--- Log opened Thu Sep 20 00:00:14 2018
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00:25 < maaku> nmz787: did you post a paper link? i meant the workshop link. i'm wondering about what research precipated the need for a workshop
00:25 < maaku> but anyway thanks for that link
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00:28 < maaku> huh, interesting. it's not ion deposition like i thought.
00:30 < maaku> I just skimmed but it looks more like they're inducing crystallizaiton with the electron beam,
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00:30 < maaku> creating atomicly precise structure by controlling the rate of crystallization
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00:33 < maaku> I doubt this can be used to make any significantly complex features.. but it could be useful in creating precise flat work pieces or channel networks
00:39 < nmz787> maaku: well like 25 years ago an IBM guy used a tappping stylus probe to move Xenon atoms around
00:46 < nmz787> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41378-018-0022-5
00:46 < nmz787> .title
00:46 < yoleaux> Fabrication and testing of polymer-based capacitive micromachined ultrasound transducers for medical imaging | Microsystems & Nanoengineering
00:46 < nmz787> https://m.phys.org/news/2018-09-breakthrough-door-ultrasound-machine.html
00:46 < nmz787> "Conventional ultrasound scanners use piezoelectric crystals to create images of the inside of the body and send them to a computer to create sonograms. Researchers replaced the piezoelectric crystals with tiny vibrating drums made of polymer resin, called polyCMUTs (polymer capacitive micro-machined ultrasound transducers), which are cheaper to manufacture."
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00:57 < maaku> .title https://www.math3ma.com/blog/notes-on-act
00:57 < yoleaux> Notes on Applied Category Theory
00:58 < maaku> .tw https://twitter.com/johncarlosbaez/status/1042160107063193601
00:58 < yoleaux> Check out Tai-Danae Bradley's new short book "What is Applied Category Theory?" It's free, it's friendly, it's fun. It explains the big ideas, then applies them to chemistry and linguistics. You can follow her here on Twitter: she's @math3ma. https://www.math3ma.com/blog/notes-on-act (@johncarlosbaez)
00:59 < maaku> nmz787: yes, and Zyvex played with taking that further for additative Si manufacturing
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01:00 < maaku> I've never seen a post mortem, but they've apparantly shuttered that line of research
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04:07 < fltrz> can plants be grafted on inert non-biological artificial stems? the water and other nutrients would be provided through the artificial stem
04:08 < fltrz> how does with stem I meant stock
04:14 < fltrz> if it can provide the roles of xylem (transport water & nutrients from ground) and phloem (to transport photosynthates throughout the plant), and if the photosynthates can be produced efficiently through solar power, the same acre could produce more food?
04:14 < TMA> fltrz: considering the stock inert it is not much different (except for shape) than putting a cutting into a hydroponic thingy
04:15 < fltrz> can fruit bearing branch be grafted into hydroponic thingy?
04:16 < TMA> fltrz: that makes the cuttings sprout roots. If I recall correctly, the roots serve as a sensing organ, therefore they do more than just transferring nutrients upwards
04:18 < TMA> fltrz: yes. it is done in commercial propagation. however you get full plant that begins to fruit again only after reaching some minimum size
04:18 < fltrz> in commercial use, I thought they grafted onto natural stock?
04:19 < TMA> fltrz: or no -- it is not grafting. it is just inserting the cuttings into inert substrate flooded with nutrient rich water (eg. expanded perlite)
04:19 < TMA> fltrz: that's second (so far still cheaper option)
04:19 < fltrz> but they grow their own roots then I assume
04:20 < TMA> fltrz: yes, they grow own roots
04:20 < fltrz> I was wondering if it were theoretically possible to have just the part that produces a flower and can grow a fruit (on a branch) but suppressing leave and branch growth
04:21 < fltrz> by providing it with photosynthates so it doesn't need to do photosynthesis
04:22 < TMA> fltrz: maybe it is possible. the chemical signalling is complex though and the easiest way to produce the signalling chemicals is to let the tree grow naturally
04:23 < fltrz> it's just that humans have been able to efficiently generate ammonia and fertilizer, if we could do the same for plant signaling and photosynthates the same acre should be able to produce more food
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04:27 < TMA> the problem with that is that the signalling chemicals are not even known in entirety (that the quantity required is not high does not help -- in order to analyze you need to collect, separate and analyze, which requires quite a lot of the substance)
04:27 < fltrz> given how willingly they graft onto each other, perhaps a first step would be to have a double graft: natural stock => artificial stock => natural scion
04:27 < fltrz> for the biocompatibility of the artificial stock
04:28 < TMA> (where "quite a lot might" be on the order of milligrams compared to natural concentrations)
04:28 < fltrz> once that works we can engineer the artificial stock in the middle to have extra inlets/outlets
04:30 < fltrz> does the phloem transport systematically rootwards? or is it by diffusion, i.e. it can diffuse photosynthates towards the parent branch and then back down another child branch?
04:30 < fltrz> I would guess by diffusion otherwise I don't see how the growing fruit can get its photosynthates without being a leaf itself
04:32 < fltrz> perhaps if the plant is in darkness yet is provided with photosynthates, then every part of the branch thinks it is not the right part to start growing a leaf yet has chemicals to grow fruit?
04:34 < fltrz> lol "Grafting has been important in flowering research. Leaves or shoots from plants induced to flower can be grafted onto uninduced plants and transmit a floral stimulus that induces them to flower.[12]"
04:35 < fltrz> mindfucking plants
04:36 < TMA> fltrz: fruit is a derivative of a flower, which is itself a derivative of a leaf, if I recall correctly
04:36 < fltrz> TMA, right, but while it's a growing fruit it is no longer a flower, the flower was not a thickened leaf full of photosynthates
04:37 < TMA> fltrz: and what constitutes the 'floral stimulus' is not known (the chemical composition of the stimulus)
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04:37 < TMA> fltrz: the leafward/rootward directionality is maintained for fruits as if they were leaves
04:38 < fltrz> who cares, if we only need to graft a few parts from a real flowering tree to force the tree in darkness to flower
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04:41 < fltrz> if it turns out diffusion is not sufficient and the phloem flows faster than it diffuses photosynthates, then it would require grafting the artificial phloem input onto the branches near the flower as if the artificial phloem inputs were leaves
04:44 < fltrz> TMA do you know if the previous years phloem on thee inside acts like the new xylem next year with a new phloem on the outside?
04:45 < fltrz> or does a new layer of xylem and phloem form?
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04:47 < fltrz> never mind: vascular cambium: "It is a cylinder of unspecialized meristem cells that divide to form secondary vascular tissues. It is the source of both secondary xylem growth inwards towards the pith,[2] and secondary phloem growth outwards to the bark. Unlike the xylem and phloem, it does not transport water, minerals or food through the plant."
04:55 < fltrz> "During the plant's growth period, usually during the spring, storage organs such as the roots are sugar sources, and the plant's many growing areas are sugar sinks. The movement in phloem is multidirectional, whereas, in xylem cells, it is unidirectional (upward)."
05:01 < fltrz> TMA how about an intact tree but injecting extra sugar into the phloem?
05:03 < fltrz> for constant illumination but different temperature, why do plants grow faster in the warmer climate? is it because the photosynthates diffuse more easily in the warmer sap?
05:05 < fltrz> "Developing seed-bearing organs (such as fruit) are always sinks. Because of this multi-directional flow, coupled with the fact that sap cannot move with ease between adjacent sieve-tubes, it is not unusual for sap in adjacent sieve-tubes to be flowing in opposite directions." so some of the tubes in the phloem move sap up others sap down
05:07 < fltrz> I wonder at what point they mix? it seems like quite a detour for leaves to produce sugar, transport it to the root, then from the root back up to the fruit
05:08 < TMA> fltrz: the chemical reactions are faster in elevated temperatures (irrespective of sap viscosity)
05:08 < fltrz> that makes sense
05:10 < TMA> fltrz: the sugar injection is an interesting experiment to perform
05:11 < fltrz> I know next to nothing about plants, how hard would it be to try this at home?
05:12 < TMA> if you know next to nothing, probably very hard -- it is already hard for the plants to survive my handling
05:13 < TMA> and quite often they do not make it
05:13 < fltrz> how should the sugar injection be performed? sugar solution, or first slowly tap (with shot & needle?) the sap and add water then slowly reinject?
05:13 < fltrz> how protect the sap from other organisms?
05:14 < TMA> I suggest starting with some non-woody plant, as they are easier to replace
05:14 < fltrz> preferably some all year plant right?
05:15 < TMA> preferably something very resilient (easy for beginners) but those do not tend to flower
05:17 < fltrz> would sugar dissolved in the normal root water be absorbed and then mix with sap?
05:18 < TMA> plants _can_ absorb sugar from the medium
05:18 < TMA> (that makes possible to use agaric mixed with sugar as a substrate)
05:19 < fltrz> I didn't know plants could use agaric and sugar, I assumed that was only yeast, mushrooms etc
05:20 < fltrz> so to prevent other organisms from using the food, some hydroponic plant in sugar water with UV disinfection lamp, aluminum foil to protect the above root parts of the plant from UV?
05:21 < fltrz> I guess it's too far from my usual interests, that I won't be able to learn all the basics before I bum out
05:22 < fltrz> Phloem sap is also thought to play a role in sending informational signals throughout vascular plants. "Loading and unloading patterns are largely determined by the conductivity and number of plasmodesmata and the position-dependent function of solute-specific, plasma membrane transport proteins. Recent evidence indicates that mobile proteins and RNA are part of the plant's long-distance communication signaling system. Evidence
05:22 < fltrz> also exists for the directed transport and sorting of macromolecules as they pass through plasmodesmata."[7]
05:23 < fltrz> in what sense do they mean conductivity? conductivity through the membrane transport proteins? or conductivity of the phloem tube?
05:23 < fltrz> it highlights to electrical conductivity
05:25 < fltrz> lol "Because phloem tubes are located outside the xylem in most plants, a tree or other plant can be killed by stripping away the bark in a ring on the trunk or stem. With the phloem destroyed, nutrients cannot reach the roots, and the tree/plant will die. Trees located in areas with animals such as beavers are vulnerable since beavers chew off the bark at a fairly precise height. This process is known as girdling, and can be used
05:25 < fltrz> for agricultural purposes. For example, enormous fruits and vegetables seen at fairs and carnivals are produced via girdling."
05:25  * TMA has no idea. apart from some articles of vegetative tree propagation (summary: it is highly species specific in viability and method used) my last plant-bio study was 20 years ago
05:26 < fltrz> "A farmer would place a girdle at the base of a large branch, and remove all but one fruit/vegetable from that branch. Thus, all the sugars manufactured by leaves on that branch have no sinks to go to but the one fruit/vegetable, which thus expands to many times normal size. "
05:26 < fltrz> so it would seem that injecting would work to some extent
05:27 < TMA> the agaric/sugar was used for a plant I received as a curiosity from a plant cloning lab here
05:28 < TMA> the plant is still somewhat alive, even though it should be dead for a year now
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09:21 < nsh> how difficult is it to extract thorium from granite on a hobbyist/supervillain basis?
09:21 < nsh> (asking for a friend)
09:21 < superkuh> Can't find any old latern mantles?
09:21 < superkuh> lantern, even.
09:21 < nsh> oh, didn't know bout that
09:22 < nsh> but it's for fissile reactions
09:22 < superkuh> Have you read the radioactive boyscout's story?
09:22 < nsh> don't think so
09:22 < nsh> oh yeah he got in trouble for building a breeder reactor
09:22 < nsh> yeah that's the plan
09:22 < nsh> except small and for powering electronics ideally
09:23 < nsh> dunno if thorium radiobatteries are a thing
09:23 < nsh> nuclear battery i guess is the term
09:23 < nsh> no, atomic
09:24 < superkuh> Usually those are beta decay isotopes.
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09:24 < superkuh> I guess alphavoltaic could work.
09:24 < nsh> ah so
09:24 < nsh> --
09:24 < nsh> In 2004, Thorium plasma batteries made their debut as compact portable devices that could provide reliable power for 3-7 years, non-stop, without a recharge. Three inventors came up with 3 different but similar designs and all three worked flawlessly – providing a green alternate energy source with no adverse safety or environmental concerns.
09:24 < nsh> -- https://peakoil.com/alternative-energy/thorium-plasma-batteries-the-disruptive-oil-giant-killer-technology
09:24 < nsh> size of a shoebox and can power a house
09:24 < nsh> so definitely viable for drones
09:24 < nsh> which is the other bit of the supervillainy application side
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09:25 < nsh> the claims here sound a bit optimistic though
09:25 < superkuh> https://energyfromthorium.com/2014/04/13/mythology-thorium-car-thorium-plasma-batteries/
09:25 < nsh> (unless you buy into the suppressed tech meme; do we?)
09:26 < nsh> (well, classified tech is just an objective fact. the contention is the extent and edge over open academia)
09:26 < superkuh> Anyway, http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Physics/Molten%20Salt%20Thorium%20Reactors/Geology/
09:26 < nsh> ty
09:27 < nsh> d'oh, overblown as suspected
09:30 < nsh> heh, aluminium air batteries look fun for drones / EVs too... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery
09:31 < nsh> oh but you need new anode, can't recharge with reversible chemistry
09:31 < nsh> that kinda kills it
09:32 < nsh> but if a car can do 2000km on a battery and they're more energy dense than lithiums maybe it works out pretty sweet for drones
09:33 < nsh> what's the wattage on a midrange DJI style video drone i wonder
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09:35 < nsh> (the lanterns seem to use yttrium now anyway)
09:36 < nsh> " As an adult, Hahn served in the US Navy and the US Marine Corps. He was subsequently treated for mental illness, and his death at age thirty-nine was related to alcohol use."
09:36 < nsh> holy unexpected tragic ending batman :(
09:37 < nsh> or entirely predictable depending on $cynicism
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09:41 < nsh> "For every volt that an ion of ±1 charge is accelerated across, it gains 11,604 kelvins in temperature" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor
09:41  * nsh blinks
09:41 < nsh> oh no that makes sense
09:42 < nsh> (thought there'd be some dependence on mass but eVs and T are just energy dimension)
09:43 < superkuh> Fusors are pretty looking but I'd put my bets on pulsed devices like LPP's dense plasma focus. Don't fight the magnetic instability: use it.
09:43 < nsh> right on
09:44 < nsh> actually my quibble should have been that temperature for a single ion is not really meaningful, and also temperature is dimensionless even if it comes from kinetic energy
09:45 < nsh> maybe the conduction losses would be mitigated using materials with anomalous electron transport
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10:02 < nsh> .wik Augustus Edward Hough Love
10:02 < yoleaux> "Augustus Edward Hough Love FRS (17 April 1863, Weston-super-Mare – 5 June 1940, Oxford), often known as A. E. H. Love, was a mathematician famous for his work on the mathematical theory of elasticity." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Edward_Hough_Love
10:03 < nsh> i wonder if the Loves of Weston-super-Mare are related to the Loves of Glasgow
10:03 < nsh> has a good scottish moustache anyway
10:03 < nsh> oh right he's the same guy we get (seismic) Love waves from
10:04 < nsh> .wik Second Wrangler
10:04 < yoleaux> "At the University of Cambridge in England, a "Wrangler" is a student who gains first-class honours in the third year of the University's undergraduate degree in mathematics. The highest-scoring student is the Senior Wrangler, the second highest is the Second Wrangler, and so on." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Wrangler
10:04 < nsh> so he graduated penultatop of st. john's college cambridge
10:04 < nsh> that's naebad
10:04 < nsh> considering i failed to even get in
10:17 < nmz787> https://hackaday.com/2018/09/20/the-use-and-abuse-of-ct-scanners/
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13:43 < fenn> .title http://lzip.nongnu.org/xz_inadequate.html
13:43 < yoleaux> Xz format inadequate for long-term archiving
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21:19 < kanzure> https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/
21:22 < kanzure> "Thus, in Bitcoin Core 0.15.X, 0.16.0, 0.16.1, and 0.16.2, any attempts to double-spend a transaction output within a single transaction inside of a block where the output being spent was created in the same block, the same assertion failure will occur (as exists in the test case which was included in the 0.16.3 patch). However, if the output being double-spent was created in a previous ...
21:22 < kanzure> ...block, an entry will still remain in the CCoin map with the DIRTY flag set and having been marked as spent, resulting in no such assertion. This could allow a miner to inflate the supply of Bitcoin as they would be then able to claim the value being spent twice."
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21:51 < adlai> lol! so much for last week's breakfast chitchat around the proverbial morning coffee... her, reading my tshirt: "what's BREAKING BITCOIN?" me: "nuffin'"
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 21 00:00:15 2018