--- Log opened Tue Apr 16 00:00:46 2019
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03:17 < nmz787> fenn: I'm thinking more like 2 stainless steel plates, with mixer stuff milled into them, and another section that you could wrap hot wire around, and maybe pack inside fire bricks for insulation... or alternatively use an induction heater at that point
03:18 < nmz787> thought is lazy mans autoclave
03:18 < nmz787> the plates could be separated later to scrub out if your culture media starts to cook inside and gunk things up
03:25 < archels> https://portail.polytechnique.edu/lob/fr/recherche/microscopies-avancees/3-photon-microscopy-deep-tissue-imaging
03:25 < archels> we're doing 3 photon microscopy now? crazy
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03:30 < archels> reposting this 'cause it's so awesome http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)30273-9
03:30 < archels> we can measure the activity in vivo now of upwards of 10,000 cortical cells across the whole cortical depth
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03:40 < archels> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fu3anMtDS8
03:40 < yoleaux> Chronos Ring - Bullet time array of 48 high-speed cameras - YouTube
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11:31 < estill01> nmz787: culture media is generally sterile 'out of the box' / needs to be for cell bio to avoid bacterial/fungal overgrowth. There are other things that can be done as well; what's your use-case/can you say more about what you are trying to achieve?
11:44 < nmz787> estill01: culture media you make yourself won't be sterile, not a chance
11:45 < nmz787> estill01: idea is take culture media mix (powder), put it in a hopper, add water to a separate tank, and then have the device mix the two at a programmed ratio, and sterilize it in-line, before it is provided to cell culture
12:34 < estill01> nmz787: Can you say more about the context pls. Is this a self-contained 'bot' idea? Re "before it is provided to cell culture".
12:36 < estill01> nmz787: Otherwise it sounds like the goal is to make cell culture media from a vendor-supplied powder; in that case I'd assume there are well-defined protocols for sterile preparation of the media.
12:38 < estill01> nmz787: Broadly speaking, one approach could be: put all the gear in a tissue culture hood / build a workspace with laminar flow+filters (i.e. build a TC hood); UV sterilize the powder; boil the water; mix water and powder; add some anti-fungals/biotics if you have them; package into a sterile container and seal. Then use this prepared media as needed.
12:39 < estill01> nmz787: baseline, just need more context to be helpful
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14:22 < estill01> nmz787: Just read the room log. I don't think the 'DIY autoclave' idea you outline is needed or will achieve your goal, if your goal is as I understand it is to prepare 'DIY cell culture media'.
14:22 < estill01> nmz787: That said, am a fan of the goal
14:23 < estill01> Subjecting the culture media components to autoclave-level heat will cook / degrade the biologically useful components of culture media.
14:26 < estill01> nmz787: Do you have experience in tissue culture lab work? I do not consider myself an expert, though I do have direct experience and have used the techniques to develop novel bio-technologies.
14:27 < estill01> nmz787: / happy to help on a DIY Culture Media project / share an interest in making it easier and cheaper to do DIY tissue culture / cell bio.
14:34 < nsh> what's that thing 3brown1blue has as a sponsor sometimes. lets you submit experiments as code using an automated lab
14:35 < nsh> .g emeraldcloudlab
14:35 < yoleaux> https://www.emeraldcloudlab.com/
14:35 < nsh> wonder how diybio'ers feel about this
14:35 < nsh> seems useful
14:35 < nsh> but depends on scope i suppose
14:36 < estill01> depends on what you're trying to do / yeah
14:36 < estill01> Last I checked they had a pre-defined set of experiment types they would run
14:36 < estill01> (Which makes some sense)
14:36 < nsh> https://www.emeraldcloudlab.com/experimental-capabilities
14:36 < nsh> looks pretty neat
14:36 < nsh> if they'll send you samples too after prep that'd be awesome
14:36 < nsh> (interfacing with whatever the frozen version of amazon delivery is or such)
14:37 < nsh> man half of this stuff didn't exist when i was in the lab (2009)
14:37 < nsh> or i have a bad memory
14:37 < nsh> or both
14:37 < nsh> .wik Matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization
14:37 < yoleaux> "In mass spectrometry, matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization (MALDI) is an ionization technique that uses a laser energy absorbing  matrix to create ions from large molecules with minimal fragmentation." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix-assisted_laser_desorption/ionization
14:38 < nsh> okay that's old tbf
14:38 < nsh> aye they do chilled and warm sample transport
14:38 < nsh> neat
14:38 < nsh> and cryostorage
14:39 < nsh> pretty amazing to automate all of this
14:39 < estill01> yeah
14:39 < estill01> Can definitely do some interesting things
14:39 < estill01> though also definitely some limitation
14:39 < nsh> also if people can have their experiment code and results shareable then you get more rich ecosystem
14:40 < nsh> even automatic collaboration suggestions
14:40 < nsh> or implicit collaboration even
14:40 < nsh> hmm
14:40 < estill01> Presumably there's some level of data privacy
14:42 < estill01> there's a waitlist
14:42 < estill01> And price is not public (yes?)
14:47 < nsh> dunnos
14:48 < estill01> nsh: what kind of tech/R&D are you into/pursuing?
14:48 < nsh> ideally people like NiH, Wellcome Trust, large private research funders would make funds available to 'amateur'/diy researchers to use platforms like this
14:48 < nsh> but dunno whose leg you'd have to hump to get something like that to happen
14:49 < nsh> mmm
14:49 < nsh> i'm into the interface of physics mathematics computer science and cryptography
14:49 < nsh> and some esoteric stuff that's more vaguely related
14:49 < nsh> don't really follow much in bio really anymore
14:50 < estill01> cool
14:50 < nsh> neither do i really 'do' anything :)
14:50 < estill01> fair
14:50 < nsh> i'm just waiting until i've figured it all out
14:50 < nsh> then i'll do some things, probably
14:50 < nsh> yourself?
14:50 < estill01> primarily interested in building 'cognitive longevity' systems
14:50 < estill01> + neural prosthetics
14:51 < nsh> can you elaborate on what 'cognitive longevity' means?
14:51 < estill01> spent time developing organ engineering tech
14:51 < estill01> yeah
14:51 < estill01> You can focus on saving your body or your mind
14:51 < estill01> a lot of 'longevity tech' focuses on the body
14:51 < estill01> Which is great
14:51 < estill01> but baseline I'd like my mind to survive for a very long time
14:52 < estill01> So I developed some tech related to growing organs
14:52 < estill01> and large-scale tissue systems
14:52 < estill01> So I could grow brains and cables made of neurons
14:52  * nsh smiles
14:52 < estill01> plug myself in and spread my consciousness across multiple nodes in a network
14:53 < nsh> why not just unplug your consciousness from the body you presume creates it :)
14:53 < nsh> gotta be worth a go anyway
14:53 < nsh> it's remarkable how few people consider this
14:53 < estill01> I'm very much a supporter of building 'brain in a box' type devices
14:53 < nsh> given the incredibly rich body of historical and living traditions in demonstrating that consciousness precedes embodiment
14:53  * nsh shruugs
14:53 < nsh> *shrugs
14:54 < estill01> Does 'brain in a box' ache the 'unplug your consciousness from the body' outlook you state?
14:54 < estill01> *achieve
14:55 < estill01> In any event, I am actually legit serious about these goals and have spent the last handful of years building tech and devices that help achieve it
14:55 < nsh> no
14:55 < nsh> cool :)
14:55 < nsh> i mean, this is a brain in box that's typing right now
14:55 < estill01> true
14:55 < nsh> or rather, this is consciousness inhabiting a brain in a mamallian box
14:55 < estill01> But a fragile one
14:56 < nsh> and i'm suggesting the consciousness is viable independently of its embodiment
14:56 < estill01> I agree with that
14:56 < nsh> and this can be self-demonstrated through meditative practice
14:56 < estill01> But you have to transfer to a suitable computing medium
14:56 < nsh> lol, well
14:56 < nsh> yes, the universe
14:56 < nsh> which is not especially more work than learning a second language as an adult
14:56 < estill01> I guess, I just would like to retain the agency 'feature' present in our current lived conscious experience
14:56 < nsh> the notion that we need physical artefacts called 'computers' for computing is an obstruction
14:57 < nsh> mm
14:57 < nsh> if you define agency as having a way to interact with the world, then there must be a medium
14:57 < nsh> that is true
14:57 < nsh> and computing systems or networks are a good interface for that
14:57 < estill01> win
14:57 < estill01> lol
14:58 < nsh> but all of the cosmos is a quantum computer already and the vacuum itself has (various kinds of) infinite processing capacity
14:58 < estill01> I'm into that too
14:58 < nsh> and so it's somewhat quixotic to try to shuffle electrons and holes around in dubiously efficient ways
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14:58 < nsh> to achieve what is already achieved
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14:59 < nsh> but there's a large gap of imagination which means people think this way
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14:59 < nsh> and it's been hard to bridge
14:59 < nsh> since materialism became dogma a couple of centuries ago
14:59 < estill01> I do hear what you're saying
14:59 < nsh> and since most of the metaphysical revolutionary potential of QM has been suppressed for a century
14:59 < nsh> but we're getting there
14:59 < nsh> any it's fine to work from both ends
14:59 < estill01> But, am also a fan of what I currently know of conscious living
14:59 < nsh> (the praxic and the metaphysical)
15:00 < nsh> well, that's because you're probably not old and/or infirm
15:00 < estill01> step 1, live for a lot longer
15:00 < nsh> and being in a computer may have other unpleasantnesses
15:00 < nsh> otoh depends on the quality/fidelity of the simulations
15:00 < estill01> Step 2, expand definition of conscious lived experience to fit preference
15:01 < nsh> a complement to step 1 would also be to expand the bandwidth of consciousness so that each clock-second of lived experience is far more meaningful and has a far higher processing capacity
15:01 < nsh> which is another thing that can be done with minimal (european materialist) technology
15:01 < nsh> (ie again meditation and other yogic work)
15:01 < nsh> (or exogenous chemicals that increase e.g. neural correlation lengths)
15:02 < estill01> Maybe/not discounting. Just also want the euro-style
15:02  * nsh nods
15:02 < nsh> not proselyting, just adding more possibilities which people are free to be more or less interesting in :)
15:04 < nsh> what did you mean by cable made of neurons btw?
15:04 < nsh> biological ones?
15:04 < nsh> *cables
15:04 < estill01> yeah
15:05 < estill01> Turns out if you plug two brains together with neurons they naturally share comprehensible information
15:05 < estill01> i.e. radically extended cognitive life is a very buildable technology
15:06 < estill01> (Euro style :) )
15:06 < nsh> so another assumption that's made and rarely questioned
15:06 < nsh> is that brains, neurons, individual living organisms, etc. are operating independently of each other
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15:07 < nsh> that is to say that animateness is self-created self-standing
15:07 < nsh> which is not necessarily the case
15:07 < nsh> a counter-proposal is that all consciousness is intricately dependent on all other consciousness
15:07 < nsh> within some causally connected region of spacetime
15:08 < nsh> which isn't to say that there are not benefits to connecting brains neurally
15:08 < nsh> but there are also benefits to discovering how they are already connected
15:08 < estill01> fair
15:09 < estill01> Walter Freeman III, a very well regarded neuroscientist believed there were quantum connections between brains, though did not formalize/prove that belief
15:09 < nsh> he is/was correct
15:09 < nsh> (or so i believe)
15:09 < nsh> there's also
15:09 < nsh> .wik Holonomic brain theory
15:09 < yoleaux> "Holonomic brain theory is a branch of neuroscience investigating the idea that human consciousness is formed by quantum effects in or between brain cells." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory
15:09 < nsh> but that doesn't emphasise the interconnectedness or interpenetration of consciousness
15:09 < estill01> And beyond that, a simple understanding of quantum field theory clearly outlines that there is a single quantum state that everything is a part of
15:09 < nsh> however it's kind of implicit in a way
15:10 < nsh> right, all subsystem states contribute to the total state vector
15:10 < nsh> you can... see this :)
15:10 < nsh> well, kinda
15:10 < estill01> It's fundamental to QFT (not an expert, but am an interested amateur in the space)
15:11 < estill01> In any event, If anyone shares an interest in building 'cognitive longevity' systems, let me know
15:12 < estill01> I work actively on that
15:12 < nsh> undoubtedly a few people here :)
15:13 < estill01> Very cool. Would love to/am working to get organized a bit better to help ship some real product / a usable system.
15:14 < nsh> what do you imagine as possible products?
15:14 < nsh> i've had an aspiration since 2004 or so to have a means for cocreated shared lucid dreams
15:15 < estill01> That would be achievable with these devices
15:15 < nsh> as a way of enriching human interactions for cultural or scientific or diplomatic etc purposes
15:15 < nsh> or just for fun
15:15 < nsh> cool
15:15 < nsh> then i'd be interested :)
15:15 < nsh> (but unclear how much i could help, as yet)
15:15 < estill01> Cool and fair
15:15 < estill01> Definitely some todos on the tech front
15:16 < estill01> And all support is helpful
15:16 < estill01> Re the tech todos, what's needed is: (1) grow/maintain brain in bot / outside your body, (2) make interface systems
15:17 < estill01> re (2), there exists data showing that 'cables' made of neurons ('neuron cables') would work
15:17 < nsh> the brain may not function very well without a body btw
15:17 < nsh> (which may seem paradoxical to what i was saying earlier but it's not really)
15:17 < estill01> that's a fair concern
15:17 < estill01> Though manageable
15:18 < nsh> to some extent there is a dependency on CNS and the electromagnetic fields created by the musculature
15:18 < nsh> i mean it's well
15:18 < estill01> I see that question as, "how good are the brains you make"
15:18 < nsh> you can dream and when you're dreaming things are mostly tapped off at the base of the brain
15:18 < nsh> so there is some independence
15:18 < estill01> And there are a handful of ways to assess that and deal with any shortcomings
15:18 < nsh> but you'll have noted that lucidity in dreams is not always that great
15:18 < nsh> reasoning, rationality, memory etc.
15:19 < nsh> this is because memories are kinda located in the body to some extent
15:19 < nsh> or rather.. mmm
15:19 < estill01> There are also experiments involving cultured neural tissues
15:19 < estill01> that fire in constructive ways
15:19 < estill01> In petri dishes
15:19  * nsh nods
15:19 < nsh> to some extent the evolutionarily later parts of the brain are independent of the body
15:19 < estill01> That said, definitely an area for filling in some unknowns
15:20 < estill01> but quite doable and many tools available
15:20 < nsh> ie the neocortex could be layered onto any kind of body and would adapt
15:20 < nsh> the older stuff is more codependent
15:20 < estill01> yeah
15:20 < nsh> but who knows how adaptable it is really
15:20 < estill01> well
15:20 < nsh> we haven't done enough experiments to have much of an idea
15:20 < estill01> Basically anything you 'plug into' the brain the neocortex figures out how to use
15:21 < estill01> Comes to equilibrium with
15:21 < estill01> the biggest challenge is the 'grow a brain in a box' element
15:21 < estill01> I've developed some tech useful to this
15:21 < estill01> But there is more required
15:21 < estill01> specifically, made a device that grows vasculature into organoids / proto-organs
15:22 < estill01> Which is required for growing organs (/brains)
15:22 < estill01> but
15:22 < nsh> an issue is that the DNA has a pretty clear notion of the final shape of the body it is growing
15:22 < nsh> well, not exactly
15:22 < nsh> it's kinda teased out during an interplay with the environment
15:22 < estill01> Still need to do immune system and 'clean up crew' systems
15:23 < nsh> so there's the issue with a hologram that you can't chop off a quarter of the plate and change that and get a new hologram
15:23 < nsh> because the projected image is distributed on the plate
15:23 < estill01> Baseline in organoids is if you let them grow, they develop into roughly the proper form
15:23 < nsh> so there's no separability in that way such as you have with a photograph
15:23 < nsh> (and it's likely that the form of the organism is holographically encoded in DNA, or at least that this is an analogy that obtains to some degree)
15:23 < estill01> I'd go with 'analogy'
15:24 < nsh> so there may be some resistance to growing the brain without the kind of body that is 'supposed' to support that brain
15:24 < estill01> Fair concern
15:24 < estill01> but
15:24 < nsh> but otoh it may be possible to figure out what has to be changed in the genome
15:24 < nsh> or to create the epigenetic environment that allows the body to be an apparatus without affecting the devo of the brain
15:24 < estill01> Existing experimental results show that simply letting a neural organic grow has it develop in the way you would expect
15:25 < nsh> letting what grow?
15:25 < estill01> The neural organoid
15:25 < nsh> hmm
15:25 < estill01> *organic => organoid
15:25 < estill01> I keep getting autocorrected
15:25 < nsh> oh actually
15:25 < nsh> yes i suppose this follows
15:25 < nsh> from back when they grew an ear on a mouse or pig whatever it was
15:26 < estill01> yeah
15:26 < nsh> the organs may have independent specification
15:26 < nsh> because they have functional distinction
15:26 < estill01> The tech is amazingly straightforward
15:26 < estill01> \/ kind of 'just works'
15:26 < nsh> organs/organoids
15:26 < estill01> right
15:26 < estill01>  / probably
15:26 < estill01>  / something to that effect
15:26 < estill01> It's a defined biological program
15:26 < estill01> that you let run
15:27 < estill01> It's awesome
15:27 < nsh> neat
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15:28 < estill01> Well, super psyched on this all.
15:28 < estill01> Great to chat a bit
15:28 < estill01> Gotta go type on a web system I'm building to help organize all this work so it actually gets done
15:28 < estill01> So I/we get the cognitive longevity systems I/we want
15:29 < estill01> will be back / psyched to talk more on this all with anyone who's interested.
15:29 < estill01> And also psyched to help on the DIY cell culture type projects e.g. at-home cell culture media production
15:34 < nsh> neat
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15:34 < superkuh_> Whew. At least one of the channels I lurk in on freenode isn't set +r.
15:35 < nsh> hi superkuh_
15:35 < nsh> terrible being a services second-class citizen aye
15:36 < superkuh_> On vacation and forgot I changed my freenode password to some incredibly long impossible to remember thing.
15:36 < nsh> soon they'll make it so you can only identify to nickserv with your government wallet ID and a DNA swab
15:36 < superkuh_> So I'm unreg for the next week.
15:36 < nsh> oh dear
15:36 < nsh> hack your other client to /ns group add you
15:36 < nsh> or something :)
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15:36 < nsh> or use sendpass if you have access to the email associated
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16:21 < fenn> estill01: nsh's belief in disembodied consciousness is not the prevailing opinion around here
16:22 < fenn> that said, we discourage pointless philosophical rambling. it's more important to talk about actually doing things
16:23 < fenn> i wonder how emerald cloud lab managed to convince investors to give them money, instead of going with transcriptic which has the first mover advantage (by several years it seems)
16:24 < fenn> from a user standpoint, now i'm annoyed that there are two bio-experiment protocol languages to learn
16:25 < nsh> hopefully they standardise i guess
16:26 < estill01> fenn: what do you work on / what kind of tech are you focused on/interested in developing
16:30 < fenn> currently even more useless than nsh, sorry to say
16:31 < fenn> recent fantasies include compressed earth construction, mobile sleep pods
16:32 < fenn> i have basic competency in manufacturing, life science lab techniques, computer programming, electronics, and spend too much time reading about aerospace
16:32 < estill01> awesome
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16:35 < fenn> "wherever you go, there you are" is starting to seem like a curse. before i can do anything interesting i have to fix my stupid brain
16:35 < fenn> so i've been half-heartedly learning neuroscience for the last decade or so
16:36 < estill01> Anyone on here actively working on brain computer interfaces?
16:36 < estill01>  / interested in that
16:37 < fenn> we had a near infrared brain blood oxygenation project, but it didn't go anywhere
16:37 < estill01> What were the goals?
16:38 < fenn> the idea is basically to use machine learning to infer cognitive states from an array of LED/photodiode pairs (and EEG electrodes added to the mix)
16:38 < estill01> ?
16:38 < estill01> What were the LEDs doing?
16:38 < estill01>  / how were they situated?
16:38 < fenn> blood changes color when oxygenated and this can indicate brain activity. the LED shines light through the skull and it reflects off the blood more or less
16:39 < fenn> er, reflects off the blood more or less depending on the oxygenation state of the blood
16:39 < estill01> How was the signal to be recorded?
16:40 < fenn> something like an arduino
16:40 < estill01> Hmm
16:40 < estill01> i.e. a camera
16:40 < fenn> no, the sensor is higher dynamic range than a camera, and there are only a dozen "pixels" or so covering the entire scalp
16:41 < fenn> it's pretty low resolution, but also very cheap and safe
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16:41 < fenn> higher bit depth too, which is more important i suppose
16:43 < fenn> as for "writing" to the brain, focused ultrasound seems to be the least invasive way
16:43 < estill01> Depends on target resolution
16:43 < fenn> but that requires some fancy math to do beam forming, and i haven't learned how yet
16:45 < fenn> the same math comes up a lot in different domains, so it wouldn't be wasted effort
16:50 < estill01> I'm interested in semi-invasive systems
16:50 < estill01>  / willing to accept invasiveness in a trade-off for functionality
16:50 < estill01>  / higher-performance
16:51 < estill01> Safety of course also paramount since the idea is to actually use the systems
16:51 < estill01> Have a system design at proof-of-concept level
16:51 < fenn> yes i think an injectable microelectrode array will be the state of the art for some time to come, and people will actually start using it once they figure out how to make it more compliant to reduce cell death over long time scales
16:51 < estill01> read / write
16:52 < estill01> Lots of ways around that
16:52 < fenn> by injectable i mean a rolled up membrane through a small hole in the skull
16:52 < fenn> origami fold
16:52 < estill01> sure
16:52 < estill01> Other available approaches as well
16:53 < estill01> anyone have experience with microelectroncis?
16:53 < fenn> what does that mean?
16:54 < estill01> A lot of ppl have hardware expertise, though developing 'miniaturized' systems is a more rare skillset
16:55 < fenn> nmz787 has experience with focused ion beam lithography and other photolithography stuff
16:56 < fenn> designing a complete asic is sort of a big deal though
16:56 < estill01> yeah
16:56 < estill01> cool
16:56 < estill01> hmm
16:56 < estill01> Any surgeons on here?
16:56 < fenn> no
16:57 < fenn> or if there are, they're lurkers
16:57 < estill01> good news is I do believe with some focused effort it's possible to build a very high bandwidth bi-directional BCI, test/verify safety, and get it installe
16:58 < estill01> I have a good friend who's a surgeon who is generally supportive of my efforts
16:58 < estill01> Though would be great to find a plastic/cosmetic surgeon
16:58 < fenn> when i was in high school i had the same dream of connecting brains directly with cables made of neurons
16:58 < estill01> since they're trained for cranial surgery
16:58 < estill01> fenn: win
16:58 < estill01> It's super doable / and works
16:58 < fenn> i now think it's more powerful to interface with computers and be able to mediate the connection, for example over the internet
16:58 < estill01> also useful
16:59 < estill01> I developed a BCI system to proof-of-concept level
16:59 < estill01> for that same reason
16:59 < estill01>  / both are useful
16:59 < estill01> There's a bandwidth / data fidelity issue
17:00 < estill01> but then also convenience factors around mobility of wired vs wireless systems
17:00 < estill01> I have a friend who's a sr microelectronics engineer at Intel who's down to help push the BCI proj forward
17:00 < estill01>  / to production
17:01 < estill01> Though his estimate is it's a $10-15m project
17:01 < estill01> And then there's additional cost on the bio-safety validation, though that's relatively solvable
17:01 < estill01> fyi
17:02 < estill01> Which is actually great news
17:02 < estill01> just requires some focused doing
17:05 < fenn> bah i can't find the recently-linked paper about micro-TENN bio engineered electrodes
17:05 < fenn> anyway this is close enough: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5541680/figure/F4/
17:06 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/micro-TENN_bio_electrode_9mm_length_7_days_growth.jpg
17:07 < fenn> warning: large images
17:07 < estill01> That's awesome
17:08 < estill01> side note: background on how to get a BCI device approved by the FDA -- https://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/NeurologicalDevices/ucm528786.htm
17:09 < estill01> And what's particularly cool is that there are existing guidelines for safe operation of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation systems: https://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Guidances/ucm265269.htm
17:09 < estill01> Which if you follow means you're 'auto-approved' (more or less)
17:09 < estill01> though you still need to validate bio-safety
17:10 < estill01> But that can be done through their '510(k)' process where you point to analogous existing approved systems
17:10 < estill01> which means it's possible to design an invasive BCI system and not have to go through lengthy approval timelines
17:10 < fenn> don't get your hopes up
17:11 < estill01> it's quite possible to do
17:11 < fenn> i'm sure the FDA will do everything they can to get in the way
17:11 < estill01> Not true
17:11 < estill01> they're very supportive of neural prosthetics work
17:12 < estill01> their mandate is to ensure public safety and accuracy of any claimed medical benefits
17:12 < estill01> Other than that they get out of the way
17:12 < estill01> specifically asked representatives about their view on neural enhancement as well
17:12 < estill01> Which they said was not their concern
17:12 < estill01> as long as what you're doing satisfies basic bio-safety and medical accuracy requirements
17:13 < fenn> you got it in writing?
17:13 < estill01> Not sure
17:13 < estill01> might have some emails
17:13 < fenn> i think emails qualify as legally admissable evidence
17:14 < fenn> admissible*
17:14 < estill01> sure/fair, though that's not at issue
17:14 < estill01> I just don't agree that their outlook is default negative
17:14 < estill01> Having spoken to various people there
17:15 < fenn> are you working at an accredited institution? (university, hospital, etc) it might color their attitude
17:16 < fenn> the channel topic used to be "Banned by the FDA: 9 times" or something
17:16 < estill01> I think it has more to do with how you present yourself, work, and goals.
17:16 < estill01> i.e. if you approach the space with respect
17:17 < estill01> There is immense public benefit to neural prosthetics work and neural interfaces technology
17:17 < estill01> and the FDA recognizes that
17:18 < fenn> https://twitter.com/SGottliebFDA/status/1067861378063585280 "Certain uses of science should be judged intolerable, and cause scientists to be cast out. The use of CRISPR to edit human embryos or germ line cells should fall into that bucket. Anything less puts the science and the entire scientific enterprise at risk."
17:18 < fenn> not just getting in the way, saying scientists "must be cast out"
17:19 < fenn> anyway i'd rather not argue about politics
17:19 < estill01> sure
17:20 < estill01> That's also a very 'PR' statement. I doubt Gottlieb would be against the mitochondria editing going on in the UK
17:20 < estill01> that's very much editing of human embryos and has the same effect as germ line editing i.e. make heritable changes.
17:21 < estill01> But yeah; a large topic with nuance that can be hard to capture in a forum
17:23 < fenn> another promising brain interface technology was "openwater" a computer-generated holographic un-scattering optical element to do high resolution near-infrared blood oxygenation, and potentially even see individual neurons fire in real time due to their change of index of refraction
17:25 < fenn> the reason we can't see deep into the brain is light scattering off the boundaries between different substances. you can construct a hologram to exactly reverse each light path and create an image at an arbitrary depth
17:25 < fenn> it requires a lot of electronics and display development, and i'm worried because i haven't heard much about it lately
17:26 < fenn> the lcd technology must be very high resolution and fast
17:26 < estill01> you could also just capture the signal and compute on it vs trying to directly display it
17:28 < fenn> maybe. there are limits to 5D imaging. there's an inherent tradeoff between angular resolution and spatial resolution. if electronics were several orders of magnitude faster we could "just" record the phase of photons directly, as in radio astronomy, but we're not there yet
17:30 < fenn> there is probably some trick you can do with intensity interferometry where you phase lock to a modulated signal on the light, but that would reduce resolution accordingly
17:30 < fenn> i'll admit i don't really understand the un-scattering procedure in the first place
17:31 < estill01> Yeah; would also need to think/clarify thinking on this better
17:31 < fenn> how you're even supposed to come up with the parameters. it seems like it would be impossible without a known image to start with
17:32 < fenn> it's sort of a cryptanalysis problem
17:32 < estill01> There are tomographic approaches that use neural networks and such to reconstruct
17:32 < fenn> maybe brains are regular enough that you can go "ah, that's a blood vessel!" and climb the optimization gradient just based on statistical likelihood
17:33 < fenn> but this depends on the shape of the optimization space being smooth
17:35 < fenn> another thing nmz787 championed was high temporal resolution EEG, like in the GHz range, to directly detect neuron firing electric field changes and their spatial offsets
17:35 < fenn> apparently nobody has even done high rate EEG
17:36 < estill01> also interested in this / 'better EEG' projects
17:37 < estill01> Specifically active-electrode EEG systems
17:37 < estill01> Cool to see the shared interests in here ; gotta go / get more work done
17:38 < fenn> fun talking to you, later
17:38 < estill01> likewise
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23:31 < periffis> fenn: What the hell? At least now we don't have to depend upon shitty things like fMRI
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