587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14788663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809259
13:49 < pasky> ohhh I thought segwit is already a given, but it might not be so
13:51 < kanzure> right. it's hard to say. i think it's possible that miners might forego bip91 enforcement (although they would basically be saying they are dishonest.....).   if segwit doesn't get activated aug1, or at all this year, i think it's OK to wait aonther year for its activation-- a new activation scheme will be proposed, like bip8 or bip149 (not bip148).
14:10 < streety> nmz787: wouldn't the transaction fees also have made bitcoin unappealing for that type of use? I would assume most purchases would be for relatively small amounts
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14:38 < nmz787> streety: yeah I guess unless he saved up btc to convert to like an amazon gift card or something
15:59 < streety> I was thinking more about the transaction fee of receiving the payment from the customer
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16:11 < pasky> hah you can even trade the fork branches https://www.viabtc.com/convert/bcc
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16:48 < kanzure> .to yashgaroth look what you've done https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828191
16:48 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.
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17:51 < kanzure> blort
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18:11 < JayDugger> Break's over. Back on your heads.
18:25 < kanzure> i am not a spintop
19:01 < abetusk> Any suggestions on what to do in Berlin?
19:02 < kanzure> abetusk: find nils hitze and hang out with him
19:02 < kanzure> meredith patterson might be in your area, maradydd
19:04 < kanzure> matthias bock does diybio-berli
19:04 < kanzure> .. diybio-berlin.
19:06 < abetusk> is there a biohackerspace in Berlin?
19:07 < kanzure> abetusk: https://twitter.com/kojote
19:07 < kanzure> tell him i sent you :P
19:10 < kanzure> abetusk: yes https://www.biotinkering-berlin.de/
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19:12 < abetusk> looks defunct?
19:12 < kanzure> agree
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19:37 < kanzure> "real beef is deposited in GEO or SRA." what is this person talking about?
19:59 < cluckj> hamburgers?
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20:36 < kanzure> cluckj: something about bioinformatics.
20:37 < kanzure> from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828191
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23:09 < rk[ghost]> nmz787: aye stores great and.. is actually human food unlike milk. also i plan to focus on a different market than the average folks- so market volatility of USD is likely to cause friction.
23:10 < rk[ghost]> saw something interesting recently that could be related to hplus. was a human-dolphin interface system.
--- Log closed Sun Jul 23 00:00:57 2017