--- Log opened Wed Nov 22 00:00:22 2017
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06:18 < kanzure> https://bitcointechtalk.com/segwit2x-bugs-explained-8e0c286124bc
06:18 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7eixcu/recovering_bch_sent_to_segwit_addresses/
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06:44 < kanzure> "why i injected myself with untested gene therapy" http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41990981
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06:52 < kanzure> http://www.ascendancebiomed.com/
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07:12 < CaptHindsight> bioethicists heh, who made this up and what kind of hat do they wear?
07:14 < kanzure> https://i1.wp.com/zoecreates.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/futurama_hermes_brainslug-e1508075208103.jpg
07:14 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, does the Chinese government build huge amounts of factory floorspace, then rent it out?
07:14 < CaptHindsight> about what I was picturing
07:15 < CaptHindsight> ebowden: yes
07:15 < ebowden> High rise factories?
07:15 < ebowden> (They have those in Singapore.)
07:15 < CaptHindsight> usually factories are 3-5 stories
07:16 < CaptHindsight> I have pics if you want to see some
07:16 < ebowden> I do.
07:16 < ebowden> Factories tend to house multiple little manufacturers?
07:16 < CaptHindsight> inside they are all very similar
07:17 < CaptHindsight> yes, shared docs and elevators
07:17 < CaptHindsight> well not really docs, drive in doors
07:17 < CaptHindsight> and shared fork lifts
07:17 < CaptHindsight> or a bunch of guys to load/unload boxes
07:18 < ebowden> Your job being "the guy who is there because we don't have a forklift" would be a little depressing.
07:19 < CaptHindsight> https://imagebin.ca/v/3iBNqf9gwLCk  typical inside when first built
07:20 < CaptHindsight> no interior build out yet
07:20 < CaptHindsight> https://imagebin.ca/v/3iBOFdkz7c6q  exterior
07:21 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, imagine if gene therapy were so cheap that when someone couldn't afford a forklift they just used myostatin attenuation on employees.
07:22 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, nice factories.
07:22 < CaptHindsight> https://imagebin.ca/v/3iBOrjNFzaOJ
07:23 < ebowden> Would you say that it is best to keep one's factory clean?
07:25 < CaptHindsight> https://imagebin.ca/v/3iBPW0Ugz55P  after build out
07:25 < ebowden> Nice.
07:26 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, are you familiar with Flow Chemistry and its potential?
07:27 < ebowden> I imagine someone who's manufactured resins would be, but its best to ask.
07:27 < gradstudentbot> My PI went fishing in 1987 for proteins associated with cancer. He hasn't returned yet.
07:29 < CaptHindsight> manufacturing resins is more like making cake batter
07:29 < ebowden> You do very little actual synthesis?
07:29 < CaptHindsight> you'll often find the same process equipment used
07:30 < ebowden> Ok.
07:30 < CaptHindsight> sometimes you have to go that far
07:30 < CaptHindsight> most often you are just formulating
07:32 < ebowden> Do you mostly make resins?
07:32 < CaptHindsight> unless it is really tricky you can pay someone a few $$ to make something in their reactor
07:32 < CaptHindsight> resins, inks, coatings, paints, inkjet fluids etc
07:32 < CaptHindsight> lots of radcure
07:34 < CaptHindsight> whatever people pay for
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07:35 < ebowden> How stimulating to the economy is China's building and renting out of floorspace?
07:36 < CaptHindsight> it all adds up
07:36 < CaptHindsight> slowing down the past few years
07:37 < ebowden> Why is that?
07:37 < ebowden> Just because growth isn't something that can happen forever whilst we are stuck on planet earth?
07:37 < CaptHindsight> we got ours when they had a program to fund start ups
07:37 < ebowden> Ah.
07:37 < CaptHindsight> they gave you $, office and factory space
07:38 < ebowden> That's gone now?
07:38 < ebowden> (The program.)
07:38 < CaptHindsight> a few thousand applied for 1K spots
07:38 < CaptHindsight> yeah, was a few years ago
07:38 < ebowden> So, your startup was:
07:39 < CaptHindsight> you can still find $ and space if you want to move there
07:39 < ebowden> Resins, Coatings and Paints.
07:39 < ebowden> "We make those things depending on what people buy, I guess."
07:39 < ebowden> (Company motto.)
07:40 < CaptHindsight> it was additive manufacturing equipment/printers
07:40 < ebowden> lol
07:40 < ebowden> Shitty printers with rods that aren't quite straight?
07:40 < CaptHindsight> there is more than one company
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07:40 < ebowden> Oh. I guess they might be resin printers.
07:40 < CaptHindsight> nah, there were enough of those already
07:41 < ebowden> What was special about your printers/
07:41 < ebowden> What was special about your printers?
07:41 < CaptHindsight> the good thing was that you were funded by the guberment
07:41 < CaptHindsight> the bad thing was that you were funded by the guberment
07:41 < CaptHindsight> so you had special rules
07:42 < CaptHindsight> and were above certain laws/rules
07:42 < CaptHindsight> buy also under guberment control
07:42 < ebowden> What did that control actually entail?
07:43 < CaptHindsight> so if you really want to just get something to market, say a treatment, therapy, cure, etc they will make it happen, patents schmattents
07:44 < ebowden> Ok.
07:44 < ebowden> And the catch?
07:44 < CaptHindsight> control might be two officers coming to you lab to pick up samples of whatever you might have
07:45 < CaptHindsight> so your tech is shared
07:45 < ebowden> "I need to sniff these markers for important quality control."
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07:45 < CaptHindsight> or somebody else they know might need them for something else across town
07:46 < ebowden> Can they could force you to produce whatever they ask you to produce, like in the US and Nazi Germany?
07:46 < ebowden> (Though that applied to all heavy industry.)
07:46 < CaptHindsight> as long as you aren't hurting anyone and you're generating revenue
07:47 < CaptHindsight> I never came across anyone forcing anyone to do anything
07:47 < CaptHindsight> more bribes than anything else
07:47 < ebowden> That's only used in wartime.
07:47 < ebowden> When you need lots of explosives, rifles, ammunition, tanks, boots, bullets and bandages.
07:48 < CaptHindsight> and hats
07:48 < CaptHindsight> I steered clear of all the military apps
07:49 < ebowden> You'd think that'd be straightforward.
07:49 < ebowden> Not always the case.
07:50 < ebowden> For example, if war broke out, and you made toilet paper, you might find yourself making a lot more.
07:50 < CaptHindsight> not a big concern
07:51 < ebowden> True.
07:51 < CaptHindsight> like space invasion
07:51 < CaptHindsight> comet strike etc
07:51 < ebowden> Not as far fetched as space invasion, but very far fetched in the current climate.
07:51 < ebowden> It has been a long time since the party has dared enforce its ideology.
07:52 < CaptHindsight> it's tightening up a bit now that the world economy has slowed
07:52 < ebowden> No point incentivising startups now.
07:52 < CaptHindsight> they are aslo moving people from the farms to the newly built cities
07:53 < ebowden> Those giant cities that went empty, and that no one lives in?
07:53 < CaptHindsight> yeah
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07:53 < CaptHindsight> plugging holes in the great firewall
07:54 < ebowden> That sounds like a disaster in the making.
07:54 < CaptHindsight> the guberment knows they are screwed if people get unhappy
07:54 < CaptHindsight> keep them content and busy
07:55 < CaptHindsight> the current generation has things far far better than the last
07:56 < CaptHindsight> the next maybe not so much
07:56 < ebowden> Oh dear, why is that?
07:56 < CaptHindsight> the boom is over
07:57 < ebowden> Would that mean that it might be a good idea to have appliances that last longer?
07:58 < CaptHindsight> now don't say anything crazy like that
07:58 < CaptHindsight> everything is pretty much 1-3 years
07:59 < ebowden> Both the West and the Chinese are good at engineering products to have their time to failure form a nice tight bell curve just outside the warranty period.
07:59 < CaptHindsight> tools, phones, cars maybe a bit longer
07:59 < ebowden> I'd rather my shit last.
08:00 < CaptHindsight> their guberment plans long term, well they did until recently
08:00 < ebowden> But now?
08:00 < CaptHindsight> business is still mostly short term
08:01 < CaptHindsight> I think that they still think they are planning for long term....
08:01 < CaptHindsight> but they haven't been in the position they are in now
08:02 < gradstudentbot> The protocol is wrong.
08:02 < CaptHindsight> world economy, size of their middle class, empty cities, migration from the farms to cities
08:03 < CaptHindsight> and keeping a billion people from seeing whats going on outside of their borders
08:03 < ebowden> Is that even practical?
08:04 < CaptHindsight> the psychology to me is interesting
08:04 < CaptHindsight> since most don't even want to know
08:04 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, I'm not saying cheap, disposable tools don't have a place. If I'm disposing of bodies with the crew after a successful hit, a cheap, 30 dollar reciprocating saw is perfect for cutting up the frozen corpses before disposal. It does the job just as well, and I HAVE to dispose of it anyway.
08:05 < CaptHindsight> it's like raising animals in a room with all the doors and windows covered and closed
08:05 < CaptHindsight> then after several years opening one door
08:06 < CaptHindsight> and the animals don't go out or even care to look
08:07 < ebowden> I know some that did, they don't want to go back.
08:07 < ebowden> However, I want the stuff I keep to last a good while.
08:07 < ebowden> (Back to the subject of product life.)
08:10 < CaptHindsight> it's not the Chinese way
08:10 < CaptHindsight> same for quality control
08:14 < CaptHindsight> same philosophy for >1000 years
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09:35 < kanzure> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-developer-about-take-mining-hardware-industry/
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10:26 < kanzure> rbtc claims that i am a sockpuppet created by gmaxwell https://imgur.com/9wEcp0a
10:30 < superkuh> Yeah, I saw that.
10:30 < superkuh> Shouldn't have used that -- one time.
10:30 < superkuh> /s
10:35 < kanzure> indeed...
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11:16 < JayDugger> Hm.
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12:40 < nmz787> anyone here use these folks, or read about them?   https://www.qhi.co.uk "Quality Health's web list includes a wide range of products used in hair loss treatment, HRT, diabetes, Parkinson's disease and memory impairment. If you are interested in importing other medications not on our web list, such as Aromasin, Cabergoline, Clomid, Domperidone, Estrace (generic), Estraderm, Memantine, Noopept,
12:40 < nmz787> Oestrogel, Ondansetron, Oxiracetam and Tamoxifen please contact us for up to date prices."
12:44 < nmz787> "Antiandrogens like spironolactone are male-specific teratogens which can feminize male fetuses due to their antiandrogen effects"
12:45 < nmz787> .wik Spironolactone
12:45 < yoleaux> "Spironolactone, marketed under the brand name Aldactone among others, is a medication that is primarily used to treat fluid build-up due to heart failure, liver scarring, or kidney disease. It is also used in the treatment of high blood pressure, low blood potassium that does not improve with supplementation, early-onset puberty, and acne  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone
12:51 < nmz787> damn, now I'm confused as to what a transgender woman is... are they coming from a woman or going towards that?
12:51 < nmz787> ok, wiki clarifies it's "going to woman"
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13:21 < nmz787> wah wuh
13:21 < nmz787> https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/CellularGeneTherapyProducts/ucm586343.htm
13:21 < nmz787> .title
13:21 < yoleaux> Information About Self-Administration of Gene Therapy
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15:30 < CaptHindsight> https://gizmodo.com/the-feds-are-officially-cracking-down-on-basement-bioha-1820682025
15:31 < CaptHindsight> "the FDA is instead cracking down on the selling of the supplies that could enable it"
15:32 < CaptHindsight> the article even mentions the Odin
15:36 < CaptHindsight> https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/CellularGeneTherapyProducts/ucm586343.htm
15:38 < CaptHindsight> there you go "FDA considers any use of CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing in humans to be gene therapy."
15:40 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/rob_carlson/status/933435636169687040
15:40 < yoleaux> .@kristenvbrown I am concerned that your article misrepresents the law and the FDA's authority. The FDA notice very clearly says *selling* DIY gene therapy kits is illegal, whereas your article claims *using* them at home is. Big difference. https://gizmodo.com/the-feds-are-officially-cracking-down-on-basement-bioha-1820682025 (@rob_carlson)
15:41 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/rob_carlson/status/933437280089341952
15:41 < yoleaux> @kristenvbrown Moreover, the "feds" are NOT "cracking down on basement biohackers", because 1) the standing US national strategy for countering biological threats explicitly *embraces* garage biology and 2) "the feds" recognize any such move would be counterproductive and *create* insecurity. (@rob_carlson, in reply to tw:933435636169687040)
15:44 < CaptHindsight> time will tell what is really going on
15:45 < CaptHindsight> "gene therapy products intended for self-administration and “do it yourself” kits to produce gene therapies for self-administration are being made available to the public. The sale of these products is against the law."
15:46 < CaptHindsight> ^^ from the FDA announcement
15:51 < streety> Can these issues be avoided with a suitable disclaimer or are they more profound? "This product not been evaluated by the United States Food  and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure  or prevent any disease."
15:52 < streety> The statement on http://www.the-odin.com/human-myostatin-knock-out-targeting-crispr-cas9-plasmid/ is "This product is not injectable or meant for direct human use. The DNA  needs to replicated and purified before use in human cells." which is far more encouraging
15:53 < kanzure> fda has its own stormtroopers & agents-- basically they are partly law enforcement.
15:54 < CaptHindsight> started noticing the mission creep in the 80's
15:55 < CaptHindsight> administrations would start adding themselves to bills to be able to start carrying fire arms as well as act as troopers
15:56 < kanzure> http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/fda-raid-e1369159107639.jpg
15:58 < kanzure> http://www.standupamericaus.org/sua/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/us-fda-ci-badge.jpg
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16:10 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, do you not like to do proper QC?
16:10 < kanzure> folks need to be able to use tech on themselves if they really want to
16:10 < kanzure> that's how transhumanism works
16:19 < maaku> really every government agency has its own police force
16:26 < CaptHindsight> ebowden: it's not a China thing
16:26 < CaptHindsight> the idea is to make it as low cost as possible (cut every corner) without the buyer complaining
16:29 < CaptHindsight> pretty much the opposite of "old world craftsmanship" that I grew up with
16:34 < ebowden> Because of this, a printer maker I know simply could not get rods for his printer from China.
16:34 < ebowden> They were ALL bent, he had to order the ground rods from the US.
16:35 < ebowden> There just weren't vendors with the QC needed.
16:35 < ebowden> It's a race to the bottom.
16:36 < CaptHindsight> they have the same machines and tools as in the west, they just don't care, they have a different set of ethics and morals
16:37 < ebowden> Which means that he couldn't use their products, because they fell far short of what was needed.
16:38 < CaptHindsight> what a western co will often do is have their own QC people work there in a warehouse to check parts as they are made and before they ship
16:38 < ebowden> Or automated QC.
16:38 < gradstudentbot> Dude, you contaminated my experiment.
16:38 < CaptHindsight> or perform final operations in the west
16:38 < CaptHindsight> cast and rough machine in China
16:39 < CaptHindsight> finish machine in Germany or USA
16:39 < ebowden> Finishing operations in Switzerland.
16:39 < CaptHindsight> yeah
16:39 < ebowden> The greediest and most precise people on earth.
16:40 < ebowden> Supplement makers have to be so careful testing stuff, especially stuff they buy from Chinese labs.
16:40 < ebowden> Chinese labs put out impure and fake product, stuff with toxic solvent contamination, etc.
16:41 < ebowden> It has gotten people hospitalised.
16:41 < CaptHindsight> cleaning out the reactor takes time and money
16:41 < gradstudentbot> Do you have references for that?
16:42 < ebowden> As does removing solvent from the final product.
16:42 < CaptHindsight> the penalties for causing harm to somebody like that can be pretty steep there
16:42 < ebowden> Yet the Chinese still do it.
16:42 < ebowden> A LOT.
16:42 < CaptHindsight> yes
16:43 < CaptHindsight> they won't a bullet in my head
16:43 < ebowden> I guess life is cheap over there.
16:43 < CaptHindsight> yeah, it's like a time machine in many ways
16:43 < CaptHindsight> human rights
16:44 < CaptHindsight> yet at the same time 300kph trains
16:44 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, what regulations are there on how much you can pollute?
16:45 < CaptHindsight> 300m high glass steel building next to a 500 year old pile of stones that resemble a house
16:45 < CaptHindsight> we had a tough time
16:45 < ebowden> The evil government wouldn't let you flood lakes with solvent waste?
16:45 < CaptHindsight> we had to show them how we would deal with toxic materials and waste
16:45 < ebowden> Oh, good.
16:46 < CaptHindsight> it still happens, corruption, gamble that you won't be caught etc
16:46 < CaptHindsight> we had to give them a list of actual toxic waste haulers
16:46 < CaptHindsight> you couldn't just say, hire a local toxic waste plant
16:47 < ebowden> Why is that?
16:47 < CaptHindsight> they wanted proof
16:47 < CaptHindsight> paperwork for everything
16:47 < ebowden> The toxic waste processing plant was not trustworthy?
16:47 < ebowden> *The local toxic
16:47 < CaptHindsight> they wanted names and addresses
16:48 < CaptHindsight>  vs just hire an approved plant
16:48 < ebowden> Was it difficult to find the names and addresses for the local toxic waste processing facility?
16:48 < CaptHindsight> you also need to be certified to ship any liquids
16:48 < CaptHindsight> really any chems
16:49 < CaptHindsight> the shipping cos' won't even pick up without official paperwork
16:49 < CaptHindsight> so on that hand they are tougher than in the USA
16:50 < CaptHindsight> early on I did not know this so we had a tough time getting chems moved around
16:51 < CaptHindsight> USA to Beijing is easy, then your liquid is stuck in Beijing
16:51 < CaptHindsight> you can't hire anyone to move it say to Nanjing from there
16:52 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, luckily I know a noot and supplement vendor who does absurd levels of testing and QC.
16:52 < ebowden> So much so that he does it for other noot vendors.
16:52 < CaptHindsight> yeah, you need to build up a relationship with a supplier
16:53 < CaptHindsight> and hope that they don't change
16:53 < CaptHindsight> face is very important there
16:53 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, the advantage of dealing with that noot vendor would be that, although he'd demand quality(oh noes!), if you ever truly fucked up, he'd catch it right away and no one would die.
16:53 < CaptHindsight> so they generally don't change for the worse
16:54 < ebowden> Which means you don't have much of any risk of being executed.
16:54 < ebowden> You can sell him all the chems you want.
16:55 < CaptHindsight> that can be important to some people  :)
16:55 < ebowden> Would that not be important to you?
16:56 < CaptHindsight> you hear about all these toxic things ending up in meds or foods yet I found them difficult to purchase there
16:56 < CaptHindsight> no solvents at Home Depot
16:56 < CaptHindsight> no IPA at most pharmacies
16:57 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, I know I'd want to deal with a buyer who has a moral compass.
16:57 < ebowden> Far less risk.
16:58 < ebowden> And he'd pay for quality.
16:58 < CaptHindsight> bbl
16:58 < CaptHindsight> not really my thing
16:59 < ebowden> Quality isn't really your thing?
16:59 < CaptHindsight> making chems
16:59 < ebowden> Oh, that.
16:59 < ebowden> CaptHindsight, automated continuous flow chemistry could make it a lot less of a hassle.
17:00 < gradstudentbot> Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it
17:03 < CaptHindsight> talked with someone about using inkjet to print meds
17:03 < CaptHindsight> factory in China but the co-owner lived in NJ
17:04 < kanzure> i'm not sure if the production method for drugs is a bottleneck
17:04 < CaptHindsight> he was spooked since I did everything involving inkjet, mechanical, electronics, fluid formulation etc
17:05 < CaptHindsight> guess i wasn't supposed to know about all that
17:05 < CaptHindsight> kanzure: they were making meds that would be difficult to counterfeit
17:06 < kanzure> ok. so printing stuff on the side of pills.
17:06 < CaptHindsight> inkjet allowed them to assemble the pills/tablets in unique ways
17:06 < CaptHindsight> side of and also 3d print structure
17:07 < CaptHindsight> they thought that it would be too difficult to copy
17:08 < kanzure> it's not the difficulty that matters, only the cost, so that it becomes cost-prohibitive to make imitations relative to the value of the drugz
17:08 < CaptHindsight> not really but when you're a supposed know it all....
17:09 < kanzure> hm?
17:09 < CaptHindsight> they guy making the pills
17:09 < kanzure> if you use an easy-to-replicate method then it's cheap for anyone to do that. not sure i follow your point.
17:10 < CaptHindsight> sure, but if it's only difficult because you are arrogant vs actually being difficult technologically
17:12 < kanzure> arrogance seems cheaper!
17:13 < kanzure> don't have to pay for expertise or any of that them knowledges
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20:46 < kanzure> (anti-transhumanism intensifies) https://intelligence.org/files/AIPosNegFactor.pdf
20:46 < kanzure> (actually it's an old document.)
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20:54 < rpifan> im against transhumanism
20:54 < rpifan> i favor replacement parts
20:54 < rpifan> but thye need to be organic
20:54 < rpifan> and human
20:54 < rpifan> not mechanical
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22:47 < nmz787> rpifan: sounds pretty transhuman to me... or maybe that's cishuman, idk, seems pretty similar anyway
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22:48 < rpifan> im against robot parts
22:48 < rpifan> thats all
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23:36 < darsie> organic parts fail too soon, notably the brain.
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 23 00:00:23 2017