--- Log opened Thu May 23 00:00:20 2019 04:16 -!- LooCfur [~hello@loocfur.powered.by.lunarbnc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16 -!- LooCfur [~hello@loocfur.powered.by.lunarbnc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:22 -!- purpleshift [purpleshif@gateway/vpn/mullvad/purpleshift] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:50 < kanzure> majhong is weird https://i.redd.it/k9q7e6xcmxb11.png 06:06 -!- adamsky [~adamsky3@178235181168.unknown.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:48 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/biohackinfo/status/1130900977626877955 06:48 < yoleaux> lol, thoughts on 'Right Wing Transhumanism'? "The Right must craft its own Transhuman: intellectually superior, more rational but always capable of aggression while physically and muscularly enhanced, rather than thin and androgynous." https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2019/05/for-rightwing-transhumanism.html?m=1 (@biohackinfo) 06:49 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/biohackinfo/status/1130029988961554434 06:49 < yoleaux> There's a biohacker in Belgium bragging about how he's been injecting people with animal DNA - without getting in trouble with regulators because he masks it under the cover of "art projects." The biohacker even makes DIY-bio kits for injecting DNA, called "Frankenstein Kits." https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D66sR6iXYAEN12_.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D66sSNLW4AAOTBN.jpg (@biohackinfo) 06:59 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.4] 07:01 < nsh> i don't think this kind of carry-on is helping the cause 07:02 < nsh> openly flouting regulation and giving off a devil-may-care attitude is just going to solidify the back-reaction against [independent] experimentation 07:02 < nsh> but that's just my 2c; don't hate me 07:04 < kanzure> don't worry i've always hated you 07:05 < kanzure> regulation is fine if it is appropriate and wisely structured. i have not seen any indication of this so far. 07:09 < kanzure> i've actually been struggling to identify a regulator that really structures things wisely 07:21 * nsh nods 07:22 < nsh> and yet roads are often safe to drive on and hospitals don't kill a vast majority of their patients and i can buy a bottle of whisky and be relatively confident it won't make me blind, and get some paracetamol that's probably not going to give me the shits 07:22 < nsh> regulation actually works pretty fucking amazingly compared to when there was none 07:23 < nsh> arguing to the contrary is generally a sign of madness, ignorance of ideological zealotry :) 07:23 < nsh> *or 07:23 < nsh> and that's even after making allowances for people that have the intellectual misfortune of being texan 07:24 < nsh> or more generally in places where extremist libertarianism holds undue sway 07:24 < nsh> the right amount of regulation is preferable to too much or too little, and while it's often imperfect, it can be made more perfect in better ways than removing it 07:25 < kanzure> i don't think hospitals would kill most of their patients if there were fewer regulations 07:25 < nsh> i don't think it's two axis graph kinda thing kanzure :) 07:25 < nsh> you create standards because of an amassed body of knowledge of what results in better survival and recovery prospects 07:26 < nsh> then you try to ensure those standards are more or less adhered to 07:26 < nsh> it's not better done by more or less regulations but by the quality of them as stated and as overseen and as implemented 07:26 < nsh> all of this is just common sense 07:27 < nsh> there are specifications for how to synthesise say a common [vital global medicine] field anaesthetic like ketamine and there are chemical assays to determine purity and when these are not followed people die more 07:27 < nsh> there's nothing in this observation that can be disputed 07:27 < nsh> it's futile to naysay 07:27 < kanzure> so much for falsifiability 07:28 < nsh> it's about where you invest your quibbles 07:28 < nsh> some places have a better return than others 07:28 < nsh> but i'd admit that you want the minimum regulatory burden that balances the evasion of the bad effects of laxity vs the overhead of servicing red tape 07:29 < nsh> and you have to be wary of people turning regulation into a rent-seeking end-in-itself 07:29 < nsh> and the general tendency for things to accrue rather than evolve toward elegance and efficiency 07:30 < nsh> and it's not always clear-cut. for some procedures or care i'd pick a more heavily/well-regulated hospital or healthcare facility than somewhere on a frontier 07:30 < nsh> but for something experimental that might be my last resort and hope (or my child's or loved-one's) then the calculus is going to change 07:30 < nsh> and i'll take my chances somewhere that they're more free to be daring 07:30 < nsh> (assuming i had the means to make that choice) 07:31 < nsh> *rather than 07:31 < nsh> so there's a benefit too in not having total uniformity, because too much conservatism inhibits progress 07:32 < nsh> anyway, what i think doesn't matter all that much :) 07:32 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-86-49-16-65.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:35 -!- sachy [~sachy@91.146.121.5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:45 < fenn> this is about as dumb as the guy who injected disemvoweled bible passages 07:46 < fenn> paracetamol has killed thousands of people and never should have been approved (500 killed per year) 07:46 < fenn> so yay regulation, i guess 08:04 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-86-49-16-65.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2606:6000:ca81:3100:9018:9211:5c11:660b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:42 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iwzwkdrvepoeioxk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1131554930509193218 09:08 < yoleaux> My glorious legion of twitter followers, why are you following me? Here's a quick poll. (@kanzure) 09:50 -!- ryancarey [c04c085e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.76.8.94] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 < ryancarey> hi 09:51 < ryancarey> I'm looking to recruit for FHI https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk where we research human enhancement among other things. 09:52 < ryancarey> Does anyone want to list their ~3-10 favourite researchers so I can add them to my list? 09:52 < kanzure> ryancarey: give me back anders sandberg 09:52 < kanzure> i'll trade you yoleaux for anders 09:52 < ryancarey> haha i don't think he's moving 09:52 < kanzure> i sort of view FHI as a waste of his time, he could be busy building things if he wanted to 09:53 < kanzure> are you looking for philosophers only? 09:54 < ryancarey> no, just researchers, mostly academic, any level of seniority. 09:54 < ryancarey> potentially any field of research of relevance to the long run future of humanity 09:54 < kanzure> you won't be able to pull him away from boyden's lab but maybe https://twitter.com/adammarblestone 09:55 < ryancarey> he's on my list of "would be great but impossible to get" 09:55 < ryancarey> actually at deepmind 09:56 < kanzure> nsh is in london and probably not busy 09:56 < ryancarey> I think if you want to literally build things then FHI is probably not going to be an efficient way to do it. It's probably a more plausible place to analyze what's going to get built, or to build specific tools. 09:56 < ryancarey> who is nsh? 09:56 < nsh> some idiot 09:56 < ryancarey> ha 09:56 < kanzure> nsh is an enigma wrapped in an inverted mobius strip 09:56 < nsh> what's happening in london? 09:57 < nsh> i'm not there currently but not far away (50mi) and there about once a fortnight 09:58 < ryancarey> ... 09:58 < ryancarey> haha 09:58 < kanzure> i'd consider carl shulman 09:58 < ryancarey> carl works for us! 09:59 < ryancarey> definitely a genius 10:00 < kanzure> https://vp.research.msu.edu/people/hsu-stephen 10:00 < ryancarey> Steve is also on my list of 'would be great but not gettable' 10:00 < ryancarey> actually I forgot him somehow even though I always read his work :/ 10:00 < ryancarey> but duly added 10:01 < archels_> what the heck is a "predoc" 10:01 < archels_> as opposed (?) to a postdoc 10:01 < ryancarey> this is my website? idk i don't have a phd 10:02 < archels_> nah, mailing list 10:02 < archels_> it sounds like a euphemism of sorts 10:03 < archels_> ryancarey: are you working together with CarbonCopies? 10:03 < kanzure> ryancarey: david dalrymple is fun 10:03 < ryancarey> David Dalrymple and Randal Koene are both on my list of "would be amazing but probably can't get" 10:03 < ryancarey> I'll ask them. 10:03 < kanzure> look i'm running out of amazing people okay 10:04 < ryancarey> haha 10:04 < ryancarey> It's useful to know how big the overlap is. 10:04 < ryancarey> gives good intel on the total number. 10:05 < kanzure> who do you have for the biohacking perspective 10:06 < ryancarey> We don't have anyone focused on biotech at the moment. Anders, Bostrom, Carl know the most about it. 10:07 < ryancarey> I can't tell whether CarbonCopies itself is still lively, or it's just Randal himself going around and doing things. 10:08 < ryancarey> hey I guess they updated their website and it does look realish: https://carboncopies.org/team/ 10:09 < archels_> yeah, they're planning to write an update of the Whole Brain Emulation Roadmap from 2008 10:11 < ryancarey> oh cool. Anders was saying the same, so hopefully they are working together. 10:11 < fenn> kanzure don't you have a huge list of internet anomaly people 10:12 < fenn> people like Xah Lee who just show up everywhere for no reason 10:12 < fenn> in your meetlog probably 10:15 < kanzure> yeah... uh. 10:16 < kanzure> ryancarey: eugen leitl is dying to do something interesting 10:18 < kanzure> ryancarey: you should have a biotech person. 10:19 < ryancarey> does leitl write online or something? Maybe if I could point to a bit more stuff he's done. 10:19 < ryancarey> It would make sense for someone to be surveying a bunch of biotech questions for us, yeah. 10:21 < ryancarey> I could look into that. 10:21 < kanzure> do you work with independent contractors 10:21 < kanzure> i think i could provide interesting biotech perspective: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612838/the-transhumanist-diy-designer-baby-funded-with-bitcoin/ 10:22 < kanzure> heck, there's already a FHI tie-in in that article. 10:23 < fenn> don't volunteer unless you actually want to work at FHI 10:25 < kanzure> as long as the pay is good, my belief is that even shitty people need good advice 10:25 < ryancarey> haha 10:25 < kanzure> maybe "shitty" is too strong here, but yeah i think they could all do better and make wonderful things if they put their minds to it 10:26 < kanzure> and worrying about x-risk instead of building asteroidal nukes is so profoundly dumb 10:26 < ryancarey> we only hire independent contractors fairly occasionally. It'd be interesting to comission a report on the state of biotech sometime. That could be something analogous to the WBE roadmap where we try to get a bunch of peopl ein a room. 10:26 < ryancarey> wait what 10:26 < ryancarey> haha 10:27 < kanzure> it's basically this delusion that you can sit there and write highly persuasive arguments that will convince other people to build asteroid nukes to blow up x-risk threats when you can't even convince yourself to do it 10:28 < kanzure> (or that your persuasive skills are sufficient or can make a sufficient impact) 10:28 < ryancarey> haha that's not wrong 10:28 < ryancarey> although there are different routes to impact than building 10:29 < ryancarey> you can advise companies or governments. 10:29 < kanzure> i' mskeptical, and would prefer to see some measurements of that impact in terms of tangible results 10:30 < kanzure> the allure of thinking you have a silver tongue is strong because you can argue that you can get 1000x leverage on your effort, but only if you're really good at it. 10:30 < ryancarey> I also agree with that 10:31 < ryancarey> If you actually do X rather than telling people to do X, you'll often attract collaborators, who are often great. 10:31 < ryancarey> I think we're not all that bad. The AI safety team builds stuff and analyzes real systems. Oxford is actually a good place to advise government. But yeah, we can measure more stuff. 10:32 < ryancarey> Do you have things that you'd want to be paid to look into? 10:33 < kanzure> producing a report on biotech (in particular synthetic biology, genetic engineering, biohacking and its intersection with FHI interests) would be interesting to me. 10:33 < kanzure> also the in vitro embryo selection stuff needs to be updated in light of the existence of genetic engineering 10:34 < ryancarey> agree with all that 10:35 < ryancarey> If we get together ~10 people to discuss for ~3 days, and then paid to write up subsequently... perhaps in 6-12mo, what would you think of that? 10:35 < ryancarey> for me it could be a useful project. 10:46 -!- ryancarey [c04c085e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.76.8.94] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:46 < fenn> doh 10:46 -!- RyanCarey [c04c085e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.76.8.94] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:46 < fenn> what happened to parahsailin? 11:00 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpfijvtdfqjltynh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:02 < fenn> RyanCarey: some friends i have a high opinion of who might be open for discussion about advanced biotech stuff: andrew hessel, anselm levskaya, dylan morris, joe meyerowitz, jascha sohl-dickstein 11:02 < fenn> although they may be busy having a life and stuff, you never know 11:08 < fenn> oh apparently he does business as joseph not joe 11:10 < RyanCarey> Useful, thanks! 11:22 < kanzure> fenn: parahsailin was absorbed into a mega-corp 11:22 < kanzure> RyanCarey: yeah that plan sounds okay to me 11:23 < RyanCarey> Great. @kanzure: I'll let you know I have a reason to fly you to here to tell us about biotech, or to meet with others. 11:23 < RyanCarey> Thanks everyone for the suggestions. If you think of more people you want to nominate to think about this stuff, then feel free to email me at ryan.carey@philosophy.ox.ac.uk 11:24 < RyanCarey> @kanzure, if you're in europe and want to say hi, then lmk also 11:25 < kanzure> RyanCarey: other reason is for my beautiful transcripts 11:26 < RyanCarey> beautiful transcripts? are you talking about rna? 11:26 < fenn> your conversation will be assimilated. resistance is futile 11:26 < kanzure> RyanCarey: no, i type word-for-word transcripts in real-time at many conferences and meetings http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/ 11:27 < RyanCarey> haha oh right 11:27 < RyanCarey> great! 11:41 -!- RyanCarey [c04c085e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.76.8.94] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:42 -!- periffis [~g@66.205.193.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:45 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@98.29.27.253] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:49 -!- TC [~talinck@98.29.27.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:11 -!- jtimon [~quassel@181.61.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:18 < kanzure> https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576 13:29 < kanzure> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333022400_Invisible_Designers_Brain_Evolution_Through_the_Lens_of_Parasite_Manipulation 13:56 < fenn> i guess this is the actual article: 13:56 < fenn> .title https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289617302787 13:56 < yoleaux> IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? - ScienceDirect 13:58 < fenn> James R.Flynn, MichaelShayer, Intelligence Volume 66, January–February 2018, Pages 112-121 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2017.11.010 14:03 < fenn> this paper needs more graphs 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:39 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/hillelogram/status/1119709868833820677 14:39 < yoleaux> After 24 hours awake, novice software devs lost half of their dev skills: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.02544.pdf Chronically getting less than 7 hours of sleep causes dramatic degradation on all mental tests: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/ People can't tell when SD degrades their ability (ibid). 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