--- Log opened Thu Feb 15 00:00:53 2018
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07:11 < kanzure> "End-to-end differentiable learning of protein structure" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/14/265231
07:11 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/fischer_cr/status/963966254401732608
07:11 < yoleaux> De novo protein structure prediction using only sequence information -- good to 3.7 angstrom accuracy! https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/14/265231 (@fischer_cr)
07:11 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/fischer_cr/status/964147405091303424
07:11 < yoleaux> Apologies for misreading the abstract. It's "3 to 7" angstrom accuracy, i.e., a range, not "3 point 7". (@fischer_cr, in reply to tw:963966254401732608)
07:11 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/cells_nnm/status/963773804915970048
07:11 < yoleaux> Astellas to acquire Universal Cells for $102.5M upfront http://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/astellas-pledges-102-5m-for-universal-donor-cell-company big move of Japanese BioPharma to off-the-shelf cell therapies! (@cells_nnm)
07:12 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/963784052703711232
07:12 < yoleaux> An very interesting company engineering stem cells to be universally compatible got acquired before I could write about them. https://twitter.com/cells_nnm/status/963773804915970048 (@antonioregalado)
07:12 < kanzure> "Multi-neuron intracellular recording in vivo via interacting autopatching robots" https://elifesciences.org/articles/24656 https://twitter.com/bksuhasa/status/963834032789258242
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07:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/963973937397977088
07:51 < yoleaux> Here are some good arguments as to why MPEG-LA's CRISPR patent pool should be abolished (as well as the patent system itself, but that's separate): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16380467 (@kanzure)
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10:29 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16381232
10:29 < kanzure> "I would much rather see a large patent fee with annual inflation indexing for the patent holder. If it costs you 1 million USD each year to hold a patent, then you only acquire one for major, truly revolutionary ideas that will easily recoup that money. It's a sum that can easily be fitted in the budget of any significant research and development program, yet prohibitive for most submarine, ...
10:29 < kanzure> ...defensive, or warchest IP operations. A large anual fee forces you to "work" the patent, either directly or by licensing it. If you are not sure if your "idea" is valuable, then you don't deserve a patent."
10:31 < kanzure> "Everyone who wants to file a patent should first post a challenge. Other parties then have, say, 1 year to come up with a solution. If none is found, the patent is granted. This would, of course, not solve all patent problems, but it could be a first step to solve the most obvious ones."
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16:22 < kanzure> .to yashgaroth we should do opiod receptor density downregulation
16:22 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.
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17:24 < CaptHindsight> James Watson at 89 http://adnas.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/jims-1024x580.jpg
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18:01 < kanzure> "in the 1950s, synthesizing steroids was expensive, so doctors used the pig-derived acthar (which was actually developed by armour & co, the chicago meat packing company). then cheap generic synthetic steroids gained use and acthar use declined, as they basically had the same effects."
18:02 < kanzure> "except that acthar worked better than corticosteroids to treat a rare form of epilepsy in infants called infantile spasms, even though the drug was not FDA approved for this disease. however, there were too few patients for the drug to be profitable in that indication, so the manufacturer of acthar decided to take it off the market. physicians and patients revolted, as this was the only drug ...
18:02 < kanzure> ...that worked for a serious disease, so the manufacturer kept selling it though they lost millions a year on it"
18:02 < kanzure> "enter questcor pharmaceuticals, which bought the rights to the drug for $100K. they cobbled together some existing publications and got FDA approval for infantile spasms. they increased the price of the drug from $30 / vial to $30K / vial, and then started marketing it in other indications like multiple sclerosis. there was no real evidence it worked in these indications, but because it was ...
18:02 < kanzure> ...approved in the 1950s before modern FDA standards, it retained many approved indications"
18:02 < kanzure> "questcor was eventually acquired for $6B, and to this day there is no competition for acthar because there is no FDA pathway for making a generic version of a pig-derived drug"
18:02 < kanzure> from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16388907
18:05 < kanzure> only $100k for the drug rights?
18:06 < kanzure> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-15/bitcoin-mine-causes-harmful-interference-for-t-mobile-users
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21:00 < kanzure> hmph
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21:48 < fenn> "kept selling it though they lost millions a year on it ... increased the price of the drug from $30 to $30k" sounds about right
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21:49 < fenn> is there some separate drug rights besides patents? how is it not possible to make a generic? you just do the same thing
22:02 < CaptHindsight> looks like you can't unless you were grandfathered in
22:02 < CaptHindsight> it's not logic or science...
22:02 < fenn> but.. why not
22:02 < fenn> what is the law that says this?
22:02 < CaptHindsight> it's tradition and law
22:03 < mrdata> patents grant rights to the process
22:03 < fenn> so if i started distilling pig brains or whatever, what sort of letter would the FDA send me?
22:03 < mrdata> if you invent a new process for making a drug, you can do that
22:03 < fenn> mrdata it's long out of patent
22:04 < mrdata> in the above example, the $30 to $30k was for a drug whose patent had expired
22:04 < mrdata> but no one else made it
22:04 < mrdata> so you can just go ahead and start production, the4n
22:06 < mrdata> but the market is tiny
22:06 < CaptHindsight> distilling pig brains are not a problems, except for maybe zoning if you do enough of it
22:07 < CaptHindsight> it's when it called a drug or medical device they have a lot of hoops for you to jump through first
22:08 < mrdata> so many hoops
22:09 < fenn> so apparently FDA runs its own little patent-like racket called "exclusivity"
22:09 < CaptHindsight> in that case it seems to be about it pig derived
22:10 < CaptHindsight> it being pig derived
22:10 < mrdata> why
22:10 < fenn> "Exclusivity was designed to promote a balance between new drug innovation and greater public access to drugs that result from generic drug competition."
22:10 < CaptHindsight> https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm
22:10 < CaptHindsight> CFR title 21
22:10 < CaptHindsight> have fun
22:11 < fenn> .title https://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/ucm079031.htm
22:11 < yoleaux> Frequently Asked Questions on Patents and Exclusivity
22:11 < CaptHindsight> I've been dealing with it all week to design a PCR system that will be used for drugs
22:11 < mrdata> did someone break martin shkreli's legs yet?
22:12 < mrdata> nobody deserves it more than he does
22:12 < CaptHindsight> is he in prison yet?
22:13 < CaptHindsight> wasn't sure if he was out still pending appeal or similar
22:14 < mrdata> idk
22:14 < CaptHindsight> Shkreli was sent to the Metropolitan Detention Center, Brooklyn[3] to serve out jail time until his sentencing hearing on January 16, 2018,
22:14 < mrdata> and then?
22:14 < CaptHindsight> now it's delayed another week
22:15 < CaptHindsight> his lawyer is going to jail as well
22:16 < mrdata> great
22:16 < CaptHindsight> rescheduled for February 21, 2018
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22:19 < CaptHindsight> fenn: maybe if you grow synthetic pig brains it could be a loophole
22:21 < CaptHindsight> it might be wise to just patent a bunch of things based on using synthesized DNA and editing that were not possible until recently, just to block others from blocking you
22:22 < CaptHindsight> just like putting "over the internet" in front of everything and then patenting
22:25  * mrdata plans to draw and quarter patent trolls
22:25 < mrdata> be very careful
22:25 < CaptHindsight> they seem to get around previous art by just ignoring it
22:27 < mrdata> ignoring prior art opens the door to challenges
22:29 < fenn> it's more stifling to have a challengeable patent than no patent at all
22:29 < mrdata> prior art challenges can be pretty robust. they can invalidate the whole patent
22:29 < fenn> yes but someone has to do it
22:29 < mrdata> as in, "no you cannot stop me from milking my cow. have a nice day"
22:29 < fenn> also what counts as prior art may not be what you think
22:30 < mrdata> fenn, presumably the patent holder must seek an injunction
22:30 < mrdata> and the defendant can submit evidence at the hearing
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22:36 < CaptHindsight> let me know where I can see any troll parts
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22:58 < mrdata> the coyotes got em
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23:09 < TMA> it is also useful to have several patents that are basically equivalent (except for the plurality of wording differences comprising substituting words with synonyms)
23:10 < TMA> bacause each needs to be invalidated separatedly (if used properly), driving up the cost for challengers
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23:18 < TMA> there is a different problem with patents, that seems to be unnoticed by the patent oponents: the basic tennet is that 'a patent is a monopoly granted in exchange for publishing a description that can be used by others'
23:19 < TMA> but that ceased to be the case, because the description is unintellegible (excepting maybe to patent lawyers)
23:24 < TMA> I have tried to decipher the patented mathematical formula from a software patent and failed.   fortham ic secge eow, thaet [=therefore I say unto you that] the problem is more severe because the infringing party cannot determine the infringement beforehand due to the invention not being disclosed
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 16 00:00:54 2018