--- Log opened Tue Aug 07 00:00:33 2018 00:05 -!- sektor [~sektor@95.87.234.241] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:09 -!- archels [charl@unaffiliated/archels] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20 < adlai> can we bring back "luddite" as a term for people who are anti-technology? eg, "human life must proceed as it did before all these machines" 01:22 < adlai> this has partial overlap with views on abortion, gene editing, etc, but in no case is it complete overlap; thus giving a clearer picture of what someone's opinions are, beyond "oh we probably [dis]agree" 01:22 * adlai goes back to sobering up, ty for the reminder kanzure ! 01:41 < fenn> let's all get the straw man arguments out of our systems 01:42 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:45 -!- pepesza [~pepesza@185.83.218.228] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in] 01:45 < TMA> maaku: there are culturally determined views on what constitutes a murder -- (I believe that killing a slave was just a property damage. Anyway killing an enemy soldier is not a murder even today. And that does entail deliberate killing not just accidental homicide.) ;; culture is just the aggregate of population emotion, all semblances of rational order in a culture is just a byproduct of the culture's fitness -- too haphazard a memeplex would produce cognit 01:47 < fenn> you cut off at "cognit" 01:47 < TMA> maaku: ... cognitive dissonance in the meme-vehicles. that would in turn change the memeplex 01:51 < adlai> please explain the difference between a young adult temporarily soldiering about, and an old child temporarily wearing the shoes of a forward artillery observer. 01:51 < TMA> maaku: I do not take anyone's position (on this particular matter) seriously, not even mine, because I know it is arbitrary. If I were kidnapped as an infant and moved to another country I would have different world-view. If my family were more religious or even if I lived in a theocracy (to which I have to count the U. S. of A.) my views would be different. 01:51 * adlai is not joking, people get shot over this difference; or worse yet, court-martialled! (and yeah, the 2nd clause has a joke) 01:52 < adlai> s/wearing the shoes/holding the cellphone/ for added literacy 01:55 < fenn> adlai: about three or four years i'd guess 01:56 < TMA> adlai: blimey, dunno 01:56 < fenn> so, killing taxi drivers is murder, soldiering is murder, abortion is murder, meat is murder, eating plants is murder, baking bread is murder 01:56 < TMA> fenn: breathing is murder 01:57 < fenn> without a coherent framework of ethics one can't say any of these statements is true or false 01:58 < TMA> fenn: I say that any coherent ethical framework is necessarily arbitrary 01:58 < fenn> but as soon as you try to justify your moral preferences based on capacity for {suffering, cognition, homeostasis} the post-soviet memetic fallout addled "justice" warriors jump on your case 01:58 < TMA> fenn: some are subjectively "better", but all are arbitrary 01:59 < fenn> i don't think ethics are arbitrary 01:59 < fenn> we just have really bad epistemology when it comes to ethical science 01:59 < fenn> nobody is doing any experimentation in this realm, not least because you're not allowed to do "unethical" experiments in the first place 02:00 < TMA> fenn: nobody is _reporting_ on the experimentation performed. (and the experimental method is shitty) 02:00 < fenn> well it's certainly not a controlled experiment 02:01 < fenn> you can look at the differences between countries with different laws and norms, but it all goes to shit as soon as people start moving around between those countries 02:03 < fenn> if the top performing 1% of your country emigrates, that's going to have a big effect on economy, sound policy making, cultural wealth, and so on down the line 02:03 < TMA> fenn: what is the source of ethics? The base is "how I want to be treated by others?" 02:04 < TMA> fenn: and that is subjective and arbitrary 02:04 < fenn> heinlein argued it was about survival, with individual survival as the most basic level of ethics, and then progressively larger and more abstract group survival 02:05 < adlai> and R Giskard argued that you must recognize yourself as a parasite upon a larger individual, for ethics to have a reference point; aka "zeroth law" 02:05 < TMA> fenn: exactly. then you take the individual answer and modify it so that the result is "nice" (by some measure) to the ingroups 02:05 < fenn> groups that treat their members "well" ought to perform better and have better chances of survival against extreme challenges 02:06 < adlai> fwiw, killing juvenile forward artillery observers is not murder, it's a war crime (according to certain courts); employing juveniles is also a war crime (or child abuse, i lose track of these definitions eventually); but i don't think either is the same as "murder" in anybody's book. 02:07 < TMA> fenn: how big is the group and how diverse are the ingroups is quite arbitrary too 02:07 < fenn> adlai: so the equlibrium point is that everyone uses child forward artillery observers? 02:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:08 < adlai> not at all! but this is what happens on one side of the equilibrium situation in conflicts that have symmetry-broken so far from the good old hoplite / trench model that ethics turns into a supercritical fluid of blood, mud, and disinformation. 02:09 * adlai discloses that he has been studying the devolution of war over the 20th century, and it does seem as though war is dead. 02:10 < adlai> whatever you want to call population control in the 21st century, it's no longer "war". 02:10 < fenn> um, "progress"? 02:10 * adlai puts words in kanzure's mouth: "stop talking about politics, regardless of sobriety" 02:11 < TMA> it is arbitrary in the same sense as language: there is no particular reason for each precise formulation of each ethical injunction but the general form is guided by the sounds humans are able to produce in the language case and by the survival instinct in the ethics case 02:11 < adlai> TMA: why should ethics be predicated upon the specifics of the communication medium? 02:12 < TMA> adlai: no. that's not what I am saying 02:12 < adlai> then please clarify, for my benefit, since the only sounds i hear right now are "clicklikclikcliclkclik" and some pink floyd in the background. 02:13 < fenn> for efficiency and clarity of communication you must use the least number of bits to represent common situations 02:13 < fenn> or the shortest string of phonemes 02:13 < fenn> "thou shalt not kill" is pretty compact 02:14 < TMA> adlai: I say (1) language is arbitrary -- there is no "inner" reason for "foo" being called "foo" but it is definitely not caled "xdfxg" because that is impossible to pronounce -- a constraint to the arbitrariness 02:14 < adlai> fenn: "progress" ... do you mean progress of the population control imperative? we're getting better at decreasing the proportion of humans who die long drawn out deaths? 02:14 < fenn> adlai: i mean economic prosperity results in population control because it no longer makes economic sense to have large families 02:15 < TMA> adlai: (2) ethics is arbitrary -- there is no "inner" reason for certain ethical injunctions being what they are -- but there are constraints based on the "I want to survive, so I want to be treated in a manner permitting it" 02:15 < fenn> even bangladesh has leveled out their population growth 02:15 < adlai> it's an indirect effect 02:16 < TMA> adlai: we are getting worse on the long drawn out deaths -- the whole life is one long drawn out death, therefore increasing lifespan is getting worse on that measure 02:17 < adlai> as far as i can tell, the larger entity ("humanity", etc) still depends on cheap labor, and the process of transitioning from a dependence on cheap human labor, to a dependence on robotic labor (raising capex, with the hope of lowering opex), is an ongoing process, if not barely begun. 02:18 < adlai> maybe i'm just a pessimist. 02:18 < fenn> foxconn just replaced their entire consumer electronics assembly factory with robots 02:18 < TMA> fenn: it is not _prosperity_ that keeps the birth rate down 02:19 < adlai> conditioning during an early age retards the evolution of ethics 02:20 < fenn> i think automation replacing labor will be an S curve, and we're still near the bottom of the S 02:20 < fenn> but it will be faster than anyone is prepared for 02:21 < TMA> adlai: it is not labor (neither energy for that matter) -- it is the negentropy it brings 02:22 < adlai> TMA: ehhh sure, but there's some inflection point (or at least, a point of extremal jerk) where you say, "relative to this entity's urge to keep living during the earlier part of the graph, the later part of the graph is no longer worth living" 02:22 < adlai> (this was re: "life is death") 02:25 < TMA> adlai: ok, the emotional point of death-start 02:26 < TMA> or death-commencement; the logical point is somewhere at or before conception 02:29 < TMA> it mostly depend on your (somewhat arbitrary) view as to when a new life begins (which is related but not identical to the question when a new human begins (a person might begin at a different time from the human, too)) 02:29 * adlai thanks fenn and TMA for filling his mind with entropy, and now uses this entropy to cook breakfast; stay lively, folks! 02:29 < fenn> good time of day, sir 02:49 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: Malvolio] 02:50 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:56 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:57 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:42 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:56 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:20 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:48 -!- maaku_ [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:50 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50 -!- red-001 [red@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ylfvemuxepivwieu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:57 < nsh> .title https://www.ozy.com/fast-forward/treating-brain-disorders-with-sound/76583?utm_source=quuu 05:57 < yoleaux> Treating Brain Disorders With Sound | Fast Forward | OZY 05:57 < nsh> (focused ultrasound to disrupt/kill 'abnormal' neurons) 05:59 < nsh> "Others are using lower-intensity focused ultrasound to jolt neural circuits rather than destroy abnormal neurons. A 25-year-old coma patient at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles regained consciousness and language comprehension just three days after researchers stimulated neurons in the thalamus (a key gateway for consciousness and complex thought processes) with a device that emits focused ultrasound at a low intensity." 06:01 < superkuh> Neat. 06:03 -!- red-001 [red@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-jjfqgsvzirdrzpgn] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:44 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.143.22] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:48 -!- archels [charl@unaffiliated/archels] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:14 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:c308:f700:b0fa:71d1:a476:bcb2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:26 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jeenvwknonliebsg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:31 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:32 -!- pepesza [~pepesza@185.83.218.228] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:41 < archels> https://i.imgur.com/D0GexFp.jpg 09:06 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:08 -!- razzy [~user@unaffiliated/razzy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:55 -!- Combinatorialist [~super@ns1.blackcatz.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:57 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@66.208.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57 -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-108-56-210-9.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:53 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@2603:3003:3601:9900:42a3:ccff:fe65:94dd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:07 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: Malvolio] 14:18 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:39 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:46 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@2603:3003:3601:9900:42a3:ccff:fe65:94dd] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:01 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@pool-108-31-165-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:50 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:26 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:38 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@pool-108-31-165-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:10 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:11 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:36 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jeenvwknonliebsg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:36 -!- l_wl [~l_wl@pool-173-66-166-232.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:12 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:13 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:43 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:50 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:50 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:00 -!- l_wl [~l_wl@pool-173-66-166-232.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:28 -!- aeiousomething [aeiousomet@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:40 < AppleSentry> [+] Scanning : Results => [clean site] | 20:40 < AppleSentry> [+] Scanning : Results => [clean site] | - https://i.imgur.com/D0GexFp.jpg 20:46 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:49 -!- sandeepkr_ [~sandeepkr@188.166.127.196] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:03 < ebowden_> Oh, that town in Russia where all the doctors deny the health effects of asbestos. 22:12 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@2606:6000:c308:f700:b0fa:71d1:a476:bcb2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:58 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03 < l_wl> Aren't all Russian cities classified as towns by western standards anyway 23:04 < mrdata> what's that, fish food? 23:04 < mrdata> donald's laundry? 23:05 < mrdata> EPA is looking to evaluate new uses for asbestos 23:10 < fenn> off topic 23:16 < fenn> AppleSentry: what's this "scanning" stuff all about? 23:55 -!- jqtrde [~jqtrde@pool-108-31-165-46.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Aug 08 00:00:33 2018