--- Log opened Fri Mar 15 00:00:16 2019
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01:01 < kush> hi
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01:10 < adlai> fenn: the simplest consensus algorithm is arm/thumb wrestling, as it acknowledges the tyrrany of a majority; include an audience, and you redefine the majority; subsequently, the winner may begin to explain the nakamoto approach to measuring energy.
01:11  * adlai asks kanzure, FourFire, or who[m?]ever operates yoleaux : why did it quote those two lines?
01:19 < Jenda`> adlai: because you said "2018-10-01 12:39:58 < adlai> .to FourFire as a general heuristic, you want your" which is for passing messages to offline users ("2018-10-01 12:39:58 < yoleaux> adlai: I'll pass your message to FourFire.") (times are in GMT+1)
01:19 < Jenda`> hm, GMT+2
01:20 < adlai> thank you Jenda` ... I must have not realized how long that memo would take to deliver!
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06:15 < nsh> two of whatever adlai is having
06:15 < nsh> plx
06:15 < nsh> the simplest consensus algorithm is when you get two children who want to split some cake and tell one to cut and the other to choose which half
06:16 < nsh> everything else follows more or less from there
06:17 < nsh> the most interesting yet-undeveloped consensus algorithm is when you have five childen, one of whom has been naughty and all of whom will be punished if the naughty one doesn't own up or the innocence of the other four is not somehow established, but the naughty kid has no interest in taking all the punishment and no altruistic incentive to spare their siblings the group punishment
06:17 < nsh> but each of the four innocents knows full well they are innocent
06:17 < nsh> the question is how can they collectively produce a proof of their innocence in the presence of a dishonest guilty party
06:17 < nsh> when this is figured out then we'll have more magic
06:18 < nsh> worth a few afternoons of thought at least
06:22 < adlai> nsh: how sharp is the cake knife, how brittle is the pie plate, and do any of the kids know how to catch a frisbee?
06:23 < nsh> good questions all
06:24 < adlai> more importantly, in the case that the consensus algorithm ever gets summoned for jury duty: please state your name, accusation, and ...
06:25 < adlai> most importantly, where are my copies of [list of books stolen so long ago that i've stopped searching for them]
06:26 < adlai> in no particular order: collections of columns from Mathematical Games, illustrated guides to knots (of both the slow- and quick-release varieties), and the autobiography of Leto Atreides.
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06:41 < nsh> they're all on libgen i would imagine
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06:58 < adlai> nope; at least, I am yet unaware of a method for reducing ridulian crystal into this set of spacetime dimensions.
06:58 < adlai> there may, however, be correlations in the spatiotemperal noise.
07:02 < nsh> it's called samadhi :)
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09:07 < nsh> --
09:07 < nsh>      In this paper we argue that, in addition to electrical and chemical signals propagating in the neurons of the brain, signal propagation takes place in the form of biophoton production. This statement is supported by recent experimental confirmation of photon guiding properties of a single neuron. We have investigated the interaction of mitochondrial biophotons with microtubules from a quantum mechanical point of view. Our theoretical analysis
09:07 < nsh> indicates that the interaction of biophotons and microtubules causes transitions/fluctuations of microtubules between coherent and incoherent states. A significant relationship between the fluctuation function of microtubules and alpha-EEG diagrams is elaborated on in this paper. We argue that the role of biophotons in the brain merits special attention.
09:07 < nsh> -- https://arxiv.org/abs/1012.3371
09:08 < nsh> cc ffltwhatevernothere
09:11 < nsh> i received a significant hint last night while in yoga and exogenically dissociated that the internal lights of the 'nimitta' are coherent but diffracted by the topological action of the spinning/enfolding manifold of the disturbed mind
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09:12 < nsh> and that the object of the shamatha/samadhi meditative practice is to learn to uncontort this manifold so that the coherent [biophotonic] light is undiffracted and illuminates leading to insight and eventually enlightenment as [perhaps limited] omniscience
09:12 < nsh> paraomniscience whatever
09:12 < nsh> seems worthy of further investigation anyway
09:14 < kanzure> ugh
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09:29 < ebowden_> Remember that "virgin transhumanist vs chad ecofascist" meme I found? Well, one of the terrorists at Christchurch is an ecofascist.
09:30 < nsh> or used the term as part of their murderous trolling
09:30 < nsh> trust me, their slaughter was not at all motivated by ecological concerns
09:31 < nsh> and if you even thought that for a second you need to slap yourself heartily upside the head :)
09:31 < nsh> (spoken with love)
09:31 < nsh> militant ecowarriors blow up pipelines. they don't kill dozens of worshipers in cold blood at their place of holy observance
09:32 < nsh> that's just right-wing ethnonationalist / white supremacist extremism
09:32 < ebowden_> Oh yes, I'm aware that his manifesto was a giant meme compilation.
09:32 < nsh> kk
09:32 < nsh> just checking / being thorough :)
09:33 < nsh> also i understand the tendency to relate to thing  in terms of ones own lifestory/interests
09:33 < ebowden_> But, the people who blow up pipelines don't tend to be ecofascists either, btw.
09:33 < nsh> but that is also less than helpful
09:33 < nsh> well, i'm not sure ecofascist means anything really
09:33 < nsh> it's just a term made up by people who don't ascribe to any ecological motivations whatsoever
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09:33 < nsh> ecology and fascism are not especially compatible systems of thought
09:33 < ebowden_> They tend to give a lot of clout to the writings of The Unabomber.
09:34 < nsh> well, he was a smart guy, who then became incredibly destructively unbalanced
09:34 < nsh> so he was able to write a manifesto parts of which are very well-informed and dangerously alluring
09:34 < nsh> the worst comes from mixing some wisdom and insight with some insanity
09:34 < ebowden_> There is nothing whatever incompatible between ecology and fascism.
09:34 < nsh> oh? :)
09:35 < nsh> which part of the natural kingdom has a king?
09:35 < nsh> or authoritarianism at all?
09:35 < nsh> there are apex predators but they are still in a complex relationship with their environment
09:35 < nsh> that they do not dictate
09:35 < nsh> it takes a very human detachment from reality to be authoritarian
09:35 < ebowden_> So, you're talking about some very, very specific environmentalism?
09:36 < nsh> i'm talking about nature
09:36 < ebowden_> Ok.
09:36 < nsh> environmentalism is a thing humans do when trying to not be dicks around nature
09:36 < nsh> which in fairness we're a part of but removed by culture
09:36 < ebowden_> Then I maintain, nothing whatsoever that makes them incompatible.
09:36 < nsh> you can be authoritarian in the pursuit of what you believe to be ecological ideals
09:36 < nsh> but that doesn't make your pursuits ecological
09:37 < nsh> but i might be arguing from a fringe interpretation of ecology
09:37 < ebowden_> You are.
09:37 < nsh> fair enough
09:38 < ebowden_> Every Nazi I've talked to believes in global warming, and believes it needs to be mitigated, and that there are many strict measures we need to take to curb the deleterious effects humans are having on the environment.
09:38 < ebowden_> So, it's hardly surprising that there'd be ecofascists.
09:38 < nsh> i'm not sure what logic this is :)
09:39 < nsh> a fascist can believe the earth is flat but that doesn't make 2-dimensionality fascist
09:39 < nsh> they can believe elvis is the greatest rock star but that doesn't make elvis fascist
09:39 < nsh> that's not how these things work
09:39 < ebowden_> Do you believe that I am trying to say that being for protecting the environment makes you a fascist?
09:40 < nsh> and the overwhelming tendency that i have observes is a correlation between climate denialism and reactionism in general
09:40 < nsh> no, you're saying one can be an ecological fascist
09:40 < nsh> and i'm dubious
09:40 < nsh> one can be a fascist who deludes themselves that they are ecological
09:40 < nsh> but that's not the same thing
09:40 < ebowden_> lol
09:40 < nsh> almost everyone deludes themselves that they are wise, for instance
09:40 < nsh> myself included and especially
09:40 < nsh> but wisdom is the opposite of delusion
09:40 < nsh> so a delusion about wisdom is not wisdom
09:41 < nsh> by definition
09:41 < ebowden_> You have yet to provide any actual reason why these people aren't the true scotsmen.
09:41 < nsh> and ecology in the abstract is being in harmony
09:41 < nsh> which fascism is antithetical to as a political ideology
09:41 < nsh> i'm not that interested in philosophy
09:41 < nsh> it's just verbal mastubartion
09:41 < nsh> i don't mind if people do it in private :)
09:42 < ebowden_> Not gonna lie, talking to you is a little like reading timecube.
09:43 < nsh> i'll take that a compliment :)
09:43 < nsh> meanwhile
09:43 < nsh> <saxo> Beto O’Rourke’s hacker alias was ‘Psychedelic Warlord’. Your hacker alias is now the kind of the last drug you took plus the difficulty level of your most recent Civilization game. I’m ‘Antihistamine Chieftain’, what’s yours? (@dpkendal)
09:44 < ebowden_> Anyway, nonsensical ravings aside, yes, there are ecofascists. You might have to live with the scary thought that people with viewpoints you abhor agree with you on other things.
09:45 < ebowden_> Nazis love renewables? Oh noes, this calls for mental gymnastics and denial!
09:47  * nsh shrugs
09:47 < nsh> this seems to be more about your trip than mine
09:47 < nsh> which is fine
09:47 < ebowden_> ?
09:48 < nsh> but fwiw i don't at all deny that people who are authoritarian can have views informed (more or less misguidedly) by environmental concerns
09:48 < nsh> indeed sometimes it's part of the solution
09:48 < nsh> such as the paris accords
09:48 < ebowden_> What trip. I just looked at reality, saw something, relayed it, and some fragile person was triggered.
09:48 < nsh> which are only enforceable by some manner of authority
09:48 < nsh> we're all on a trip. it's a generic term of the reality bubble of ones life
09:48 < nsh> sorry if the sense didn't obtain
09:48 < nsh> i forget people don't read the sames things i do :)
09:49 < ebowden_> I confess I haven't read all of timecube, sorry.
09:52 < nsh> read Robert Anton Wilson
09:52 < nsh> listen to terrance mckenna (but don't take any of it too seriously)
09:53 < ebowden_> Don't worry, you recommending things has already made it so that I will be pleasantly surprised if I find that it should actually be taken seriously.
09:54  * nsh smiles
09:54 < nsh> you're awfully sweet
09:55 < ebowden_> I have yet more compliments, as I am truly the sweetheart of every server. The poor, crazed homeless people that I listen to ranting on occasion talk too much sense, string sentences together too well, and are simply not delusional enough to have prepared me for you.
09:57 < ebowden_> (On a more serious note it's very sad, I come across a lot of them. I haven't seen that guy with the very sweet dog in a while, it worries me.)
09:58 < nsh> the situation is bad here too
09:58 < nsh> many are dying of exposure or neglect on the streets and in parks
09:59 < ebowden_> I'm at unimelb, but back in Tasmania we had a program that gave out Swags to the homeless.
09:59 < nsh> what's a swag in this context?
09:59 < ebowden_> Oh, sorry, Australian term.
10:00 < ebowden_> This particular one was sort of all-in-one waterproof shelter, bedroll and sleeping bag.
10:04 < nsh> ah cool
10:04 < nsh> good deeds
10:05 < nsh> how's the music scene in melb atm btw?
10:05 < nsh> if you're into music scenes
10:05 < ebowden_> It seems there were lot a people where you are who could have used one, but are now corpses.
10:05  * nsh nods
10:05 < nsh> they could have better used the millions of empty inhabitable buildings
10:05 < ebowden_> Food is great, lots of good buskers.
10:05 < nsh> and a functioning mental health system
10:06 < nsh> and a society not trained by a rabid rw media to dehumanise the poor
10:06 < nsh> but baby steps
10:06 < nsh> i have some friends who have set up shelters, solidarity not charity kinda vibe
10:06 < nsh> i ought to do the same but i've been a bit busy and distracted
10:06 < nsh> and can't do london things for more than a few days at a time due to health
10:07 < ebowden_> A swag that can be mass produced and distributed to those in need sounds awfully appealing to me.
10:11  * nsh nods
10:11 < nsh> it's still a bandaid though
10:11 < nsh> sticking plaster
10:11 < nsh> better to fix the housing inequity
10:11 < ebowden_> How?
10:11 < nsh> which isn't exactly rocket science
10:12 < nsh> put the people with no homes into the empty buildings
10:12 < nsh> and rejigger the capitalism rules so this isn't anathema
10:12 < ebowden_> By... purchasing them?
10:12  * nsh shrugs
10:12 < nsh> it's just a game
10:12 < nsh> change some rules
10:12 < ebowden_> Are actually suggesting expropriation?
10:12 < nsh> peopel forget how easy it was when they were children
10:12 < nsh> to just change the rules
10:12 < nsh> to make things more fair
10:12 < nsh> it's trivial af
10:12 < nsh> there's nothing stopping us doing it except greed and ignorance
10:13 < nsh> and a lack of collective will to action
10:13 < nsh> you can use whatever stupid words you want but i think deep down we agree that the homeless need to be housed
10:13 < ebowden_> I have some Venezuelan friends who've lost family, and are suffering as we speak thanks to this idea of yours.
10:13 < nsh> and that this is more important than the stupid words about the stupid game
10:13 < nsh> come now ebowden_
10:13 < nsh> disentangle yourself from this silliness
10:13 < nsh> it's all i ask
10:14 < ebowden_> I T   W A S N ' T   R E A L  S O C I A L I S M
10:14 < nsh> drop all attachments and appreciate that it's a game
10:14 < nsh> and it's not working
10:14 < nsh> and we can improve it
10:14 < nsh> that's all that is required
10:14 < nsh> it's really simple and easy and you can it just as well as i can
10:14 < ebowden_> What you are suggesting has been tried, and is a disaster.
10:14 < nsh> and you bloody well know it too :)
10:14 < nsh> stop importing more silliness
10:14 < nsh> there are houses
10:14 < nsh> and there are people who need to be housed
10:14 < nsh> the rest is a game
10:14 < nsh> simple axiomatic system
10:14 < nsh> we play a better game
10:15 < ebowden_> There is also money in other people's bank accounts.
10:15 < nsh> which is a game
10:15 < ebowden_> We could just expropriate that too.
10:15 < nsh> have you studied game theory, distributed systems theory?
10:15 < nsh> collective and cooperative behaviours?
10:15 < nsh> none of htis is political
10:15 < ebowden_> "none of this is political"
10:15 < nsh> we call 'politics' what happens when people do the maths badly
10:15 < nsh> the maths is not that hard
10:15 < nsh> it can be expounded to children
10:15 < nsh> by children
10:15 < ebowden_> No, it is. I've seen what happens when lunatics like you get their way.
10:16 < nsh> what's happening now?
10:16 < nsh> examine what is going on in your mind as you relate to me now
10:16 < nsh> after what i have said about putting homeless people into houses
10:16 < ebowden_> It cost my friend some of his family.
10:16 < nsh> what are the things you are importing into the interaction
10:16 < nsh> what assumptions what baggage etc.
10:17 < ebowden_> I am perfectly fine with putting homeless people in houses that are fairly paid for.
10:17 < nsh> houses that are built
10:17 < ebowden_> You seem to be suggesting something ever so slightly different.
10:17 < nsh> the money is a part of the game that gets the houses built
10:17 < nsh> and keeps the houses maintained
10:17 < nsh> and connects the houses into a plumbing system that is built and maintained
10:17 < nsh> and other systems that make the houses work well together
10:17 < nsh> the money is just an aspect of the game
10:17 < nsh> come on now
10:17 < nsh> we can improve it
10:17 < nsh> you know this
10:17 < nsh> let's just agree and be done with it
10:17 < nsh> :)
10:18 < ebowden_> Sure. Socialism isn't an improvement.
10:18 < nsh> you're importing silliness again :)
10:18 < nsh> we improve the game
10:18 < nsh> that is a possible. we come to consensus that it is possible
10:18 < ebowden_> I've seen what happens when your ilk tries to "improve the game".
10:18 < nsh> and we begin improving it
10:18  * nsh sighs
10:18 < nsh> aren't you tired of running around in circles over this?
10:18 < nsh> what ilk
10:18 < nsh> lol
10:18 < nsh> come on please
10:18 < nsh> i love you
10:18 < nsh> let's be sensible and not silly
10:18 < nsh> there is a game, it's not working, we can change it
10:18 < nsh> cooperatively
10:18 < ebowden_> People in favour of expropriation without compensation.
10:19 < nsh> there is no ilk, there is no socialism, there is no communism
10:19 < nsh> it's just a game
10:19 < nsh> that we improve together
10:19 < nsh> so people don't die on the streets
10:19 < nsh> why are you so attached to this being an intractable problem?
10:19 < nsh> how does that benefit you?
10:19 < nsh> please
10:19 < ebowden_> I am not. However, if you got your way, I would die horribly.
10:19 < nsh> jesus christ
10:19 < nsh> how?
10:19 < nsh> let's examine this leap of thinking
10:19 < ebowden_> The same way my friend's mum died.
10:19 < nsh> step by step
10:19 < nsh> well tell me the story at least
10:20 < nsh> i propose that we make things a bit fairer and you imply that i'm going to repeat the killing of someone
10:20 < nsh> it's bizarre and kinda offensive
10:20 < nsh> but i'm happy to work with it
10:20 < ebowden_> When socialists take over, all kinds of industries collapse, including pharmaceutical industries.
10:20 < nsh> so let's examine what's going on in your mind
10:20 < nsh> all of this eschatology follows necessarily from "let's rexamine coooperatively the rules of the game to make it fairer"?
10:21 < nsh> really?
10:21 < ebowden_> I rely on drugs with rather short shelf lives to surfive.
10:21 < nsh> what happened to you to make this despairing woldview so concrete?
10:21 < ebowden_> I rely on drugs with rather short shelf lives to survive.
10:21 < nsh> *worldview
10:21 < nsh> okay
10:21 < ebowden_> Simply seeing what happens when socialists take over.
10:21 < nsh> so you want there to be supply chains
10:21 < nsh> did i say anything about abolishing pharmaceutical supply chains?
10:21 < nsh> we were goign to get homeless people into houses remember
10:21 < nsh> then suddenly a huge dollop of baggage manifested
10:21 < ebowden_> Venezuela had the world's largest oil reserves, and they STILL managed to come to this.
10:21 < nsh> and now we're dealing with that
10:22 < nsh> okay
10:22 < nsh> more baggage
10:22 < nsh> let's examine why you introduced it
10:22 < ebowden_> That is socialism.
10:22 < nsh>  baggage
10:22 < nsh> let's look at the baggage
10:22 < nsh> pick it apart
10:22 < nsh> throw out the garbage
10:22 < nsh> and keep the bits if any that are useful
10:22 < nsh> we try to improve the game
10:22 < nsh> people still make medicines and get them to the peopel who rely on them
10:22 < nsh> all of this is possible
10:22 < nsh> you know it
10:22 < nsh> we can agree on it in principle
10:22 < nsh> then collaboratively define things further
10:22 < nsh> right?
10:23 < ebowden_> I am not interested in your ideology, however you try to switch the label.
10:23 < nsh> what ideology have i professed here?
10:23 < nsh> i'm talking about a hypothetical collaborative process
10:23 < nsh> i am not spouting dogma
10:23 < nsh> read everything back if you like
10:23 < ebowden_> Except...
10:23 < ebowden_> It's not just a hypothetical.
10:23 < nsh> quote me if you like :)
10:23 < ebowden_> It has been tried.
10:23 < nsh> oh right, everytrhing has been tried so it's all hopeless
10:23 < nsh> that's just more silliness
10:24 < ebowden_> No, not everything has been tried.
10:24 < nsh> almost nothing has been tried and eve the things that were tried and failed could be tried better
10:24 < nsh> *even
10:24 < ebowden_> I never said that everything has been tried.
10:24 < nsh> so why import baggage?
10:24 < nsh> when i'm talking about a process
10:24 < nsh> not history
10:24 < nsh> the process can be informed by history
10:24 < nsh> it would be silly if it were not
10:24 < nsh> but why despair? why be hopeless about it?
10:24 < nsh> we haven't even begun
10:24 < nsh> and you're despairing
10:24 < nsh> why?
10:25 < nsh> let's at least examine this together
10:25 < ebowden_> Wow, I wonder why fascists aren't using this argument. When I point out the millions murdered, they can just say that that's silliness and baggage, and re-brand their nonsense as "changing the rules".
10:25 < nsh> more baggage
10:25 < ebowden_> They aren't using it because not even they are that slimy or stupid.
10:25 < nsh> what is it that stops people collectively improving things?
10:25 < nsh> in the most abstract?
10:25 < nsh> people people get together and clean a beach up
10:26 < nsh> or pick up rubbish in the woods
10:26 < nsh> what's possible evidently, it happens
10:26 < nsh> what blocks this happening on a larger scale?
10:26 < nsh> what stops people reexamining how the game of value exchange works
10:26 < nsh> and what stops people making it work better?
10:26 < nsh> you appreciate that cryptocurrencies exist right?
10:26 < ebowden_> Yes, collecting rubbish, that's just like expropriation without compensation.
10:26 < nsh> and they have had an effect on economies?
10:26 < nsh> when did i speak of expropriation/
10:26 < nsh> i said there are empty homes
10:26 < nsh> and homeless people
10:27 < nsh> then you grabbed at expropriation
10:27 < ebowden_> And I suggested paying for them.
10:27 < nsh> and i suggested payment is part of a larger game construct
10:27 < nsh> which can be reexamined
10:27 < nsh> and you went all gulag
10:27 < nsh> come on
10:27 < nsh> :)
10:27 < nsh> i love you but this is crazy
10:27 < ebowden_> When I suggested that, you dodged and said that we can just "change the rules".
10:27 < nsh> the rules evolve constantly
10:28 < nsh> have you ever put yourself into the headspace of an accountant for tax burden minimisation for a large corporation?
10:28 < nsh> what do you think they do?
10:28 < nsh> they play the game by evolving the rules
10:28 < nsh> it's happening already constantly
10:28 < nsh> i'm saying we do it better
10:28 < nsh> collectively
10:28 < ebowden_> "But that's rape." "Well, rules change constantly. We can change the rules"
10:28 < nsh> and you think this is some kinda anathema
10:28 < nsh> and you bring up rape and other nonsense
10:28 < nsh> this is bizarre to me
10:28 < ebowden_> "WHY DO YOU THINK I SUPPORT RAPE!?"
10:28 < nsh> what's going on?
10:28 < nsh> who is being timecube now :)
10:28 < ebowden_> You.
10:29 < nsh> so a person who finds loopholes for instance starbucks licensing its IP from its subentity in switzerland to its subentity in dublin
10:29 < ebowden_> Jesus Christ, I am so glad we don't have many people like you where I live. I don't want to die.
10:29 < nsh> so that it pays no income tax on revenues
10:30 < nsh> this person is not raping anyone
10:30 < nsh> what are these people like me?
10:30 < nsh> can't you see how much baggage we're dealing with here?
10:30 < nsh> there is a lot of work to be done
10:30 < nsh> that clearly goes without saying
10:30 < nsh> and has been very well demonstrated
10:30 < nsh> for which i cannot thank you enough
10:31 < nsh> but i am an optimist and i believe we can unpack all of this
10:31 < ebowden_> I can see that you are being deliberately vague and obtuse to avoid using the words "expropriation without compensation".
10:31 < nsh> property and the valuation system which compensation is an aspect of
10:31 < nsh> are part of a game
10:31 < nsh> we are playing
10:31 < nsh> more or less voluntarily
10:31 < nsh> like the bitcoin network
10:31 < nsh> nobody is forced to run a node
10:31 < ebowden_> There's the deflection.
10:31 < nsh> try and actually work with me here for a minute
10:31 < nsh> there are rules to a game
10:32 < nsh> and from that emerges structures and patterns
10:32 < nsh> and we can assess from those structures and patterns whether they accord with our desiderata
10:32 < nsh> okay?
10:32 < nsh> there's been this whole debate about block sizes for instance
10:32 < ebowden_> If I asked someone I was suspicious of if they wanted to lynch blacks, and they deflected like you just did, I would be even more suspicious.
10:32 < nsh> because people have differing sets of desiderata, optimum functions
10:32 < nsh> are you okay?
10:32 < nsh> have i upset you somehow?
10:32 < ebowden_> Perfectly fine.
10:33 < nsh> is there something i can apologise for
10:33 < nsh> even on behalf of another
10:33 < nsh> i am happy to
10:33 < ebowden_> No. Hypothyroidism turned me into someone who is very difficult to upset.
10:33 < nsh> i am sorry for anything in your life that has caused the manifestation of upset in this conversation
10:33 < nsh> i am sorry
10:34 < nsh> now can we agree that nobody is doing anything close to lynching
10:34 < ebowden_> I do have a sense of self preservation left, but no fear, anger or disgust. I used to hate horror movies, now I can enjoy them.
10:34 < nsh> even hypothetically
10:34 < nsh> in this conversation
10:34 < ebowden_> But I have to be especially careful around traffic.
10:34 < nsh> we're just discussing in the abstract whether it's possible to change the rules of a game that is currently not working very well for large numbers of people
10:34 < nsh> whose suffering we both agree ought to be minimised
10:34 < nsh> this is a find starting point of consensus
10:34 < nsh> in a collaborative exercise
10:35 < nsh> and can we try and not get upset or hyperbolic if possible
10:35 < nsh> or maybe we should just leave it for now
10:35 < nsh> i don't want to doubledown on what isn't working
10:35 < nsh> but it's been helpful and educational for me to try
10:35 < nsh> and i hope it hasn't been that terrible for you to try also
10:36 < nsh> i love you ebowden_. i'm sorry again
10:36 < nsh> we'll talk another time :)
10:37 < ebowden_> That is very creepy.
10:37 < ebowden_> Don't tell random people online that you love them.
10:37 < ebowden_> Anyway, another result of my illness is that I must always take my medicine.
10:38 < ebowden_> If I don't bad things happen, and they get worse, and irreversible the longer I'm off it.
10:38 < ebowden_> I know what "rule changes" you are talking about, and they have made my friend miserable. I watched as his mother died, and now he's gone dark. I like to think that it's because of the power cut, and it probably is, but I know he could simply be dead.
10:39 < nsh> i'm sorry for expressing love towards you as an unfamiliar person. i won't do it again
10:39 < nsh> and i'm sorry for your friend and his mother
10:40 < nsh> and i'm sorry that you think you know what i mean and relate to it so antagonistically
10:40 < nsh> and i'm sorry that i have brought the surface of your consciousness this relation and it has caused some difficulty
10:40 < nsh> and i'm sorry for anything i can contributed to that has exasperated that difficulty
10:40 < nsh> now or in the past
10:40 < nsh> *i have
10:41 < ebowden_> Unless you've run an elaborate deception, I have a very clear picture of what you are getting at.
10:41 < nsh> i'm sorry for the acts of my 'ilk'
10:41 < nsh> i'm sorry for the clarity of your picture :)
10:41 < nsh> but i'd appreciate if you'd elaborate
10:41 < nsh> presumably it's some kind of authoritarian centrally-planned-economy forced expropriation bad trip
10:41 < nsh> stalinist, maoist, whatever
10:42 < ebowden_> When I said "Expropriation Without Compensation", you immediately deflected.
10:42 < nsh> i understand that to some extent
10:42 < nsh> i can see how you saw it as deflection because it was operative in your model of what's going on in my mind
10:42 < ebowden_> Do you support expropriation of these properties without compensation or not?
10:42 < nsh> which is not in a perfect correspondence with my model of what's going on in my mind
10:42 < ebowden_> Simple question with a simple answer.
10:42 < nsh> i believe people should not be expropriated against without compensation
10:42 < nsh> of course
10:43 < nsh> i believe people should not be robbed of anything
10:43 < nsh> but especially their dignity and security of life
10:43 < nsh> i don't believe that property is some god given notion
10:43 < nsh> i think it's a human cultural creation
10:43 < nsh> that is subject to revisitation
10:43 < ebowden_> Ah, there it is.
10:43 < nsh> but i don't want to do things in a coercively violent manner
10:43 < nsh> i am against all coercive authority
10:43 < nsh> but you still project this very furiously upon me
10:43 < nsh> which is interesting
10:44 < nsh> and it speaks a lot to how i have failed to pierce through the things you bring in interpretation when you read what i write
10:44 < nsh> for which i am sorry, again
10:44 < ebowden_> Furiously? Maybe once I would have been furious. But for the same reason that I am absolutely fucked if people start "changing the rules" like you suggest, I am not angry.
10:45 < nsh> you haven't addressed why you only see one kind of outcome
10:45 < nsh> to a process which is inherently open-ended
10:45 < ebowden_> So. How do you plan on giving these homes to the homeless?
10:45 < nsh> what if the rules were changed so that medicines for hyperthyroidism getting to the patients was the most important thing in the system?
10:45 < nsh> that rule change doesn't kill you, does it?
10:45 < nsh> so we're in agreement that it isn't changing things that kills you
10:45 < nsh> it's a certain kind of changes done in a certain kind of way
10:45 < nsh> out of a certain kind of motivation in line with a certain ideology
10:45 < nsh> or praxis
10:46 < nsh> which you assume that i share
10:46 < nsh> for some reason
10:46 < ebowden_> Like confiscating property, such as buildings and land, and not paying for it.
10:46 < nsh> i didn't say anything either fwiw about giving homes to anyone
10:46 < nsh> just letting people live in them
10:46 < ebowden_> Those kinds of changes.
10:46 < nsh> which is called squatting
10:46 < nsh> and has existed for hundreds of thousands of years
10:46 < nsh> quite happily alongside property rights
10:46 < ebowden_> I know someone who lost all his money because of that.
10:46 < nsh> i feel terrible sorry for htem
10:46 < nsh> i know people who have died on the streets
10:47 < nsh> and i feel terrible sorry for them too
10:47 < ebowden_> The squatter's rights thing worked out great for Greece.
10:47 < nsh> does the loss of one negate the loss of another?
10:47 < nsh> baggage...
10:47 < nsh> how many empty inhabitable houses are there in the UK
10:47 < nsh> or Australia?
10:47 < ebowden_> I fundamentally do not believe that I have the right to anyone else's body or property.
10:47 < nsh> what is the cost to the property owners of people inhabiting them?
10:47 < ebowden_> *I fundamentally do not believe that I have the right to the use of anyone else's body or property.
10:47 < nsh> it is a net return when they pay rent
10:47 < nsh> can rent be more or less fair?
10:48 < nsh> of course it can be more fair
10:48 < nsh> should there be an absolute right to own property as a speculative investment and leave it to ruin through inoccupation?
10:48 < nsh> of course there should not
10:48 < nsh> this is laughable
10:48 < nsh> so all of this pathologising is really not necessary
10:48 < nsh> it's baggage
10:48 < nsh> and we can deal with it
10:49 < nsh> if you are willing
10:49 < ebowden_> Yes, it always starts with the unoccupied houses.
10:49 < nsh> it's not for me to coerce you into anything you are unwilling to do
10:49 < nsh> i am against coercion and violence
10:49 < ebowden_> Then the ones that are "too big".
10:49 < nsh> and i wouldn't put you on a slippery slope to slip up on either
10:49 < nsh> because i care about you
10:49 < ebowden_> Lots of socialists love to say that.
10:49 < ebowden_> Then they get power.
10:49 < nsh> anyway, i have to do some other productive things
10:49 < nsh> it's been a hoot
10:49 < nsh> no hard feelings :)
10:50 < ebowden_> So long as you don't fight in any socialist militias, you have nothing to worry about from me.
10:51 < ebowden_> I love this idea, everything that is inextricably linked to my insane ideas is just "baggage".
10:52 < nsh> think about it at least
10:52 < ebowden_> Are you a fascist? That whole holocaust thing is all just baggage, bringing it up is silliness.
10:52 < nsh> but it's your trip
10:52 < nsh> as you may recall
10:53 < ebowden_> This is an amazing idea, no matter how bloodstained your ideas are, you can simply call anyone who catches a whiff "silly" for linking all that "baggage" to them.
10:54 < nsh> i apologise for any offence
10:54 < ebowden_> I am not offended.
10:54 < nsh> evidently not :)
10:54 < nsh> and i apologise for all bloodshed associated with ideas oyu believe me to propounding
10:54 < nsh> even if it is the most remotely estranged from my personal culpability
10:54 < nsh> and i am regretful if not responsible
10:55 < nsh> *to be
10:55 < ebowden_> If I still got angry, we would not have had this conversation, and I would not be able to debate holocaust deniers and other such people.
10:55 < nsh> perhaps one day you will teach us the secret of your total conquest of anger :)
10:55 < nsh> i for one could benefit incredibly from this superpower
10:56 < ebowden_> Yes, just as the Nazis I talked to are not responsible for the holocaust, I agree that you are not responsible for Kaleb's suffering, or the death of his mother.
10:56 < nsh> thank you
10:56 < ebowden_> There is no "secret".
10:56 < nsh> well, i doubt there is no anger either :)
10:56 < ebowden_> My brain was damaged in some way.
10:56 < nsh> it can just be more or less conscious
10:56 < nsh> but i don't know your subjective experiences
10:57 < nsh> i'm just speaking from the generalisation of my own and my observations of others
10:57 < nsh> and i have yet to meet anyone without anger
10:57 < nsh> and when people start associating me with holocaust deniers or the lynchers of black people
10:57 < ebowden_> And to be clear, anger, fear, disgust, that's all there to protect you.
10:57 < nsh> i tend ot presume it's because they are experiencing emotional energies
10:57 < nsh> that might be considered negative
10:57 < nsh> but it's not for me to judge i suppose
10:58 < nsh> exasperation perhaps if not anger or upset or offence
10:58 < nsh> i'm sorry regardless
10:58 < ebowden_> I am not a better person for having parts of me ripped out, nor do I believe any such thing. I am just more vulnerable to exploitation and accidental death with the minor upside of being able to talk to holocaust deniers and other ideologues without a rise in blood pressure.
10:59 < nsh> swings and roundabouts i suppose
10:59 < ebowden_> *ripped out or destroyed.
10:59 < nsh> i'm sorry for whatever happened that ripped out or destroyed parts of you
10:59 < nsh> as you construe yourself
10:59 < ebowden_> Literal and figurative actually.
10:59 < nsh> :(
11:00 < ebowden_> If you take anything from this, let it be this: Please, please do not ever attempt to replicate what allows me to be calm for this.
11:02 < nsh> point taken and noted with thanks
11:02 < nsh> although i'm not sure exactly what it was so i can't explicitly avoid it
11:03 < ebowden_> I could draw up an experimental protocol that might recapitulate what happened to me, but for similar reasons to why I haven't publicly talked about my idea for a nerve agent more powerful than any before it, I won't.
11:03 < nsh> but it sounds rather traumatic
11:03 < nsh> okay
11:03 < ebowden_> You can avoid by getting enough B12 and making sure that if you get hypothyroidism, you get it treated promptly.
11:03 < ebowden_> You can it avoid by getting enough B12 and making sure that if you get hypothyroidism, you get it treated promptly.
11:04 < ebowden_> *You can avoid it by getting enough B12 and making sure that if you get hypothyroidism, you get it treated promptly.
11:05 < ebowden_> Damn typos.
11:06 < ebowden_> I have never been the same after what happened. Sure, I guess it could be useful being able to eat dinner without any problems while someone spams you with scat porn, but that's a very minor benefit considering what is taken from you.
11:07 < nsh> B12, noted
11:08 < nsh> i think it may be in my family
11:08 < nsh> my dad has some thyroid issues
11:10 < nsh> i am also dependent on medicines, fwiw, oral corticosteroids which i've been taking for several years now
11:10 < nsh> albeit at a relatively low dose
11:11 < nsh> but if i stop taking them my face falls apart, quite painfully
11:11 < nsh> and the skin elsewhere
11:11 < nsh> and now i colitis probably associated with this dependency
11:11 < nsh> i would probably not last long without medicines
11:12 < nsh> so perhaps you might even take it on some level of trust i wouldn't especially contrive to disrupt access to medicines any kind of revolutionary nonsense
11:12 < nsh> +with
11:12 < ebowden_> Hypo or hyperthyroidism?
11:13 < ebowden_> I don't believe that you, or any socialist for that matter were trying to do that.
11:16 < nsh> but you seemed to think it was an inevitable or likely conclusion to any project built on principles of more equitable economic interactions
11:16 < nsh> but let's leave that aside perhaps
11:16 < nsh> i'll have to ask my dad
11:19 < nsh> hypo, underactive
11:19 < nsh> also b12 deficiency can result from coeliac disease, which my mum and sister and her daughter [my niece] have
11:19 < nsh> but i have failed to test positive for
11:19 < nsh> but i still have gut problems that are exasperated by glutens and milk proteins
11:20 < nsh> (as well as autism/aspergers, which carries a risk correlation)
11:20 < nmz787_> do you eat enough fermented foods?
11:21 < nmz787_> thought about a gut microbiome transplant?
11:21 < nmz787_> nsh: ^
11:21 < nsh> yeah good shout
11:21 < nsh> i ought to get some sourkraut or whatever it is
11:22 < nsh> unsure what is required for microbiome transplant
11:22 < nsh> sounds somewhat drastic but maybe it isn't
11:22 < nsh> i take pre- and probiotics
11:22 < nsh> which helps with the gut a lot
11:22 < ebowden_> By b12 deficiency was a result of losing part of the bit of my bowel that is supposed to absorb it.
11:23 < nsh> well, this is not entirely unlikely for me
11:23 < ebowden_> (Along with a bunch of other stuff.)
11:23 < nsh> hopefully i can reverse the colitis before i lose more absorbative function
11:23 < ebowden_> All because one doctor was sure I was fine, I just had gastro enteritis and should go home and recover.
11:23 < nsh> have been on an 80 day course of gastroresistant corticosteroids but i suspect they will not result in a permanent cure
11:23 < nsh> :(
11:23 < nsh> that sucks
11:24 < ebowden_> I hear good things about coconut yogurt.
11:24  * nsh notes with thanks
11:24 < ebowden_> My mother has been helped by some clinically tested supplement. (It has a ridiculous number of ingredients.)
11:25 < nsh> hm
11:25 < ebowden_> I shall ask her what it's called.
11:26 < nsh> thanks :)
11:27 < nsh> (probably couldn't afford it though and doubtful it would be available under the national health system)
11:27 < ebowden_> But yes, appendicitis left untreated. Appendix burst, and just as one bad apple spoils the bunch, so too did it spoil part of my stomach, small intestine and large intestine.
11:27 < nsh> :(
11:27 < nsh> that's awful
11:27 < ebowden_> And give me full on sepsis.
11:27 < nsh> ugh
11:27 < nsh> i'm sorry
11:27 < ebowden_> Haemolytic bacteria colonising my bloodstream.
11:28 < ebowden_> The funny thing is, it only hurt early on.
11:28 < ebowden_> When it got really bad, I felt fine.
11:29 < ebowden_> I was about a couple of hours away from death when they discovered the sepsis. Apparently I had readings of some immune molecule(forgot which, I was on ketamine and morphine) you usually find shortly after someone has already died of sepsis. I'm sure the pathologist got quite the shock.
11:30 < ebowden_> *I had levels of some immune molecule
11:31 < ebowden_> I had a team of pharmacologists rushing to give me the cocktail of those miraculous antibiotics you always hear about farmers squandering.
11:31 < ebowden_> *give me a cocktail of
11:39 < nsh> eep
11:39 < nsh> i've been on IV antibiotics twice
11:39 < nsh> after being close to death's door
11:39 < nsh> goes down well with some morphine tbh
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14:36 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/coindesk/status/1106607760492429312
14:36 < yoleaux> "And just like that, I was now officially a cyborg." @BLR13explores the bleeding-edge intersection of bitcoin and body-hacking http://ow.ly/hCx530o3OOL (@coindesk)
14:44 < kanzure> http://www.fdareview.org/issues/why-the-fda-has-an-incentive-to-delay-the-introduction-of-new-drugs/
14:51 < kanzure> https://www.coindesk.com/i-got-the-mark-of-the-beast-and-itll-hold-my-bitcoin
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