--- Log opened Fri Dec 13 00:00:34 2019 --- Day changed Fri Dec 13 2019 00:00 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:37 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::3] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:41 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:43 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:43 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:59 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-23-46.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:33 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:39 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@unaffiliated/ebowden] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:24 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:44 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:55 -!- FourFire [~FourFire@125.51-175-114.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:07 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:24 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:28 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@oasys.ch0wn.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:39 -!- adamsky [~adamsky3@178235181168.unknown.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:02 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:13 -!- jomammypants [permafleek@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/permafleek] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:26 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:00 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:02 -!- urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:04 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07 -!- urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:57 -!- adamsky [~adamsky3@178235181168.unknown.vectranet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:35 -!- brabo [~verger@globalshellz/owner/brabo] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:42 < brabo> good day to all! i am looking for information on some diy lab testing, like wether it can be doable to hack together a gc/ms setup ones self. specifically i'd like to be able to identify ingredients of ecig liquids. gc/ms so far seems a good way to do so. i was made to understand that this question is not really on-topic here, but that some people in this community do toy with diy lab things and may h 07:42 < brabo> ave some knowledge. thanks! 07:44 < kanzure> lab equipment is on topic 07:44 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:8942:4b7a:1c02:12be] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:44 < brabo> ooh, even better :) 07:49 -!- CRM114 [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:52 -!- urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:15 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:15 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:15 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:44 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46 < kanzure> asyncio/trio alternative to python-requests https://github.com/encode/httpx 09:00 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:04 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:36 < lsneff> Wonder if light-field projections would work from further away than AR glasses 09:37 < lsneff> Would allow for glasses-less holograms if a projector could project into a moving retina from across a room 09:52 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 -!- sknebel [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:53 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:01 -!- sektor [~sektor@95.87.234.241] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:22 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:23 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:28 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:32 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:50 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:52 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:57 < kanzure> "A single combination gene therapy treats multiple age-related diseases" https://www.pnas.org/content/116/47/23505 11:57 < kanzure> wow you can do two things at once? who knew 12:07 < brabo> is that about that usa company offering the 1 million $ age treatment in colombia? 12:09 < brabo> hm no, but maybe this is what they offer, or part of it.. 13:24 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:28 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-175-208.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: nuff] 13:54 < kanzure> "A genomic predictor of lifespan in vertebrates" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-54447-w 13:54 < kanzure> brabo: that's probably bioviva 13:59 < kanzure> https://vorpus.org/blog/why-im-not-collaborating-with-kenneth-reitz/ 14:01 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:8942:4b7a:1c02:12be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05 -!- superkuh_ [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 < brabo> kanzure: hm idk, i think it was on /. some days ago, don't find it back fast 15:39 -!- LeoTal [~Adium@173.170.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41 -!- sektor [~sektor@95.87.234.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:46 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@2600:1012:b150:f26f:2895:5846:606c:72bf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:48 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@2600:1012:b150:f26f:2895:5846:606c:72bf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04 < nmz787> brabo: yeah you can DIY a GC/MS... although as someone who's been interested in that sort of thing pretty intensely for at least a decade, and loosely for about 17 years... it isn't the easiest/most straightforward/obvious 16:06 < nmz787> brabo: it's probably less overall investment to just work a bunch on whatever job you already have, and not spend too much on thinking of how to DIY it, all the while scanning craigslist/ebay/govdeals for a reasonable complete system (i.e. it has the main unit, vacuum pumps, PC/computer and software) 16:06 < nmz787> say $700 to $2400 16:08 < nmz787> if you are still short on money, then you can approach the lower side of the cost estimate by piecing together multiple systems, but you'll likely spend a few hundred $ more in parts to connect the various items along with waste on items that failed to work for connecting the pieces 16:08 < nmz787> additionally, you'll need a few consumables like a GC column, which can be 10s of dollars to 100s of dollars on ebay, for example 16:09 < nmz787> and also probably need some reasonably pure standards to compare things against, adjust concentrations/measurements against 16:14 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-23-46.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17 < brabo> "work a bunch on whatever job you already have" - none for about a decade :p 16:17 < brabo> ;) 16:18 < brabo> but what i personally want it for, such investement is more than realistic 16:19 < brabo> i'm considering getting into the vape liquid business, and with the profit margins there, that's not an issue. i was however hoping to be able to hack together something to ensure resulting vape contents before having customers ;) 16:20 < brabo> and to slowly build up some customer base off grid, but to be sure i am not poisoning anyone 16:20 < brabo> that i really wouldn't be able to live with 16:21 < brabo> so it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation: to build up and have the money to invest, first i need to sell to some people 16:22 < brabo> and i cannot do that in good faith without knowing 16:22 < brabo> before you know it you have another vit e acetate crisis 16:48 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-96-231-179-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:57 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:35 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:6156:7e7a:52d3:9523] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:22 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e35:8ab1:dea0:6156:7e7a:52d3:9523] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kxljjmobqdshhymm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:38 < maaku> what are the odds of 1.4nm in 2029? <--- from Global Foundaries or TSMC? Pretty good. Intel? not so much. 22:40 < maaku> brabo: be warned this channel is public and logged 22:42 < brabo> maaku: i am aware. did i somewhere say something questionable? 22:45 < maaku> brabo: You are talking about diy garage manufacturing and selling a highly regulated, potentially bio-active consumable substance. I don't know what jurisdiction you are in, but be sure to look up or seek advice on your local laws and regulations. 22:46 < maaku> All the technical aspects of what you're doing are on topic, we love diy lab stuff. But just make sure for your own sake you're not doing anything illegal. 22:46 < brabo> i am aware of my local laws, and i am not living anywhere where there are problems or problematic regulations regarding this particular subject 22:46 < maaku> Also, I am not a lawyer, etc. 22:47 < brabo> one can confirm to regulations fairly easily 22:49 < brabo> and even the off grid customer base doesn't add much woes, just need to do that as a "part-time" freelance thing, and then i still don't even have taxes to worry about the first 12.5k/year 22:49 < brabo> in other words: i have to adhere to a minimum regulation for making it and labelling it, and declare the revenue as, i got that in. 22:52 < brabo> one thing that is upcoming in regulations is openness about ingredients you know are in the product. but that alone doesn't make me feel 100% comfortable in the sense that it is something people will vape, and that poses some risks if unknown elements happen to be in the liquid. hence i'd only feel comfortable if i can verify what is in the resulting vapor (even if regulation does not oblige me to) 22:52 < brabo> i'd use ingredients from secondary sources, and even if regulation says they have to be open, i'd rather be sure. 22:53 < brabo> so there's no need to worry, there's no element of subverting laws or regulations ;) but thanks for the warning and concern ;) 22:53 < brabo> i do appreciate it ;) 22:55 < brabo> i am more honestly worried about unexpected unknown ingredients from upstream that i'd rather not risk exposing anyone to 22:58 < brabo> if the next genius comes with a vit e acetate idea, i want to see the changes before anyone ends up vaping it 23:00 < brabo> and not talking about producing thc vape oils, this can happen in a lot of supply chains if people are not fully responsible for what they produce and sell on 23:07 < brabo> also, there probably is at least one flavour vendor that is from usa, where they for their product not even have the obligation to be fully open about their ingredients.. 23:13 < justanotheruser> maaku: agreed that the odds are higher for asian foundries 23:13 < nmz787> brabo: this came out liek a week ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKhUizkXxA 23:13 < nmz787> .title 23:13 < EmmyNoether> DIY mass spectrometer measures potassium in dietary salt substitute - YouTube 23:14 < nmz787> justanotheruser: at pre-competitive level though, which is about a decade out sort of thing, Intel and TSMC are both paying for the academic research to prove the way 23:14 < nmz787> they are industry partners 23:14 < nmz787> in some sense 23:14 < nmz787> s/prove/pave/ 23:14 < brabo> nmz787: thanks! i will have a look! though, diy gc/ms that can detect some elements i know, won't help me catch unknowns 23:15 < nmz787> i.e. https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/tsmc-joins-semiconductor-research-corp 23:16 < nmz787> brabo: well aside from the parts costs and recuperating engineering costs of years past, most of the money in a gc/ms pays for the database rights for peak identification 23:16 < nmz787> otherwise you need a lot of standards 23:16 < brabo> nmz787: i think your previous suggestion of just finding a way to fund a working one may be the safest option, and i do really want this to be safe, and sure, that i know what people would end up inhaling 23:16 < nmz787> however, if you have those standards, you can certainly notice when your inputs change 23:17 < nmz787> though it might take some doing to determine what that change is a result of 23:17 < brabo> i'd say any change in an ingredient i obtain from upstream would for me be reason enough to stop using that until i know why 23:18 < nmz787> brabo: I don't think safety is really the issue at the DIY level... it's really just whether it's efficienct/possible in the timespan you want to accomplish something in 23:18 < brabo> i honestly do not want anyone getting any ecig liquid from me that has any doubts on what they inhale 23:18 < nmz787> and how far deep into the rabbit hole of engineering you want to go 23:18 < brabo> the recent vit e acetate story in usa showed me this is something i really want to be very careful about 23:18 < nmz787> wasn't that in unregulated THC vapes though? 23:19 < brabo> sure 23:19 < brabo> but honey cut was a legal product 23:19 < nmz787> ok, so it's basically some guy in the back alley, what do you expect? 23:19 < brabo> not entirely 23:19 < brabo> they sold all over, in shops, everything, honey cut was not a back alley op 23:19 < nmz787> honey is a bit different than vitamin E, which doesn't really exist without a lot of human intervention (i.e. the age of fire and steam at least) 23:19 < brabo> it was a startup that went big fast 23:20 < brabo> nmz787: honey cut 23:20 < nmz787> is that using actual honey? 23:20 < nmz787> or some brand name? 23:20 < brabo> it's the brand name of the vit e acetate product no back alley thc liquid producer even knew it had vit e acetate in it 23:20 < brabo> the patent application only mentioned pg and vg 23:20 < brabo> so.. 23:21 < nmz787> even if it was real honey... when's the last time you huffed/smoked/vaporized honey, there's no evolutionary precedent 23:21 < brabo> i'd rather know what is in the resulting vape before i expose anyone to it 23:21 < nmz787> idk what pg and vg are 23:21 < brabo> propylene glycerine/vegetal glycerine 23:21 < nmz787> even vaping those seems pretty stupid 23:21 < brabo> the two base ingredients of vape liquid 23:22 < nmz787> can't you make freebase nicotine or something? 23:22 < nmz787> that's going to be way cleaner 23:23 < brabo> sure. vaping anything is stupid, i agree there. thing is, ecigs are the most efficient nic replacement therapy known to date, and in about 15 years, 0 illnesses and 0 deaths, so myself, as a recovering smoker, i take the bet on long term 23:23 < nmz787> unless you're after some sort of flavor and "lung feel" (or mouth feel) 23:23 < brabo> freebase? like with nic salts? or? 23:23 < brabo> the lung feel (throat hit) is a big part of why ecigs are so good as nrt 23:23 < nmz787> like cocaine to crack 23:24 < nmz787> it vaporizes on it's own with heat application 23:24 < brabo> the cloud you exhale is psychologically another important element 23:24 < brabo> missions success! 23:24 < brabo> sounds like nic salts then 23:25 < brabo> it's not done much in europe, i know in usa it's a big thing 23:25 < nmz787> looks like freebase is actually the removal of the halogen "i.e. salt" groups 23:26 < brabo> you go from an alkaloid to a base (according to your crack analogy, afaik) 23:26 < nmz787> which makes it lighter, and less able to perform ionic bonds 23:26 < nmz787> so more volatile 23:27 < brabo> i could not tell, i seriously lack the chemistry to say :) 23:30 < brabo> what i know is that if i'd produce vape liquid, i have one major worry: the flavours one uses for that, are not sold as vape flavours at all. but as food flavours, and thus fall under that regulation, which likely will mean that even for inside eu flavour producers, i wont have all the ingredients, and even if they share gc/ms results, i'd rather verify before i risk exposin anyone to anything unknown 23:31 < brabo> ethically, i cannot sell anything to anyone without verifying myself there are no unknowns in the equation 23:31 < nmz787> yeah but that only begs the question, what is "safe" vaping? 23:31 < nmz787> literally I can only think of freebase nicotine as being the "limit" (in math terms) of that question, in regards to tobacco consumption 23:31 < nmz787> nothing about it has historic precedence to say what might or would be or is safe 23:32 < brabo> safe vaping does not exist, same as there is no safe smoking. i wouldn't recommend anyone to vape if they are not smokers trying to quit it. that being said, i'd rather verify there are no unknowns in the equation.. 23:32 < nmz787> smoking it at this point, might be safer 23:32 < brabo> if i can verify some flavour has only ingredients vapers have been vaping for over a decade without any illnesses/deaths, then that'd be as safe as one could make it 23:33 < brabo> nmz787: well, combusting stuff brings a whole lot of other problems 23:36 < brabo> in the end, i just want to ensure myself that a consumer does not end up vaping unknown things vapers have not been vaping for years without issues. i could not live with myself if i happen to be a part somewhere in the chain of the next vit e acetate crisis 23:37 < brabo> as in: if tomorrow some food flavour producer adds an ingredient one most definately should not vape ever, i want to spot that before anyone gets ill or even worse as a consequence of what would be my irresponsibility in double checking things 23:39 < brabo> and worst case scenario, first batch i make and sell to a handful of customers, if i do not go to every length ensuring to know, this is too much risk 23:40 < brabo> and idc about liability claims, i just couldn't live with myself if that'd happen ;) 23:41 < brabo> but i suspect your suggestion of sourcing the money to just buy a decent enough gc/ms may be the way to go 23:42 < brabo> i also wasnt aware that for the prices you mentioned one could already obtain such devices 23:42 < brabo> that's really good to know, so i thank you for that! :) 23:47 < nmz787> seems like you could specialize in just testing vape stuff randomly, act as a consumer safety testing company for anyone 23:47 < nmz787> yeah I found a gc/ms on craigslist like a week ago for like $5 or $6k with everything but the vacuum pumps 23:47 < brabo> that could be a side revenue for sure. i mean. 5% of the belgian vape market, if i'd reach that, is about 2 half days work a week in producing/bottling/packaging 23:48 < nmz787> not sure if that was a $300 single pump, or that plus another higher vac range pump 23:48 < brabo> and a gc/ms device like that, would you yourself trust that with your life? 23:49 < nmz787> sure, you'd want to have a few standards to compare and calibrate against, as the GC column is a consumable 23:50 < nmz787> the ionizer too is probably something that is a consumable, but I think with a longer life than the columns 23:50 < brabo> well, it's quite an investement for sure. but. considering the profit margins, if i sell 12L i have that returned 23:51 < nmz787> probably cheaper to hire the testing out in the beginning 23:51 < brabo> 12L/day btw is 5% of the local market 23:51 < brabo> :p 23:51 < nmz787> I'd guess a sample would only be $40-$200, but that's just a guess 23:51 < brabo> yeah, it may be, i have to weigh my options.. 23:52 < brabo> heh. 200$ is 50% of the cost of the ingredients of 12L of which the profits buys a 5-6k one :D 23:52 < brabo> but for the start, that is for sure a very viable option 23:53 < brabo> do couple times, get one myself, and as you said, can add the device as extra revenue 23:53 < brabo> nice. these are some very good imputs :) 23:56 < brabo> *inputs even 23:57 < nmz787> I still like the tobacco crack idea 23:58 < nmz787> make a hybrid vape that adds in the vapor mist with an ultrasonicator 23:58 < nmz787> totally separate from the nicotine fix 23:58 < nmz787> etc 23:58 < brabo> but that's nic salts then or? 23:58 < nmz787> no 23:58 < brabo> hmmm 23:58 < nmz787> nicotine salt is just a water type extract and purification of plant materia 23:58 < brabo> a new experimental way of vaping.. i guess i'd rather not risk that ;) 23:59 < nmz787> you basify it to remove the salt, then extract the nictoine in non-polar solvent 23:59 < nmz787> (i.e. co2 or something "green") 23:59 < nmz787> well it's literally what is being produced anyway, just with combustion side effects, in smoking and normal vaping --- Log closed Sat Dec 14 00:00:07 2019