--- Log opened Mon Dec 16 00:00:38 2019
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01:27 < adlai> brabo: if you are actually trying to sell to customers, rather than produce an intermediate that goes to vendors, then i strongly recommend to avoid selling a product that requires technological expertise to consume
01:28 < adlai> ecigs are already widespread in the market, so the liquids they vaporize aren't exactly complicated
01:29 < adlai> but from what i can tell, it's pretty much impossible to sell freebase-anything, nicotine included; i'm quite certain it would rapidly destroy the consumer's apparatus.
01:30 < adlai> one of the advantages of inhaling burned plant matter, using no equipment more complex than paper (and maybe a bit of card, for a coarse filter) is that the waste products are trivially disposable
01:31 < adlai> well-worn crack pipes are not a pretty site, nor do they a friendly landfill make.
01:32 < adlai> s/ite/ight/
01:33 < adlai> kanzure: 'engineers' is an awfully unspecific concept
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01:36 < adlai> in the interest of reducing duplicate efforts: one of my recent concerns has been specifying the requirements for an alphabet of ideoplasts [as encountered in Zindell's Requiem for Homo Sapiens]
01:39 < adlai> all alphabets [that word including numerals, and extralphanumeric mathematical symbols] encountered so far fail two of the criterea that seem most crucial: hamming distance, within the space of small deformations; and distinguishability despite symmetry operations
01:41 < adlai> the nakamotic tactic of avoiding easily confused characters (as in the base58 subset of latin alphanumerics) is a possible approach.
01:42 < adlai> however, my requirement of avoiding collisions caused by symmetry operations narrows the space significantly
01:42  * adlai leaves these thoughts here, and proceeds with "care and feeding of the earthbound idiot"
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02:42 < fenn> nicotine salts are regularly used, and have been for many years now. they're the active ingredient in juul pods and you can buy generic nicotine salts solution in glycerine or propylene glycol
02:42 < fenn> it works exactly the same as other nicotine e-cig solution but it is more potent and less harsh
02:44 < fenn> most (all?) kanji avoid symmetry
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05:53 < TMA> fenn: mountain ?, tree ?, field ?
06:05 < faceface> hello
06:05 < faceface> Hi kanzure
06:06 < faceface> Do you have any links to research on solving cybil attacks using bitcoin?
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06:43 < fenn> if you look carefully, they are not identical to their mirror images. also, there is no symbol equivalent to their mirror image
06:43 < fenn> i was thinking of rotations mostly
06:44 < fenn> anyway i am not that interested in this line of thought
06:50 < brabo> adlai: heh. i was only interested in verifying contents of normal ecig eliquids, the freebase idea was not mine ;)
06:55 < brabo> and the liquids are indeed not very complicated. there's not so much knowhow needed indeed. some pg/vg, some nic, some flavour and it's done. what worries me is upsteam in supply chain unknown ingredients sneaking in ;)
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15:28 < nmz787> fenn: actually it looks like the freebase form might be the default, I can't tell and didn't read into it enough because, not really that interested. Seems like the salts would be more water soluble, and thus better for things like spraying crops as a pesticide
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15:36  * brabo looks as his gc/ms question creates a side line of thought :)
15:37 < brabo> it's interesting, but i do lack the knowledge to really understand :)
15:38 < brabo> i've been talking to more vapers about my fears regarding supply chain unknowns and they do agree there is a risk there
15:39 < brabo> nmz787: did you checkout the honey cut investigative story i linked?
15:44 < brabo> what someone did tell me is that they tried nic salts. vape liquids of 12mg/ml, vaped nic salts of 50mg/ml, said some stuff about different absorption rates and that nic salts give a sortof rush like first cig in the morning. not sure the levels they talked about are really comparable though
15:44 < brabo> if you'd like to discuss more with them, i can invite them here. not sure how interested you are in this ;)
15:46 < brabo> they are interested in a cheap hacky way to be able to determine nic concentration in eliquids. which may be a lot more feasible to do than what i want, which is to be able to detect elements one does not specifically expect. and only one element.
15:46 < brabo> (in their case)
16:25 < kanzure> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-church-the-complicated-ethics-of-genetic-engineering-60-minutes-2019-12-08/
16:26 < kanzure> this is rather unreasonable ""We're not necessarily opposed to enhancement if everybody gets access to it simultaneously," "
16:26 < kanzure> what are you going to do, force everyone to get it? what an idiot
16:36 < superkuh_> Seems pretty clear access in this is code for, "What if only rich people can pay for it?" But really this already applies to almost all medical technologies.
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16:45 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1206737016576258050
16:45 < EmmyNoether> Church: "We're not necessarily opposed to enhancement if everybody gets access to it simultaneously" // Uh, big no. That's... not how freedom and capitalism works. Literally nothing has ever been universally deployed like that. // https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-church-the-complicated-ethics-of-genetic-engineering-60-minutes-2019-12-08/ (@kanzure)
16:49 < kanzure> most technologies are expensive in the beginning. doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. it's class warfare in disguise (inequality exists and therefore everyone should be fucking miserable)
16:56 < nmz787> adlai: e-cig vapes are basically already mass-distributed crack pipes, at least for liquids
16:57 < nmz787> brabo: no I didn't get to that, I've heard the news reports on vitamin E reacting and making cyanide or something
16:58 < kanzure> .title http://arep.med.harvard.edu/gmc/gen_faq.html
16:58 < EmmyNoether> Recessive Screening
17:03 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kiranmusunuru/status/1201501377043808257
17:03 < EmmyNoether> 10/ // It turns out that many groups have edited CCR5 with CRISPR at various amino acid positions--38, 93, 105, 153, 184, 209, 334--and found cells to be protected against HIV. // There doesn't seem to be anything special about del32. // JK cited a few of these papers in his Summit talk. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKyXIihW4AERmZk.jpg (@kiranmusunuru, in reply to tw:1201501370748157957)
17:04 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/biohackinfo/status/1202277149002141697
17:04 < EmmyNoether> -CRISPR Thread- / Since no one is challenging claims on @TechReview by @KiranMusunuru, @AntonioRegalado, etc, // [Claims: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614764/chinas-crispr-babies-read-exclusive-excerpts-he-jiankui-paper/ // https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614762/crispr-baby-twins-lulu-and-nana-what-happened/] // Here are 10 studies against 14 target sites both near, upstream & downstream of Dr. He Jiankui's target site: (@biohackinfo
17:06 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/4LOVofScience/status/1201948412490350593
17:06 < EmmyNoether> I Used My Own Blood Serum For Human Tissue Culture and it Worked Just as Well as Fetal Bovine Serum. // I am calling it Josiah Juice & it will be on sale soon. / Just kidding. / Or am I? // http://www.josiahzayner.com/2019/12/using-my-own-blood-serum-for-human.html // #biohacker #biohacking https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK4tc1kUEAAP1K3.jpg (@4LOVofScience)
17:06 < kanzure> oh brother.
17:17 < nmz787> well, it's not a terrible idea to publicize
17:26 < fenn> do you want blood borne pathogens? because this is how you get blood borne pathogens
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17:28 < nmz787> how am I going to get blood borne pathogens? Drawing my own blood? Culturing stuff in my own unkown-purity serum ?
17:28 < nmz787> Most things I'd be using (my own) serum for, probably won't be production scale... and it's easy enough to just not consume the output
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17:35 < brabo> nmz787: "reports on vitamin E reacting and making cyanide or something" that i did not see yet. the link i gave does mention enough that vit e acetate is not something you want to inhale. or you get gravely ill or die
17:36 < brabo> and that that was known way before honey cut too
17:37 < brabo> the reactions of public health institutions baffle me though, and still do
17:37 < brabo> being all vague about the cause
17:37 < fenn> knowledge is not equally distributed. THC vape consumers are relatively new and have assumed that vaping is safe, and never bothered to learn the lessons of the early nicotine vapers
17:37 < brabo> very harmful, people do not know what to avoid
17:38 < fenn> they prefer "natural" coconut oil, which is actually much more damaging to the lungs than synthetic propylene glycol
17:39 < brabo> fenn: that may be part of it yes. but very irresponsible. not being clear about what is in your product. even filing a totally misleading patent.
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17:40 < fenn> the whole thing was a scam designed to mislead consumers about the ingredients by imitating pure THC oil. of course they lied about it. it's just too bad that many people had to die because of it
17:40 < brabo> aye. cheat the bubble test
17:41 < brabo> not only is too bad people died. it is also too bad public health institutions are still lying to the public about the true cause
17:41 < brabo> and are actually making it so that the public sees vaping as bad, and have people go back to smoking.
17:41 < brabo> big tobacco stocks have been going up
17:41 < brabo> meanwhile more people die because they're being vague
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17:42 < brabo> it took cdc months to be honest about the cause
17:43 < brabo> massachusetts dept of public health was 11/12 still lying to everyone
17:43 < brabo> not even one mention of vit e acetate
17:43 < brabo> or thc liquids being the vector
17:44 < fenn> that's the precautionary principle in action for you
17:44 < brabo> idk that principle
17:44 < brabo> :)
17:44 < fenn> it's the "ban everything" approach
17:44 < brabo> oh
17:44 < brabo> but 11/12 they rescinded the emergency ban on all ecigs
17:44 < fenn> dark ages mentality
17:44 < brabo> while saying they still don't know
17:45 < brabo> but in mean time state forbade flavoured ecigs
17:45 < fenn> i thought that was unrelated
17:45 < brabo> so they say, DPH says: oh, that emergency ban wasn't needed. but we still don't know what it was.
17:46 < brabo> admitting the ban wasn't needed, but saying they don't know if it was needed or not
17:46 < brabo> o.O
17:46 < brabo> and we still do not know what causes it
17:46 < brabo> https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/12/massachusetts-dph-admits-that.html
17:47 < fenn> maybe they realized that banning sales of regulated juice wouldn't stop the sales of unregulated juice, which is where the problem was
17:47 < brabo> trustworthy source btw. dr siegel is very much against tobacco, not anti vaping cause he bases himself on facts, a former protege of stanton glantz
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17:48 < brabo> glantz being one of the most prolific anti vape activists
17:48 < fenn> the word you're looking for is "shill"
17:48 < brabo> siegel turned against his former mentor due to glantz' bias and unscientific methods of "proving" vaping is bad
17:50 < brabo> fenn: what is a shill?
17:50 < brabo> in what i said, i'll look up the word itself meanwhile ;)
17:50 < fenn> a paid actor for big tobacco
17:50 < brabo> ah
17:50 < brabo> no
17:51 < brabo> the ironic part is: it's anti tobacco activists who see vaping as as bad as smoking that go all the way to try to make vaping look as bad as smoking
17:51 < brabo> and people buy it, go back to smoking
17:51 < brabo> cause they know that will kill them eventually
17:51 < brabo> but not fast as 1 toke from a vape could!
17:53 < brabo> glantz is anti tobacco too. but sees vaping as as big a danger, and does the work for big tobacco not paid by them. big tobacco can't say their product is healthy. having others make vaping look bad is the best they could ever have dreamed
17:53 < nmz787> fenn: isn't THC vaping just an oil extract though? there's nothing cutting it
17:53 < brabo> then people don't use it to stop smoking but stick to what they know
17:54 < fenn> nmz787: that is what honey cut is designed to mimic. you "cut" the pure extract with a liquid of similar viscosity to the extract
17:54 < brabo> nmz787: it used to get cut with pg/vg but then a bubble test would kindof indicate how pure it is
17:54 < brabo> vit e acetate oil is also thick
17:55 < brabo> so the cart would look to be pure in thc oil and not cut with pg/vg as was customary
17:55 < nmz787> fenn: is that only in unregulated states? around here everything goes through mass-spec or HPLC, etc
17:55 < brabo> that was the genius of honey cut, and why it sold like crazy, and why so many got ill and died
17:55 < brabo> it was sold legally
17:55 < brabo> it did not contain thc
17:56 < brabo> black market thc liquid manufacturers would then use it to cut their thc oil
17:56 < brabo> black market thc carts
17:56 < brabo> that is the source
17:56 < fenn> there are black markets in states where it's illegal and also in states where it's legal, because the regulatory process is expensive and wasteful
17:57 < brabo> unregulated market, upstream supllier not being honest, no QA/QC
17:57 < brabo> yes fenn but legal thc carts are double the price there as black market
17:57 < brabo> :p
17:57 < fenn> an entire crop can be marked as not for sale, due to mold or whatever, and then all your profits for the year go down the drain
17:57 < nmz787> yeah, but you also probably don't want to smoke/vape mold
17:57 < fenn> so even legitimate sellers will sell on the black market, identical products
17:58 < nmz787> THC carts are cheap as dirt around here, in stores
17:58 < nmz787> but we have a surplus of like years worth of consumption or something
17:58 < brabo> nmz787: hm ok, that sounds nice :)
17:58 < brabo> but ye
17:58 < brabo> honey cut had in their patent application pg/vg
17:59 < brabo> so even responsible downstream mixers would not have dared guess it had 90% or so something as dangerous to inhale as vit e acetate in it
17:59 < brabo> which pretty much everyone who know about that stuff knows you should not inhale
18:00 < fenn> also i think some forms of vitamin e are safe to vape, but the supplier of the vitamin e wouldn't have known the intended use, and probably assumed it was for cosmetics
18:00 < brabo> so even if everything the whole line was legal, this could still have happened because honey cut for their "intended use" wasn't regulated to be open about the ingredients
18:01 < brabo> and lied about the contents in their patent application
18:01 < fenn> there are a dozen molecules known as vitamin e
18:01 < brabo> fenn: vitamine e acetate oil specifically
18:01 < brabo> the honey cut guy made a mistake there
18:01 < fenn> the acetate part doesn't matter really
18:01 < brabo> there is vitamine e one can mix with thc oil
18:02 < brabo> and people have done this and sold it for years without incidents
18:02 < fenn> oh it's an ester of alpha tocopherol and acetate
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18:03 < brabo> in 2015, Constance Finley applied for a patent on a vape pen containing CBD and vitamin E. Finley is the founder of the San Francisco medical cannabis company Constance Therapeutics,
18:04 < brabo> According to Finley, more than 4,000 customers over seven years used her company's product without incident.
18:05 < brabo> according to the leafly report on honey cut, this was a previous idea using vit e, and honey cut could well have been a bad copy..
18:06 < brabo> and then he lied about his product to keep his secretsauce, and defeating the bubble test pushed it high fast in popularity for people cutting thc oil
18:06 < brabo> anyway, horror story to me
18:09 < brabo> and because i see this as entirely possible to happen in other cases, that if i ever want to sell eliquids, i want gc/ms to verify every batch does not have sudden unknowns
18:10 < brabo> as i suspect gc/ms in this case makes an ideal representation of what a customer would inhale
18:10 < fenn> there are a variety of other analytical instruments one could use in addition. the problem is much easier if all you have to do is detect a change
18:11 < brabo> maybe, but a change can be some totally unknown and unexpected ingredient. so i must screen as widely as possible
18:11 < brabo> and afaik gc/ms does work by creating a vapor and then detecting and measuring whatever is in it?
18:12 < fenn> off the top of my head, IR spectrometer, raman laser spectrometer, electrical impedance spectrum
18:12 < fenn> gc/ms is running two spectra at once, so you get basically a 2D plot
18:12 < brabo> that are.. different alternate methods?
18:12 < brabo> or?
18:12 < fenn> yes
18:12 < brabo> aha!
18:12 < brabo> that is a piece of info i want :D
18:13 < brabo> thanks
18:13 < fenn> i don't know as much about analytical chemistry as i'd like
18:13 < fenn> you might ask in ##chemistry about what other instruments are cheap and easy to get secondhand
18:14 < fenn> HPLC is common for testing supplements etc
18:14 < brabo> fenn: aha, thanks once more. that sounds like a good place to prod for more infos
18:14 < brabo> yeah it's the high pressure liquid alternative to gc/ms right?
18:15 < fenn> it's similar to the GC part of GC/MS
18:16 < brabo> i came across hplc trying to make a bit of sense of what gc/ms is
18:16 < brabo> thanks, this gives me some points of further researching :)
18:17 < brabo> i have literally no knowledge of chemistry and all of this. whatever i ever learned i forgot decades ago. but i am exploring mixing eliquids, as a business idea. and with what i know, i would rather ensure i am not taking any chances with anyones health
18:18 < brabo> the honey cut case to me just goes to show: you need to analyse and measure to know.
18:18 < brabo> and be responsible before passing on shit to people
18:20 < brabo> and if i ever want to deal with consumables. i want to be sure that what people end up consuming doesn't have extra surprises to it.
18:21 < brabo> and be sure that what they do end up consuming are only things that have a clean track record for plenty of years for the delivery method
18:22 < fenn> i share your concern about added flavors
18:22 < fenn> there's just too many things to test
18:22 < brabo> so, sorry to be talkative about this, but i want to get the info i need to learn more and look further ;)
18:23 < brabo> fenn: well, perfection is impossible. but i do want to go the extra 100 miles to ensure myself of being as responsible as i can be
18:26 < brabo> not being responsible is the red thread in the whole evali story. from honey cut right to cdc/dph(mass)/many others
18:27 < fenn> i think it's just the typical scientist "we can't be sure it's X" even though they're sitting on piles of evidence that say it's X
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18:27 < fenn> and then clueless government people playing a game of telephone
18:29 < brabo> hey phase
18:30 < phase> howdy :)
18:30 < brabo> fenn: sorry, but if all indications point to Z being the cause of a health crisis, you share this, you don't play dumn for months
18:31 < brabo> certainly not as a public health insitute
18:31 < brabo> be open and honest and prevent deaths
18:31 < brabo> lie and be vague and cause many more
18:31 < brabo> the true cause was clear since second part of august btw
18:31 < brabo> people are still getting sick and dying today
18:31 < brabo> because of the lying
18:32 < brabo> by public health insitutes
18:32 < brabo> *institutes
18:33 < brabo> from honey cut to the public health institutes, this has been the perfectest storm big tobacco could have had in their dreams. their stocks are going up/
18:34 < brabo> fenn: i believe you spoke about nic salts too earlier, no? phase is the person i mentioned
18:34 < kanzure> at the risk of getting banned, https://quillette.com/2018/05/10/two-arguments-inequality/
18:34 < phase> hi fenn.. hello all, btw
18:34 < brabo> phase: nmz787 is someone else who spoke about nic freebase
18:35 < phase> yeah, freebase is the 'normal' or original nic liquid type.  salts are what you can get in jewel and have been widely available more recently
18:35 < phase> er juul
18:35 < brabo> kanzure: looks like i will enjoy that post, but not now, in the morrow ;)
18:36 < kanzure> i don't care
18:36 < juul> ?
18:36 < kanzure> juul: context leak... not sure if i should ban them yet. waiting on fenn.
18:36 < brabo> juul: haha ;) i think phase meant the brand, not you ;)
18:36 < kanzure> stop with the emoticons
18:37 < phase> yeah, sorry for the ping, meant the brand
18:37 < kanzure> i'm having flashbacks to juri_
18:37 < brabo> kanzure: pure text has this notorious lack of emtional context. i am sorry if the smileys upset you.
18:38 < juul> ah. still better than teens asking for mango flavor on twitter
18:38 < phase> heh, true.  i have some cousins that started vaping, and never smoked.  sad fact.
18:38 < fenn> have you gotten monetary offers for your twitter handle?
18:39 < brabo> but maybe if smileys do upset you that much, you shouldn't be online. just saying.
18:39 < kanzure> maybe you should be more concise
18:40 < brabo> may be i should. but may be i am just not that good with words that i can express myself precisely enough with few words. maybe i wasn't aware that verbosity already offended you.
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18:54 < phase> i'm interested in some nootroics
18:54 < phase> nootropics
18:55 < phase> i've been looking into creatine as a nootropic
18:55 < phase> a lot of the stuff out there is snake oil, so i'd be interested in any info or recommendations
18:55 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:55 < phase> with 1st hand experience
18:56 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::3] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:56 < fenn> i've heard good things about creatine but can't stomach it myself
18:57 < phase> i use phenibut
18:57 < phase> with success..
18:57 < phase> have to be careful to not use it every day though, the withdrawal is weird
18:58 < phase> i'll take gabapentin when i stop using phenibut
18:58 < phase> i do, rather
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19:18 < kanzure> .wik histosonics
19:18 < EmmyNoether> "High-intensity focused ultrasound (HIFU) is a non-invasive therapeutic technique that uses non-ionizing ultrasonic waves to heat tissue." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histotripsy
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19:20 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YV0lou4L4c2
19:20 < EmmyNoether> Portable Acoustic Tractor Beam: build it at your home - YouTube
19:27 < phase> kewl
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 17 00:00:39 2019