--- Log opened Fri Sep 01 00:00:06 2017
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00:55 < jrayhawk> https://blog.jolla.com/sailfishx/ POSIX OS being released for Sony Xperia X
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06:09 < kanzure> why you guys so boring
06:10 < juri_> busy hacking all of the things.
06:10 < redlegion> I'll be honest, I'm here to lurk. This is a damn decent place to pick up fascinating things.
06:11 < redlegion> The links and information flitting back and forth are pretty cool.
06:18 < kanzure> juri_: whatcha cooking on?
06:18 < redlegion> To be fair, the stuff i deal with day to day is really boring. Just linear encoders, steppers, and transducers.
06:27 < juri_> oh, the usual; trying to get 3d printers to eat the world.
06:27 < kanzure> is that a good idea?
06:27 < juri_> recently we've been eating a scanning electron microscope. no "interesting" results yet, however.
06:27 < kanzure> ok that is better
06:29 < juri_> last night's session resulted in our vacuum sensor talking to our PC, and someone starting to reverse engineer an x-ray backscatter detection system.
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08:01 < kanzure> yadda yadda http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
08:01 < kanzure> https://rationalvaccines.com/
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08:22 < fenn> tl;dr it was "unethical" because they failed to hire an ethics board
08:23 < kanzure> hmmm.
08:23 < kanzure> that doesn't sound right
08:24 < kanzure> sounds like 'ethical extortion'
08:24 < kanzure> ooh ooh 'rational extortion' !! someone call the outpost.
08:25 < kanzure> ("or else")
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10:48 < kanzure> david pearce is at it again ("genetically engineering a happy biosphere") wat? https://www.gene-drives.com/
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11:07 < kanzure> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603530/a-biohackers-plan-to-upgrade-dalmatians-ends-up-in-the-doghouse/
11:08 < kanzure> "According to the agency’s new regulatory proposal, it plans to treat the edited portion of the animal’s genome as a veterinary drug. That means that just like a new pill, edited dogs can’t be sold, or even given away, without first proving they are safe and work as intended, a process likely to incur costly studies and piles of paperwork. For instance, it took the creators of GM ...
11:08 < kanzure> ...“Aquabounty” salmon around 20 years to win approval to commercialize their faster-growing fish."
11:08 < kanzure> "Ishee’s plan is to purchase or build DNA that has the correct gene, as well as the molecular ingredients needed to perform the CRISPR gene editing. He would then add it to Dalmatian sperm before artificially inseminating a female. Hopefully, the mutated DNA letter would be repaired in at least some of the resulting litter of dogs."
11:09 < kanzure> "Whether Ishee can pull it off isn’t at all clear. In the past year, Ishee says, he’s tried to make “bioluminescent” mastiff puppies by adding DNA from glowing bacteria. Those experiments, intended as a test run for curing canine genetic diseases, have no so far been successful."
11:09 < kanzure> "Samantha Nicole Lotti, an animal science researcher at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, says the sperm technique Ishee wants to use can be unpredictable and still hasn’t been paired with CRISPR to repair a gene, the kind of gene editing he needs to do. “This does not mean it is not possible,” she notes."
11:09 < kanzure> ""Ishee, based in the small town of Mendenhall, also wonders whether the regulations from Washington should be disobeyed. During a conference call webcast on YouTube last week, he and another biohacker mulled what would happen if they just started curing dogs anyway, in an act of civil disobedience. “I feel like maybe the best thing is to just go ahead and produce the healthy animals and ...
11:09 < kanzure> ...then just tell people,” says Ishee. “We cured this disease, but the FDA won’t let us.”""
11:11 < kanzure> 20 years.   if they started selling, would they even have been in prison for 20 years anyway?
11:12 < kanzure> http://www.orbitalreflector.com/
11:19 < kanzure> http://splinternews.com/meet-the-guy-biohacking-puppies-to-make-them-glow-in-th-1793862258
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11:23 < maaku> .title https://research.googleblog.com/2017/08/transformer-novel-neural-network.html
11:23 < yoleaux> Research Blog: Transformer: A Novel Neural Network Architecture for Language Understanding
11:23 < aeiousomething> hi maaku
11:23 < yoleaux> 20 Aug 2017 03:32Z <maaku> aeiousomething: does it at least work though?
11:23 < yoleaux> 20 Aug 2017 03:33Z <maaku> aeiousomething: context: the modafinil
11:23 < aeiousomething> yes
11:23 < aeiousomething> it works
11:23 < maaku> good :)
11:23 < aeiousomething> :)
11:24 < aeiousomething> it's just ... like 100000x annoying that I have to be a pretend-criminal to get drugs I need to live
11:24 < maaku> .tell jcorgan looks like Google is exploring the word2vec -> semantic network idea I was musing with you about last time we met
11:24 < yoleaux> maaku: I'll pass your message to jcorgan.
11:24 < maaku> .tell jcorgan https://research.googleblog.com/2017/08/transformer-novel-neural-network.html
11:24 < yoleaux> maaku: I'll pass your message to jcorgan.
11:25 < maaku> kanzure: This Google research thing is interesting. They're using attentional networks for machine translation, but I'm convinced this is actually a vital component to AGI -- it allows you to extract conceptual networks from unsupervised learning
11:25 < maaku> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_network
11:26 < maaku> Also I believe this is a potentially better transcription framework than Deep Speech
11:31 < maaku> Instead of training English text -> French text, train input waveform -> transcribed text
11:33 < maaku> The first few layers are probably the same as Deep Speech, but then use these fully connected attentional layers to map from audio features -> transcribed text
11:34 < maaku> re: AGI I think you can do unsupervised clustering of features in these attentional networks to extract out semantic relationships
11:35 < maaku> much like word2vec does
11:36 < maaku> and that achieves a way to bridge connectionist approaches (neural nets) with GOFAI, and the combination of the two achiees most of what you'd want for an AGI
11:37 < aeiousomething> input waveform... doesn't that get affected by intonation
11:37 < aeiousomething> if you're talking about speech no wait you said text.. so the graphical representation as a waveform?
11:43 < fltrz> I played some more with the stimulated emission of phosphors: with the visible red light, I could draw "dark" spots on excited phosphor by depleting it, but I could not see the stimulated emission because the red light was much brighter
11:44 < fltrz> so I knew it existed, but no direct visibility
11:45 < fltrz> so today I desoldered an IR led from a remote, verified I could not see the IR at all (toggling on and off with doorbell button) even when looking in the LED
11:46 < fltrz> then I excited the phosphor again with UV, and stimulated emission with the IR led, expecting it to still be invisible, because perhaps the rate of stimulated emission being negligible to the spontaneous emission
11:47 < fltrz> but I could actually see clearly the phosphor light up more than the surrounding phosphor decaying, in a kind of wave, which then just as fast as it went bright also darkened to depletion, while the surrounding phosphor continued to glow
11:48 < fltrz> it reminds a little of the cinematographic effect of celluloid burning
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11:58 < maaku> aeiousomething: the raw PCM data, or a FFT or wavelet transform of it if you prefer
11:59 < maaku> traditional speech to text uses feature extraction. deep speech showed that using raw data on a deep and large enough CNN was better than that
12:00 < maaku> it learns not just the same features as were explicitly extracted before, but learns noise cancellationa and source separation too
12:00 < maaku> that would remain the same here, and then you'd layer the attentional thing on top
12:05 < fltrz> when you scroll up, the first 2 pictures at http://www.orbitalreflector.com/#sculpture I assume these are mating parts of the sculpture...
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12:34 < kanzure> need to prepare slides to give to metreon cascade @ DARPA/IARPA re: dna synthesis
12:34 < kanzure> for september meeting
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13:19 < kanzure> "Viral expression of DREADD proteins, both in-vivo enhancers and inhibitors of neuronal function, have been used to bidirectionally control behaviors in mice (e.g odor discrimination)."
13:20 < kanzure> what's the actual receptor set in mammal noses
13:20 < kanzure>  ' Bears, such as the Silvertip Grizzly found in parts of North America, have a sense of smell seven times stronger than that of the bloodhound, essential for locating food underground '
13:21 < kanzure> "Since inbreeding is detrimental, it tends to be avoided. In the house mouse, the major urinary protein (MUP) gene cluster provides a highly polymorphic scent signal of genetic identity that appears to underlie kin recognition and inbreeding avoidance. Thus, there are fewer matings between mice sharing MUP haplotypes than would be expected if there were random mating.[41]"
13:24 < kanzure> "number of olfactory receptor genes by species: cow 1186, opossum 1188, rat 1207, elephant 1948, "
13:24 < kanzure> .wik olfactory receptor
13:24 < yoleaux> "Olfactory receptors (ORs), also known as odorant receptors, are expressed in the cell membranes of olfactory receptor neurons and are responsible for the detection of odorants (i.e., compounds that have an odor) which give rise to the sense of smell." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_receptor
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13:26 < kanzure> "... In this view, a decrease in the fraction of functional OR genes would cause a reduction in the sense of smell; species with higher pseudogene count would also have a decreased olfactory ability. This assumption is flawed. Dogs, which are reputed to have good sense of smell,[40] do not have the largest number of functional OR genes.[38]"
13:28 < kanzure> yes but ... is it completely functionally dissociated or what? don't leave me hanging. wtf.
13:30 < kanzure> "The fluid dynamics of canine olfaction: unique nasal airflow patterns as an explanation of macrosmia" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2871809/
13:30 < kanzure> "Extensive gains and losses of olfactory receptor genes in mammalian evolution" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000708
13:35 < kanzure> alright so airflow is important in canine and that explains their olfactory senses, somewhat. (other component is neuronal density).  you can still replace human olfactory receptor genes with elephant olfactory genes or whatever you want, in the mean time.  not that it's a good idea or worth doing.. just saying it's possible.
13:37 < kanzure> if you were into perfumes, then you could propose a product like this:   snort some engineered neural stem cells into your nasal cavity, have them pre-programmed to die after 4 months, each neural stem cell should be programmed to have designer receptors exclusively activated by designer drugs (DREADDs) (or designer perfumes etc).  this seems something that jcorgan would be interested in.
13:38 < kanzure> "Intranasal delivery of cells to the brain" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Intranasal%20delivery%20of%20cells%20to%20the%20brain.pdf
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14:49 < fltrz> don't unMUP whats rightfully MUP...
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15:30 < kanzure> "From nose to brain: Un-sensed electrical currents applied in the nose alter activity in deep brain structures" https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/26/11/4180/2453354/From-Nose-to-Brain-Un-Sensed-Electrical-Currents
15:30 < kanzure> "Artificially stimulating olfactory neurons with electrical currents and measuring ensuing perception may uncover these rules. We therefore inserted an electrode into the nose of 50 human volunteers and applied various currents for about an hour in each case."
15:31 < kanzure> "This induced assorted non-olfactory sensations but never once the perception of odor."
15:32 < kanzure> "... artificial stimulation of the rodent olfactory system at various levels using either electrophysiology or more recently optogenetics"
15:33 < kanzure> "Finally, electrical stimulation of olfactory sensory neurons may be technically simple because these neurons are in fact quite accessible in the human nose. This accessibility has allowed for live biopsies of these neurons (Feron et al. 1998; Leopold et al. 2000; Rawson and Ozdener 2013), and for recording odorant-induced local field potentials directly from the epithelial surface of ...
15:34 < kanzure> ...subjects who concurrently reported olfactory perception (Hummel et al. 1996; Lapid et al. 2009, 2011; Lapid and Hummel 2013)."
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15:36 < kanzure> "A natural odorant likely activates specific subsets of olfactory sensory neurons as a reflection of the receptor subtypes they express (Firestein 2001). Moreover, natural odorants may excite some receptors while inhibiting others (Duchamp-Viret et al. 1999; Delay and Restrepo 2004; Su et al. 2011), and it is this fine interplay that characterizes a given odorant. In contrast, our stimulation ...
15:36 < kanzure> ...likely indiscriminately influenced large populations of these cells, populations never activated in concert by natural stimuli. Such activation patterns are likely not recognized as odor by the olfactory system."
15:36 < kanzure> "Consistent with this notion, when a single receptor subtype is significantly overexpressed in mice, those mice fail to detect the cognate odorant activating that receptor (Fleischmann et al. 2008)."
15:40 < kanzure> so why didn't they just switch to a microelectrode array for their olfactory stimulation study?
15:45 < kanzure> "A study by Menashe et al. has found that individuals with a single nucleotide polymorphism variant in the OR11H7P pseudogene have a lower receptor activation threshold for isovaleric acid.[3] These individuals are hyperosmic for this single odorant."
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15:58 < kanzure> Mrkva: greets
15:59 < Mrkva> hello everyone
16:03 < kanzure> it's too bad that they did't test with a microelectrode array up the nose...  if they believe that the stimulation has to be more specific, then they should try a microelectrode array.
16:03 < kanzure> *didn't
16:05 < kanzure> if you could lesion the brain to prevent the discrimination behavior that they encoutered,  then i wonder if this would be a viable high-resolution brain-computer interface (input only).  if you could only transfer at most a few bits per second then this is not useful at all. IOW, smellivison.
16:07 < kanzure> meh this is gonna blow
16:07 < kanzure> a nose.
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16:23 < kanzure> *encountered
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16:33 < fltrz> yeah, I don't know much about the nose, but I always thought smelling worked like gas chromatography, i.e. the sudden exposure to a substance near the nose, would reach different receptors at different times depending on the diffusion speed of the substance
16:34 < fltrz> so a simple constant/random stimulation of a couple of these sensors shouldn't produce a smell at all
16:35 < fltrz> i.e. from a hypothetical no smelly substance situation to a specific substance situation, the deeper receptors would fire later, and the time,depth profile of receptor activations may match a smell
16:36 < fltrz> as a BCI, this could potentially be interesting
16:38 < fltrz> (when you hold your breath, you hardly perceive new smells, so we only actually smell the change in smells, and our brain integrates it somewhat over time)
16:39 < fltrz> possibly the smell analysis part of the brain must be connected with the breathing part of the brain, in order to compensate signals with inhalation speed
16:39 < fltrz> perhaps this is the connection deeper into the brain?
16:41 < fltrz> I have these plastic cylindrical canisters holding water disolvable round tablets of vitamines&minerals, they each have a different fruity smell, I just opened 5 different flavours
16:42 < fltrz> and then went back and forth inhaling, it seems that smell is in fact updated quite fast
16:42 < fltrz> (and thats coming from a smoker)
16:43 < kanzure> inhalation was used in the above electrode study but that was non-specific stimulation
16:43 < fltrz> so there may be BCI potential, but I dont particularly look forward to stuffing electrodes up my nose
16:44 < fltrz> btw, today I finally got my FTDI chip with FPGA working, so now I can communicate between fpga and computer
16:44 < kanzure> seems likely to be lower resolution than skin/tactile so it's sort of a dead end
16:44 < kanzure> better to use it for delivering cells and drugs to the brainz
16:44 < fltrz> in a few days Ill try to finally read the flash memory extracted from the kinect
16:45 < fltrz> yeah agree, but the most sensitive parts of skin tend to be quite usefull, except perhaps the scalp, the hair sensors are very sensitive, and not necessarily much use in modern life
16:46 < fltrz> while say finger tips etc, the BCI would compete with our need for sense of touch in daily life
16:51 < fltrz> hm, I wonder if magnetic spray on short (say 1 cm) hair would feeld actuation with electromagnetic coils?
16:51 < fltrz> http://www.dickblick.com/products/krylon-magnetic-spray-paint/
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16:52 < fltrz> this way with continuous varying (i.e. frequency range of sinusoidals) magnetic fields we could send data to brain (not the pulsed potentially dangerous in amateur hour conditions type)
16:56 < fltrz> so this + earphones (remove neodymium magnet, carefully puncture diafragm while keeping atached coil intact, glue coil to rest of earphone body) would be cheap platform
16:56 < fltrz> the diafragm removal is so as not to produce sound
16:58 < fltrz> 2 (left and right) for price of 1, earphones can be _cheap_ , qualified for skull anyway, USB soundcards are dirt cheap too, so easy to expand...
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16:59 < fltrz> perhaps not remove the neodymium magnet, so it keeps the hairs pulled taut for pretensioning
17:00 < fltrz> so going to try this, either with the spray (unlikely tbh) or with small ferromagnetic clips of some kind
17:01 < fltrz> if its paint instead of spray I might try it still, since making droplets dangling on hair ends with upside down head seems feasible
17:06 < fltrz> 50x earphones, 27.50 euros
17:06 < fltrz> thats 100 analog actuators
17:07 < fltrz> and connectors, so no soldering
17:07 < fltrz> would need to build a jig for quick modification of the earphones
17:09 < fltrz> 100 for 47
17:15 < fltrz> 100 usb soundcards 320 GBP
17:16 < fltrz> so for ~400 euros a 200channels BCI input
17:16 < fltrz> and its cheap to test 1 channel before embarking on all out version
17:17 < fltrz> oh, still need usb hubs
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17:31 < fltrz> the 100 usb soundcards would also have 100 mic inputs..
17:34 < fltrz> im probably just crazy :)
17:35 < kanzure> meanwhile: nmz proposes functional hermaphrodites might be a sufficiently antagonistic concept
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17:44 < fltrz> the magnetic paints (or the one I bothered to check) turns out carcinogenic, perhaps just stainless steel ball bearing or smth, apply to couple of hairs with wax
17:53 < fltrz> regarding the "Moreover, this effort serendipitously uncovered a novel path for minimally invasive brain stimulation through the nose." perhaps this is why lots of kids like picking their nose?
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20:54 < kanzure> "Regarding microelectrode array - this was our purpose at the beginning of this study. however, as none of the subjects reported on olfactory sensation with a "macro electrode" we decided it not worth the time to build this array."
20:55 < kanzure> (from an email from one of the authors to me)
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23:49 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b37e6f51 Bryan Bishop: transcript: gmaxwell on Bitcoin Core v0.15 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2017-08-28-deep-dive-bitcoin-core-v0.15/
23:50 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=bf5f1790 Bryan Bishop: add tweeter link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2017-08-28-deep-dive-bitcoin-core-v0.15/
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23:53 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2017-08-28-deep-dive-bitcoin-core-v0.15/
--- Log closed Sat Sep 02 00:00:06 2017