--- Log opened Wed Sep 18 00:00:14 2019
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02:21 < kanzure> https://keys.openpgp.org/about/news#2019-09-12-three-months-later
02:23 < fenn> lots of people are using it. success!
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06:30 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpadsforsale/comments/c028n6/cnh_x210_crowdfunding_wpaypal_crpto/
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06:37 < kanzure> https://forum.51nb.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1895363&extra=page%3D1
06:38 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/user/xueyao
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06:44 < kanzure> huh, they used to have retractable numpads
06:48 < kanzure> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Ultrabay_Plus_Numeric_Keypad
06:58 < kanzure> "Some keyboards had a turbo button as well, located near right Shift. Unlike the turbo button that was common on computer cases, the turbo button on the keyboards did not control the clock rate of the CPU; rather, it controlled the keyboard repeat rate."
07:14 < jrayhawk> huh, didn't know about that one
07:16 < jrayhawk> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TrackWrite http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:W700ds similarly
07:22 < jrayhawk> some of the IdeaPad y-series laptops also had a removable video card bay for SLI
07:26 < jrayhawk> http://www.notebookreview.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/72293-752x424.jpg
07:28 < jrayhawk> https://www.techinferno.com/uploads/monthly_2016_04/IMG_1896.jpg.a081483cc78cac9410239758ba8af750.jpg some people made adaptors
07:29 < kanzure> "When the display is closed, a mechanical action splits the keyboard and shifts the location of the two pieces. When the display is opened the keyboard expands again to a full-size ThinkPad keyboard."
07:30 < kanzure> is this what a soulmate feels like?
07:30 < kanzure> why yes i do want my laptop to also be a transformer
07:30 < jrayhawk> i have no idea why they never revived that mechanism
07:31 < jrayhawk> probably the dominance of 16x9 made it unnecessary
07:31 < jrayhawk> but even before that
07:31 < kanzure> nsh: are you EmmyNoether and could you auto-submit all urls (or .title requests) to web.archive.org/save ?
07:32 < jrayhawk> http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4H.html the PE4H adaptor system is also worth mentioning, though it doesn't support the PCI-e ultrabay pinout
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07:39 < kanzure> why aren't there any climate geoengineering conferences
07:40 < jrayhawk> pretty sure allan savory has conferences
07:41 < jrayhawk> the primary concern of which is topsoil development via carbon-enrichment
07:44 < kanzure> no i want a conference for lex luthor applicants to submit their crazy geoengineering proposals like "let's make trees grow 2x faster" and "let's install a solar shade"
07:45 < jrayhawk> that 2x faster thing is actually a funny idea
07:46 < kanzure> it's something about PXY and CLE41
07:46 < jrayhawk> it'd ostensibly be possible; it'd involve identifying C3 and C4 photosynthesis genes and replacing one with the other
07:46 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/biohacktheplanet/2018/aggressively-growing-trees/
07:47 < jrayhawk> trees have a lot of other problems, though, because they poison the ground behind them, senesce, and have incredible longevity
07:48 < jrayhawk> i find it frankly disgusting that none of the climate change crowd are pro-burning-down-the-amazon
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07:48 < jrayhawk> it shows how dishonest and unserious they are
07:49 < fenn> it almost sounds like you're serious
07:49 < jrayhawk> yes, completely
07:49 < jrayhawk> trees are horrible at topsoil building
07:49 < fenn> the amazon is like 50% of land biodiversity
07:50 < jrayhawk> diversity is only a virtue insofar as it generates good outcomes
07:51 < fenn> surely you can find something better to complain about
07:51 < fenn> "i find it frankly disgusting that none of the climate change crowd are pro-" X
07:52 < kanzure> if the problem wit hthe amazon is topsoil then couldn't we just dump manure or something
07:52 < jrayhawk> i don't personally care about climate change all that much; we're still a factor of two off of triassic carbon concentration norms (that were probably additionally at higher total volume), so it's not like we're *actually* headed for runaway greenhouse effects incompatible with complex life
07:52 < kanzure> and also, regarding biodiversity loss, actually i think the more important problem is ecological collapse (for biodiversity itself you can just collect and store dna)
07:53 < jrayhawk> cows don't do atmospheric carbon conversion, they're just potentially very good at managing the things that do.
07:53 < kanzure> "bryan you can't solve all problems in life with more meat"
07:53 < fenn> "you can just collect and store dna" is the cryonics version of healthcare
07:54 < fenn> maybe, some day, in the far future, we'll be able to resurrect the purple spotted tree frog
07:54 < kanzure> except we can actually verify dna storage procedures
07:54 < kanzure> ultimately the only lifeforms that will survive to the end of time are those that are resurrectable
07:54 < fenn> you can't verify that you've gotten everything necessary to resurrect an ecosystem. not without actually doing it
07:54 < kanzure> like jesus (kidding)
07:55 < kanzure> yeah, fine, sure.
07:55 < kanzure> i'm more concerned about ecological collapse more than losing 10% of the 50 million beetle species absent other effects
07:57 < kanzure> jrayhawk: sounds like you want to optimize for topsoil quality?
07:57 < jrayhawk> that would be nice
07:57 < jrayhawk> my solution to climate change would be to subsidize soil quality
07:58 < fenn> what does topsoil even have to do with climate change? am i missing something? biological CO2 fixation is kinda dumb
07:58 < jrayhawk> which would also solve the healthcare crisis by making beef cheap instead of grains
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07:59 < jrayhawk> in what regard is it dumb
07:59 < jrayhawk> it seems to work and additionally aligns well with a bunch of other problems
07:59 < fenn> iirc even if you covered the sahara in crops the amount of CO2 fixed would be only slightly better than the extra warming caused by reduced albedo
07:59 < fenn> because plants are darker than sand
08:00 < jrayhawk> i was more thinking of the arable land
08:00 < jrayhawk> i don't really have good ideas for what to do about the sahara
08:00 < fenn> just build nuclear reactors and run carbonate plants, jeez
08:00 < jrayhawk> if the winds don't bring it water, it doesn't seem like there's much to be done
08:00 < jrayhawk> well, there's a lot of lower-hanging fruit, but okay
08:00 < jrayhawk> i guess that's a potential option
08:02 < fenn> CaOH (aq) + CO2 -> CaCO3 to get it out of the atmosphere, then calcine the CaCO3 to extract pure CO2
08:02 < fenn> then pump CO2 into fracking wells where it converts basaltic rock to carbonate rock
08:03 < fenn> or build extra power capacity and make polyethylene or diamond or whatever
08:04 < fenn> i guess i am more concerned about ocean acidification because global warming can be addressed by geoengineering
08:04 < fenn> reflecting light by various methods
08:05 < fenn> there's no easy fix for it though
08:05 < fenn> you just have to remove the excess CO2
08:06 < fenn> almost everything that lived in the triassic is extinct
08:07 < fenn> you can't simply say "it worked before so it'll work again" and expect everything to be fine
08:07 < jrayhawk> almost everything that lived is extinct
08:12 < kanzure> 08:04 <+cajg> drone parts from Aramco attack: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEwVSkoXkAAxCjh?format=jpg&name=medium
08:15 < jrayhawk> if anythng, modern biology has proven itself more fit to survive catastrophic extinction boundaries than triassic biology has, but, really, the more important thing is that the "tipping point" "runaway" "Venusian" talk is not particularly plausible
08:15 < jrayhawk> i am reasonably confident that other existential threats are advancing much faster
08:15 < fenn> i dunno what you're reading... usually people talk about single digit degrees celsius
08:16 < jrayhawk> yeah, that's the responsible people
08:16 < jrayhawk> some people, including policy makers, are more informed by the sensationalist media, though
08:18 < jrayhawk> and runaway naturalistic purity values
08:20 < kanzure> autonomous vehicle simulator thingy https://github.com/microsoft/AirSim
08:21 < jrayhawk> https://www.google.com/search?q=stocking+density+cycle+carbon+soil&as_qdr=y for anyone wanting to read up on topsoil research
08:23 < jrayhawk> which neatly aligns with energy sustainability and healthcare incentives (nutrient bioconcentration, nutrient bioavailability, oxidative safety, immunogenic safety, etc.)
08:30 < jrayhawk> kanzure: https://c4rice.com/ bill gates is accidently ahead of you
08:32 < jrayhawk> https://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2631.JPG oh yeah, forgot to mention that PE4H expanders feature prominently in this picture
08:32 < jrayhawk> which can be thought of as more ThinkPad versatility porn
08:34 < kanzure> https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2019/09/18/
08:35 < fenn> the thinkpad is running that ATI graphics card?
08:35 < jrayhawk> Yeah, and another one behind it.
08:36 < jrayhawk> or, on top rather
08:36 < jrayhawk> technically the one on top is the simpler 1x L adaptor
08:37 < kanzure> and a poem https://github.com/bitcoinops/bitcoinops.github.io/pull/226#issuecomment-532734492
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08:52 < jrayhawk> when i say "dishonest" and "unserious" about an issue, i mean "are more interested in using said issue as a bludgeon against their outgroup than actually thinking about tradeoffs", which is the same reason a lex luthor climate geoengineering conference is not likely to happen; the set of people who *really care* about climate change (egalitarian, natural purity) have an outgroup relationship with
08:52 < jrayhawk> ruthless goal-pursuers (meritocratic, consequentialist, non-empathic)
08:53 < jrayhawk> we have a similar thing going on with the agricultural research, which is why the savory institute conferences are not about to get any press as a "climate change" conference anytime soon, despite the carbon sequestration being the primary instrument of interest
09:03 < jrayhawk> animal agriculture being economic-hierarchical and species-hierarchical immediately violates egalitarian and natural purity values
09:05 < jrayhawk> one funny place the crossover might happen is the military-industrial complex, which openly considers food safety to be a key security threat and thus could actually throw money at geoengineers
09:06 < jrayhawk> er, food security
09:06 < kanzure> i'm just here for the terraforming fan fiction
09:07 < jrayhawk> if you want to put elon musk's "nuke mars" campaign to shame, the military is a decent place to look for money
09:10 < jrayhawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire_in_ecosystems the most successful terraforming project in human history might cheer you up in the meantime, though
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10:11 < maaku> jrayhawk: industrial and agricultural revolution are the most successful terraforming projects. increased the size of the biome manyfold :)
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10:24 < jrayhawk> I wouldn't call chewing through the topsoil built from the former and inducing mass medical bankruptcy successful, per se.
10:24 < jrayhawk> Though that's not entirely its fault.
10:25 < maaku> jrayhawk: the limiting size of the biome is nitrogen availability, with nitrogen fixation only bleing performed at a fixed rate by a small number of creatures
10:26 < maaku> the Haber process changed that
10:27 < maaku> you can actually see WW2, Korea, and the Vietnam wars in climate data because of the amount of TNT (fertilizer) released, all of which was artificially produced
10:27 < maaku> there's a great book on this called the Alchemy of Air
10:28 < maaku> also, current news in the Amazon notwithstanding, the world has actually grown its forrested regions by 25% in recent decades, as CO2 both raises temperatures in northern regions and increases plant yields.
10:30 < maaku> Zubrin's Merchants of Despair talks a bit about this. It's interesting to read Zubrin's take on global warming, since a terraformer necessarily thinks about global climate change in a different light.
10:32 < maaku> Sadly I think environmentalists are taking the wrong track. Instead of trying to halt global warming (can't be done), or scaring people with doom and gloom predictions (not based in fact),
10:32 < maaku> they should be working to make sure we preserve ecosystem diversity, and facilitate in moving ecosystems with wildlife thoroughfares and such as local climates change
10:33 < kanzure> ecosystem diversity, or ecological health
10:34 < kanzure> i really don't think most people mean biodiversity when they say it...
10:35 < maaku> kanzure: I think there's two things at play here. An ecosystem can appear healthy (lots of healthy animals and plants), and yet lose resiliance to change because of species die-off. Diversity helps the latter.
10:35 < jrayhawk> think of all the diversity of cyclin-dependent kinase viruses we could be preserving in the ecosystems of our bodies
10:35 < jrayhawk> and botflies. so many botflies.
10:36 < superkuh> Project vesta combined with forest replanting and ocean iron fertilization seem like good ideas.
10:36 < superkuh> That later mostly for increased food production rather than it's temporary small help towards CO2 sequestration.
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10:38 < maaku> superkuh: if you use it for food production, you're not doing CO2 sequestration
10:39 < maaku> but again as I alude above.. I'm not sure we're in an optimal climate to begin with. we're way, way below historical averages in geologic terms, and large swaths of the Earth (siberia, antarctica, the middle of australia) are uninhabitable as a result.
10:41 < fenn> antarctica, really?
10:41 < fenn> just give the earth a little nudge, increase axial tilt to 45 degrees
10:41 < fenn> "everything will be fine"
10:41 < jrayhawk> now you're talking kanzure's language
10:42 < jrayhawk> sahara, potentially, as well
10:43 < maaku> fenn: antarctica was once a rainforest
10:45 < fenn> and iowa was once a seabed. so what
10:46 < maaku> the whole Earth used to be a swampy jungle planet from equater to pole. awesome for life
10:46 < maaku> the development of grasses caused massive deforestation / savannization as grass out-competed fire-affected rain forest, which sent the Earth's climate into a cooling period we're in the middle of. galciation is not the norm.
10:47 < maaku> personally I think it would be great to get back to that. (if we can just learn from the dutch to protect our cities from rising water along the way)
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10:53 < fenn> krill feeding on algae growing under sea ice is the main source of DHA in the ocean food stream. destroying that and making humans forever dependent on technological food supply seems like a bad backup strategy
10:53 < fenn> (especially since we haven't even gotten to the point where we have a technological food supply chain)
10:54 < fenn> if you want to jump straight to computronium then why even bother with ecosystems
10:54 < TheHoliestRoger> jrayhawk: which side are you on with elon's nuke mars plan then?
10:55 < fenn> there are sides?
10:56 < fenn> nuking mars is planetary protection compliant (tm)
10:56 < fenn> they don't just hand out nukes at the gift shop though
10:56 < jrayhawk> I don't expect to be relevant to any decision making process by the time a terraformed Mars would be relevant to me.
10:56 < TheHoliestRoger> I was just curious what your feelings were
10:57 < jrayhawk> I think using Mars as a testbed for crazy geoengineering experiments is a lot better than using Earth, at the very least.
11:02 < jrayhawk> I am not convinced nuking mars is particularly useful other than finding out how fast atmospheric dissipation in the absence of a magnetosphere really is.
11:03  * fenn wonders how many times we've been over this
11:03 < fenn> mars loses its atmosphere through jeans escape
11:03 < fenn> magnetosphere or not will make no difference
11:03 < jrayhawk> oh
11:03 < jrayhawk> thanks for letting me know
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11:05 < fenn> for hydrogen anyway
11:05 < jrayhawk> well, i assume it applies to whatever the lightest layer happens to be in the system
11:06 < fenn> right
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11:07 < fenn> since temperature is a distribution of energies, some atoms will be higher than escape velocity
11:09 < jrayhawk> so the magnetosphere is only relevant if the topmost layer is ionized, at which point that layer can be maintained and dampen the ones below?
11:09 < jrayhawk> well, and relevant for small amounts of solar wind
11:10 < fenn> the magnetosphere would be relevant for directing charged solar wind particles around (and away) from the atmosphere
11:10 < fenn> once an atom is in a high enough orbit, it will scatter off solar wind particles and gain momentum
11:11 < fenn> a magnetic field reduces the rate of this happening
11:11 < TheHoliestRoger> Thanks jrayhawk.
11:17 < fenn> "mars is red because water broke down into oxygy and hydrogen, the hydrogen drifted away, and the surplus oxygen oxidized the rocks"
11:18 < fenn> oxygen*
11:19 < fenn> yeah i dunno if that last statement was accurate
11:21 < jrayhawk> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yuk_Yung/publication/15467566_Loss_of_Atmosphere_from_Mars_Due_to_Solar_Wind-induced_Sputtering/links/574cab2808ae061b3301e0ea.pdf hmm, a lot of variance in models of what's happened and why
11:23  * fenn pokes mrdata 
11:27 < maaku> TheHoliestRoger: nuking mars wouldn't do shit as far as terraforming goes. it's just elon being elon.
11:27 < TheHoliestRoger> Glad to hear some sense maaku :) thank you
11:29 < maaku> love what elon is doing for throwing tonnage to LEO. he appears to have shit for brains when it comes to martian settlement and terraforming though
11:29 < maaku> or more charitably he's distracted by near-term problems and hasn't properly looked at it yet
11:30 < maaku> i do enjoy seeing the anti-human "planetary protection" fascists getting their feathers in a bunch though.
11:31 < fenn> how else are we going to implement re-tardigration policies
11:31 < fenn> re-tardigradation? hrmm
11:35 < fenn> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/planetary-protection-rules-hamper-space-exploration/
11:38 < fenn> oh i guess he removed that little joke
11:41 < TheHoliestRoger> maaku: i don't have an issue with going to mars, but I do have a personal issue with nuking it
11:42 < TheHoliestRoger> i wouldn't classify myself as planetary protection
11:43 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKQOk5UlQSc
11:43 < EmmyNoether> Sherlock Holmes Sucks at Deduction - YouTube
11:46 < TheHoliestRoger> is that a dig at me kanzure ? :)
11:48 < kanzure> no just wrong channel
11:48 < kanzure> happens when my head experiences global warming
11:52 < TheHoliestRoger> i see
12:05 < maaku> TheHoliestRoger: I was referring to something quite specific : https://planetaryprotection.nasa.gov/about
12:06 < maaku> see also, fenn's link
12:07 < TheHoliestRoger> Yeah I did read fenn's link actually, enjoyed that :)
12:07 < maaku> zubrin has written qutie extensively. you might also like his "The Case for Space" (or the earlier "The Case for Mars")
12:08 < TheHoliestRoger> and yeah planetary protection sounds like something autistics at nasa came up with
12:10 < TheHoliestRoger> Nothing against autistics of course, they just aren't fans of human contact
12:31 < jrayhawk> uh, i don't think that's the appropriate axis for correlating with, there
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23:49 < mrdata> fenn, magnets are not enough to stop jens escape, which is the main mechanism for martian atmospheric loss
23:50 < mrdata> *jeans escape
23:51 < mrdata> domed habitats are possible
23:52 < mrdata> but you need well shielded areas to retreat to
23:52 < mrdata> from radiation
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23:56 < fenn> mrdata: i was wondering if you had anything to say on the relative rates of atmosphere loss in an artificial magnetic field scenario vs no magnetic field
--- Log closed Thu Sep 19 00:00:15 2019