--- Log opened Wed Jan 10 00:00:08 2018
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00:24 < archels> .gc optoprosthetics
00:24 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed.
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01:54 < fltrz> "The starting materials were SrCO_3 (2N), Al_2O_3 (3N) and PrF_3 (2N). Thesematerialswerewellmixedatastoichiometricratio, (Sr + Pr) : Al = 1 : 12, in an alumina mortar for 20 min." what does the 2N and 3N signify? at first I thought stoichiometric ratios, but the next sentence indicates a different stoichiometric ratio...
01:54 < fltrz> oh wow, the pdf removed the whitespace when copying
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02:25 < fltrz> if I interpret the 2N and 3N as stoichiometric proportions I get (Sr+Pr):Al= 4:6, so I know the xN notation signifies something else, but what?
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06:01 < kanzure> yeah pdf text copying technology hasn't seen a lot of development
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07:53 <@fenn> CaptHindsight: perhaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekhelet
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08:25 < kanzure> .wik bpc157
08:25 < yoleaux> "BPC-157 (also known as PL 14736) is a pentadecapeptide. It has the amino acid sequence Gly-Glu-Pro-Pro-Pro-Gly-Lys-Pro-Ala-Asp-Asp-Ala-Gly-Leu-Val." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPC-157
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08:49 < kanzure> plasma magnet propulsion http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/860Slough.pdf
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09:04 < spurserh> @kanzure cool concept. kind of an inside-out version of an experiment I did recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkhnLszwOs
09:14 < kanzure> .title
09:14 < yoleaux> CO2 thru solid state fan - YouTube
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09:19 <@fenn> that looks like a "lifter"
09:19 <@fenn> plasma magnet sail is completely different
09:19 <@fenn> it uses a magnetic field to expand a cloud of plasma to a large size so that it deflects solar wind, and the momentum is transferred back to the coil that created the magnetic field
09:22 <@fenn> more on the topic:
09:22 <@fenn> .title https://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=39048
09:22 < yoleaux> The Plasma Magnet Drive: A Simple, Cheap Drive for the Solar System and Beyond
09:22 <@fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVOtrAnIxM
09:23 < yoleaux> 10. Missions Enabled by Plasma Magnet Sails - YouTube
09:24 <@fenn> major tom suggested using a gravitational slingshot around say, jupiter, to return to the inner solar system
09:30 < spurserh> @fenn ahh, so it just traps solar wind particles to make the sail without having to carry "propellant"
09:31 <@fenn> yes
09:32 <@fenn> i think this will be very useful for reboosting momentum exchange tethers
09:34 < spurserh> @fenn can I bother you for a quick explanation of why this is more efficient than directly pushing the solar wind particles along like in the lifter experiment I showed?
09:35 <@fenn> you don't need a grid
09:35 <@fenn> the plasma cloud is 30 km in diameter, so it will deflect a lot of solar wind
09:36 <@fenn> a 30 km grid will weigh a lot
09:36 < spurserh> so it's the awesomeness of superconductors as magnetic field sources, vs whatever we have to make grids
09:36 < spurserh> materials issue
09:36 <@fenn> no it will still be better even with regular conductors
09:36 <@fenn> the plasma cloud is the grid, basically
09:37 <@fenn> there's a similar concept called "electrostatic sail" which is more like what you're describing
09:37 < spurserh> the awesomeness of regular conductors, then. or is it some fundamental scaling issue
09:37 <@fenn> long conductive tethers that get charged up to a high voltage and spread out in a sphere like dandelion seeds
09:38 < spurserh> like the weight of this concept goes linearly with radius vs the sail goes with the square, or something like that
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09:38 < spurserh> *vs the grid
09:38 <@fenn> yes something like that
09:38 <@fenn> i'm not an expert in plasma physics
09:39 <@fenn> honestly i have no idea how the thing works
09:40 <@fenn> the point is, the sail itself is massless
09:42 <@fenn> the actual coils are like 10 cm
09:43 <@fenn> probably scales sublinearly with radius
09:43 < spurserh> they're talking about 10s of kA tho, at pretty high frequencies
09:44 < spurserh> unless I'm misunderstanding
09:44 <@fenn> yeah the power supply is nontrivial
09:44 <@fenn> the bulk of the mass is in solar panels and driving electronics
09:44 < spurserh> well the superconductors I'm familiar with will dissipate a lot of heat too in those conditions
09:44 <@fenn> or nuclear if you're in the outer solar system
09:45 < spurserh> (ReBCO)
09:45 <@fenn> i tihnk it's best not to get too hung up on the idea of using superconductors, as it's not important to the operation of the system
09:45 < spurserh> copper conductors will dissipate even more
09:47 < spurserh> and weigh much more too
09:47 <@fenn> certainly
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09:49 < spurserh> let's say the coil has 1 milliohm of resistance, (10000 amps)^2 * 1 milliohm = 100kwatt
09:50 <@fenn> "since the total current (or equivalently final plasma sail size) is a function of antenna size, it makes far greater sense to make the antenna larger than to drive a smaller antenna at higher power, particularly given the low mass required for the antenna (10s of kg at most for a 10m antenna). For near term experiments in smaller chambers, however, this is the only choice."
09:52 < spurserh> ah I see
09:52 < spurserh> the vacuum chamber is why they are doing that
09:52 <@fenn> so maybe really large coils are better overall
09:52 < spurserh> yeah, that makes much more sense
09:53 < spurserh> wish I had time to read these things in full so I wouldn't sound like an idiot :)
09:53 <@fenn> i'm just skimming the paper myself
09:54 < spurserh> higher current densities are key to zillions of cool things
09:54 < spurserh> my heart was broken when I finally appreciated how much the AC losses are in ReBCO superconductors
09:54 <@fenn> where do those losses come from?
09:54 < spurserh> I had dreams of fast wireless charging and super light induction motors
09:55 < spurserh> well, don't take my word for it, but my understanding is that in order for the current to change at all, the conductor must not be in a superconducting state
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09:55 < spurserh> there's a paradox if you think about a truly perfect conductor, of AC and DC
09:56 < spurserh> it would always perfectly oppose any changes in current to itself, and so it would never conduct
09:56 <@fenn> hmm well how about just spinning the whole assembly of superconducting coils instead of rotating their phase
09:56 < spurserh> that is what is done in industry
09:56 < spurserh> the company I worked with had done experiments in heating aluminium that way
09:57 < spurserh> one could imagine making an induction motor by having rotating "stator" coils
09:57 < spurserh> of course, that's kind of defeating the purpose in the case of a motor
09:58 <@fenn> heh
09:58 < spurserh> but I guess if all you're trying to do is amplify the current density..
09:58 < spurserh> you could have a motor in the spaceship that spins this coil that is tightly coupled to all these particles
09:58 < spurserh> and the motor uses regular copper inside, but with all the pieces very close together
09:58 <@fenn> i keep thinking of those chemistry hotplate stirbars
09:58 < spurserh> so such high current densities are not needed
09:59 < spurserh> yeah, so you could also perhaps do wireless charging that way
09:59 < spurserh> the stir bar is the copper coil in the phone
09:59 <@fenn> personally i don't care at all about wireless charging
09:59 < spurserh> you have a regular motor in the charging plate that spins a superconductor that produces a 5T field
09:59 < spurserh> haha, okay. well, it's a common example of the same problem
10:00 <@fenn> unless it's for flying drones or something
10:00 <@fenn> like is it really that hard to put your phone on the cradle
10:00 < spurserh> it doesn't really matter what it's for, it's all the same
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10:00 <@fenn> drones are hundreds of meters away from the charger/transmitter though
10:00 < spurserh> I mean, if you can create a really tight *AC* coupling, the whole drone doesn't even need motors
10:01 < spurserh> it can just have different tuned circuits for XYZ
10:01 < spurserh> so you can power XYZ coils
10:01 < spurserh> each drone can have different frequencies
10:01 <@fenn> oh just levitate it magnetically?
10:01 < spurserh> yeah, but be able to do it selectively
10:01 < spurserh> not just all the drones with regular magnets inside, so they smash into each other and stick
10:01 < spurserh> AC can be tuned
10:02 < spurserh> the only reason this is hard right now is because coupling thru significant power is hard
10:02 < spurserh> so instead we have batteries in the drone that amplify a weak AC (RF) signal
10:03 < spurserh> the issue is current density
10:03 < spurserh> of course, the motor that physically spins a superconducting coil doesn't really solve the drone one. for one, quick maneuvers are going to be hard, and for two, you'd need something equivalent in the drone as well I think
10:04 <@fenn> you have to direct most of the power toward the drone, either with a dish or phased array antennas
10:04 <@fenn> otherwise it's a hugely inefficient and EMF polluting system
10:05 < spurserh> well this is magnetic, but I suppose Halbach arrays are a thing
10:05 < spurserh> this is all near-field
10:05 < spurserh> at least how I had been imagining it
10:05 <@fenn> a rotating magnet generates a magnetic field with a phase
10:06 <@fenn> mumble mumble inductor phase delay
10:10 <@fenn> well i'm not really sure how to build a magnetic phase modulator but it seems like it should be possible
10:10 <@fenn> and then you have an array of those to shape the magnetic field so that most of it goes where you want it
10:13 < spurserh> well physical rotations have phases too
10:13 <@fenn> it only works because the field is rotating at a particular frequency
10:14 < spurserh> I've not thought very hard about it, but I'm picturing concentric coils rotating independently
10:18 < spurserh> for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IVI5_q-lFg
10:19 < kanzure> .title
10:19 < yoleaux> Lenz's law and eddy currents: Spinning magnet next to aluminium can - YouTube
10:20 < spurserh> I wonder if a slight offset in position even matters
10:20 < spurserh> since the "rotor" is outside of the coils
10:20 < spurserh> if they can just be side-by-side, on the scale of a meter apart, then it's trivial isn't it?
10:21 < spurserh> can that really matter for a 10+km sail?
10:22 < spurserh> 10s of kilowatts of power savings are significant for a spacecraft, I imagine
10:24 < spurserh> I've played a lot with these sorts of problems, it's a little bit of an obsession https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS_Sn4Hz5zY
10:25 < spurserh> .title
10:25 < yoleaux> YBCO motor - YouTube
10:28 <@fenn> if they coils are rotating side by side they will induce currents into each other and that's a large loss
10:28 <@fenn> the*
10:29 < spurserh> hmm.. aren't they the same frequency? just out of phase?
10:29 < spurserh> are they on non-orthogonal axes?
10:30 <@fenn> i imagined they were rotating on the same axis
10:30 < spurserh> then there should be no induced currents, right?
10:30 < spurserh> same frequency, same axis
10:30 < spurserh> there's no relative motion
10:30 < spurserh> and if that's the case, same axis, then there's no need to be side by side anyway
10:31 < spurserh> maybe I'm having a brain fart, trying to think about this and work FPGA stuff at the same time
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10:38 < spurserh> it's funny how they use the word "antenna" in the document, given that it seems to actually be a near-field device
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13:41 < kanzure> yep
13:42 < nmz787> mm hmm
13:42 < nmz787> work is borrrrrinnnnng
13:43 < nmz787> too much waiting for compilation to happen
13:43 < spurserh> that's when you read papers about magnetic solar sails!
13:44 < nmz787> nah, too much DNA on the brain
13:57 < spurserh> papers about ... "or whatever"
14:03 < nmz787> folks asking about metalenses on the confocal microscopy mailing list... maybe someone will want me to try making one for them
14:07 < kanzure> .wik halcyon molecular
14:07 < yoleaux> "Halcyon Molecular was a whole genome sequencing startup based in Redwood City, California, founded in 2008, that went out of business in 2012." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halcyon_Molecular
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14:19 < CaptHindsight> https://www.genisyss.com/  long term personal DNA storage
14:22 < CaptHindsight> long term DNA storage  https://patents.justia.com/patent/9840731
14:22 < CaptHindsight> https://patents.justia.com/patent/20170145477
14:24 < CaptHindsight> 101 ways to dry state DNA
14:24 < nmz787> why not just dry it in air?
14:25 < nmz787> worked for homo erectus...
14:26 < CaptHindsight> drying and dry storage mechanisms
14:26 < nmz787> yep
14:26 < nmz787> super KISS
14:28 < CaptHindsight> first of all you need to get clean dry air
14:29 < CaptHindsight> then after drying you need something stable to store it in
14:29 < nmz787> why?
14:29 < nmz787> dry film seems fine to me
14:29 < CaptHindsight> so it can be stored or shipped via the postal service
14:29 < nmz787> people ship paper all the time, works fine for dry DNA
14:30 < nmz787> I mean, I guess that patent is just the extension of "find the best paper or other matrix"
14:30 < CaptHindsight> looks like that wasn't good enough for the military
14:30 < CaptHindsight> yeah, a good enough to meet a buyers standards and then patented
14:31 < CaptHindsight> paper and storage/shipping container
14:45 < fltrz> nmz787: do you make metalenses?
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15:09 < nmz787> fltrz: I haven't tried yet, but have code to make CAD drawings based on some equations I found in a paper years ago
15:09 < nmz787> fltrz: also have the lab equipment to actually try etching metal from i.e. a glass microscope slide
15:10 < spurserh> seems like exciting times for lenses. maybe we will finally have good xray / gamma ray lenses https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171207102512.htm
15:10 < nmz787> fltrz: https://gist.github.com/nmz787/83a826ca4d40011262e7382b46c22570   and   https://imgur.com/PKFXtCV
15:11 < nmz787> fltrz: I also have some unpushed code that performs the same but using BRLCAD
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17:44 < kanzure> nrrrrrp
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19:00 < nmz787> so I learned that IVF services in my area (big U.S. city) won't select for intelligence or non-risk traits :(
19:00 < nmz787> so if I want to do that, I guess a China trip for some medical tourism might have to be part of the plan
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19:23 < kanzure> yep
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21:24 < kanzure> hm.
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 11 00:00:09 2018