--- Log opened Fri Oct 27 00:00:18 2017
--- Day changed Fri Oct 27 2017
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01:19 < jrayhawk> 'Observer' is a pretty good transhumanist horror game/walking simulator
01:21 < ebowden_> What happens in that game?
01:27 < jrayhawk> Grizzled mindhacking detective investigates a conspiracy in future Krakowloon Walled City, spends most of his time getting outsmarted and psychologically demolished.
01:28 < jrayhawk> https://www.wired.com/story/observer-review/
01:29 < ebowden_> Outsmarted by who?
01:29 < ebowden_> Is he not enhanced like everyone else?
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04:26 < kanzure> ebowden_: you need to go get some skills
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08:12 < kanzure> https://www.genomeweb.com/business-news/broad-institute-responds-uc-berkeley-appeal-crispr-cas9-patent-interference-decision
08:14 < kanzure> elsewhere: ".. ABE's capabilities may be attributed to its main components: an “evolved” transfer RNA adenosine deamininase (TadA), a Cas9 nickase, and a guide .."
08:25 < archels> just signed up for TransVision 2017  https://transvision-conference.org/schedule/
08:29 < kanzure> great you can go heckle them ("why are none of you biologists? what have you been doing for the past 40 years?")
08:33 < kanzure> this is an older crowd.
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08:38 < archels> yeah, hopefully it's not all armchair philosophy
08:39 < kanzure> KVc: be greeted
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11:57 < kanzure> yep
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15:46 < kanzure> dna data storage is probably ideal for drone surveillance multi-spectral recording of literally everything
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18:13 < kanzure> blort
18:17 <@nmz787> snag
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19:08 < gene-hacker> or you know just storing everything
19:08 < gene-hacker> ever hear of reversible computing?
19:09 < gene-hacker> as long as you don't throw data away data, you can have a computer that uses almost no power
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20:22 < kanzure> gp-write would like some numbers on dna synthesis costs (for some reason they want twist's "preferred pricing" numbers. meh.)
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20:27 < kanzure> 2014 https://synbiobeta.com/time-new-dna-synthesis-sequencing-cost-curves-rob-carlson/
20:28 < kanzure> but these are prices not costs....
20:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Large-scale%20de%20novo%20DNA%20synthesis:%20technologies%20and%20applications%20-%20Church%20-%202014.pdf
20:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Beyond%20editing%20to%20writing%20large%20genomes%20-%20Church%20-%202017.pdf
20:31 < kanzure> this is still $0.10/bp https://www.idtdna.com/pages/products/dna-rna/96-and-384-well-plates
20:31 < kanzure> up to 200 bp for >$0.10/bp https://www.idtdna.com/pages/products/dna-rna/ultramer-oligos
20:33 < kanzure> 92,918 different 170mer oligos for $6000 http://www.customarrayinc.com/oligos_main.htm
20:34 < kanzure> so that's $0.0004/bp?
20:36 < kanzure> .wik carlson curve
20:36 < yoleaux> "The Carlson curve is a term to describe the rate of DNA sequencing or cost per sequenced base as a function of time. It is the biotechnological equivalent of Moore's law. Carlson predicted that the doubling time of DNA sequencing technologies (measured by cost and performance) would be at least as fast as Moore's law." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlson_curve
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21:06 < gene-hacker> well salmon millet isn't free...
21:07 < kanzure> hmm wait a sec..
21:07 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20140415131349/http://www.customarrayinc.com:80/oligos_main.htm
21:07 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20171028040641/http://www.customarrayinc.com/oligos_main.htm
21:07 < kanzure> literally no price change since 2014
21:08 < ebowden> Does anyone do it cheaper?
21:09 < kanzure> why do you want to know?
21:10 < gene-hacker> you're not making illegal copies of patented genes are you?
21:10 < ebowden> N-no!
21:10 < ebowden> I'm not an evil gene pirate!
21:10 < mrdata> why not make illegal copies of patented genes?
21:10 < ebowden> Well, gene patent violator.
21:11 < mrdata> suppose someone knocks on your door and says your use of your genome is a patent violation
21:11 < mrdata> how would you respond
21:11 < kanzure> with lethal force
21:12 < mrdata> would you have to buy a license?
21:12 < ebowden> With surprise if I wasn't using it commercially.
21:12 < mrdata> because that could be called slavery
21:12 < kanzure> ebowden: patent law isn't only about commercial use.
21:12 < kanzure> ebowden: you are wrong
21:12 < mrdata> extortion
21:12 < kanzure> mrdata: why are you asking
21:12 < mrdata> or lots of other illegal things
21:12 < ebowden> Oh, even for research?
21:13 < ebowden> I'm used to the 3Dp side of things, where you can build various patented things so long as you don't sell them.
21:13 < kanzure> that's not true
21:13 < kanzure> that's not how patents work
21:13 < ebowden> It is if no one finds out. :P
21:13 < kanzure> what you are observing is that patents do not physically stop you from doing things; legally it's another store.
21:13 < kanzure> *story
21:13 < kanzure> ebowden: it's not about *selling* though.
21:14 < ebowden> You can't synthesise a patented gene sequence legally, no matter what the end use?
21:15 < mrdata> fair use is possible
21:15 < kanzure> fair use is about copyright not patent
21:15 < kanzure> who taught you people about law?
21:15 < mrdata> it's about making money
21:15 < ebowden> Aren't there genes that are copyrighted as well?
21:15 < kanzure> mrdata: why are you asking about genome doorknock thing?
21:16 < ebowden> (In the same way that someone can copyright a map.)
21:17 < mrdata> kanzure, gene-hacker's statement triggered me; sorry if it's wandering off topic
21:18 < kanzure> mrdata: ah.   well, your body is making "illegal copies" all the time. so don't worry.
21:18 < kanzure> mrdata: thankfully misunderstandings of biology are very widely distributed
21:18 < mrdata> or should we be aware of how poorly the IP framework fits with biology?
21:19 < kanzure> intellectual property poorly fits literally everything
21:19 < kanzure> biology is not unique in this aspect
21:19 < ebowden> I don't know what actually fits well with it.
21:21 < ebowden> I suspect that things that came after the development of IP law probably fit even worse than the things IP law was supposed to fit.
21:22 < ebowden> I'm not sure what they could ever do to it to ram it over reality.
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21:23 < gene-hacker> I'm sad that there aren't more 3d printing IP lawsuits
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21:23 < gene-hacker> what it means is 3d printers aren't good enough for it to be a problem
21:24 < gene-hacker> HP's new printer could change that
21:24 < gene-hacker> but they are locking it down
21:24 < kanzure> if you get more lawsuits, then they could rule infavorably against users
21:24 < kanzure> unfavorably
21:24 < gene-hacker> it's going to print tracking information inside all parts produced
21:24 < gene-hacker> true
21:25 < ebowden> I hope an OS version of it gets made.
21:25 < gene-hacker> that would be challenging
21:25 < kanzure> ebowden: reprap
21:26 < gene-hacker> what enables their printer is a big page wide inkjet
21:26 < ebowden> Oh, is there actually anything special about this HP 3D printer?
21:26 < mrdata> inkjet patents expired maybe?
21:26 < gene-hacker> it prints strong parts, fast, in color
21:26 < gene-hacker> far from it
21:27 < gene-hacker> printing tech was recently patented
21:27 < gene-hacker> so it's going to be a while
21:27 < ebowden> Printing in colour doesn't matter much at all to me, though printing different materials in different areas does.
21:27 < mrdata> inkjet sprays droplets; 3D printer doesnt?
21:27 < mrdata> oozes out lines
21:28 < gene-hacker> they found a way to massively decrease the cost of getting SLS quality parts while increasing speed
21:28 < ebowden> There are a number of 3D printing techniques.
21:28 < gene-hacker> they could make the machine for a bit more than one of their fancy 2d printers if they wanted too
21:29 < ebowden> SLS works in a very different way to inkjet.
21:30 < mrdata> did the original inkjet patents think of 3D printing as a use case?
21:30 < mrdata> extending it to a new realm may mean the patent doesnt cover the use
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21:30 < gene-hacker> indeed
21:31 < gene-hacker> but SLS is still sintering
21:31 < ebowden> Until they patent it.
21:31 < ebowden> Then another patent covers the use.
21:31 < gene-hacker> http://cdn1.expertreviews.co.uk/sites/expertreviews/files/9/86//hp_multijet_fusion_1.png?itok=eawmuzyu
21:31 < gene-hacker> here's the process
21:31 < gene-hacker> print black ink where you want part
21:31 < mrdata> but anyone could file that patent. it would be a blocking patent
21:32 < gene-hacker> then use a bright light to fuse the powder
21:33 < gene-hacker> HP patented it and patents crazy new inkjet stuff all the time
21:34 < gene-hacker> I've heard you can't even sell custom drivers for inkjets because of the patents they have
21:35 < mrdata> 17 years is all they get
21:35 < mrdata> though that seems like an eternity
21:35 < mrdata> inkjets were a thing longer ago
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21:35 < ebowden> I do wonder how much faster tech would move along without patents.
21:36 < mrdata> would it move at all?
21:36 < mrdata> risk to the inventor would be too high
21:45 < ebowden> You hear that kanzure? We'd be in the dark ages without the righteous patents to keep us moving forward.
21:50 < kanzure> die in a fire
21:50 < kanzure> mrdata: people are going to invent things even when it is net detrimental to them, and you can't stop that
21:50 < kanzure> no matter how many patents or whatever "incentives" you make up
21:50 < ebowden> I am being sarcastic.
21:51 < ebowden> Yup. People even invent things in North Korea.
21:51 < kanzure> north korea has a patent system
21:51 < ebowden> Which is hilarious.
21:51 < ebowden> But that's a statement on inventions coming from anywhere, even absolute shitholes.
21:52 < ebowden> Shenzen is the electronic engineering mecca of the world.
21:52 < ebowden> *Shenzhen
21:52 < ebowden> They aren't very strict on enforcing patents over there.
21:54 < mrdata> almost all of it copies other tech
21:55 < ebowden> Like almost all tech today.
21:55 < ebowden> A lot of tech development happens there, because its so much faster.
21:55 < ebowden> You can walk into a market and find pretty much any component.
21:55 < ebowden> *it's
21:58 < ebowden> If you want to develop and manufacture some tech, you will get it done very quickly there.
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22:46 < kanzure> "fair use in patent law" http://www.wipo.int/edocs/mdocs/mdocs/en/wipo_ipr_ge_11/wipo_ipr_ge_11_topic6-related1.pdf
22:46 < kanzure> (a presentation by the dark lords of intellectual property)
22:49 < kanzure> .title https://www.reddit.com/r/atoptics/comments/793zvk/glowing_ball_probably_created_by_a_missile_test/
22:49 < yoleaux> Glowing ball probably created by a missile test in Siberia last night : atoptics
22:49 < kanzure> music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRVrKKYXOGk
22:58 < kanzure> hmph
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 28 00:00:59 2017