--- Log opened Thu Feb 27 00:00:06 2020
00:10 < nmz787> https://reposcope.com/package/optgeo
00:10 < nmz787> .title
00:10 < saxo> optgeo - simulator for geometrical optics
00:10 < nmz787> ppl are saying this is not too bad to get started with optical modelling
00:10 < nmz787> and there are debian packages ;)
00:11 < nmz787> "optgeo is a program to plot the movement of rays through an optic equipment. Many pieces, like lenses, mirrors, curved mirrors can be assembled."
00:13 < nmz787> and hey, there are a *bunch* of examples
00:13 < nmz787> the titles are in french, however
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01:05 < fenn> ebay seller cancelled my erythromycin
01:05 < fenn> probably because ebay filtered that keyword
01:06 < fenn> because it's a drug used in humans
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03:32 < adlai> lsneff & fenn the strong rationale against 3d printing entire machines is ease of repair; if your machine is designed according to the resilience of a single print run, and suffers a fracture, you'll have to replace the entire thing instead of just one component
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03:33 < adlai> dense bones also increase energy requirements for ~everything; even respiration would require more muscular force
03:35 < adlai> since much of our evolutionary history has involved climbing and chasing, i do not find the rarity of a high bone density mutation surprising
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04:47 < archels_> we just had an onsite two day workshop cancelled because of covid-19 D:
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06:34 < lsneff> I have an internship in the Seattle area this summer. It's certainly going to be interesting with covid over our heads.
06:46 < fenn> where at?
06:47 < lsneff> Msft
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06:48 < fenn> heh
06:48 < fenn> i figured it would be one of the various space startups in boeing's orbit
06:50 < lsneff> I'm trying to get into the space industry, but I already signed on to return to msft this summer before I switched out of comp sci
06:51 < fenn> tethers unlimited is in some suburb of seattle. they seem to get up to a lot of interesting stuff
06:52 < fenn> business is not exactly booming though
06:55 < kanzure> pretty sure this is a bad batch of galantamine. oh well.
06:56 < kanzure> nmz787: what was the arrangement we were trying to simulate or analytically solve a few years ago? optgeo might be useful for that.
06:56 < kanzure> it may have been a phased array setup
06:56 < kanzure> or something about a microscope and laser etching
07:05 < lsneff> I'm honestly really worried about the coronavirus. Not for myself exactly, but for civilization.
07:06 < lsneff> People in America cannot afford to go to the hospital, so they won't get checked for the virus, and they'll spread is rapidly because they can't afford to stay home.
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07:07 < lsneff> Unless a vaccine happens really soon, I fear that, as they say, all empires fall eventually.
07:07 < fenn> i'm hoping that it will end up being mild enough for most people that it's not really a disaster
07:07 < darsie> Make America great again.
07:08 < fenn> yeehaw
07:10 < kanzure> if y'all are so concerned, then formalize the plan for the DIY vaccine that was proposed a few days ago in here
07:11 < kanzure> a few people have pinged me knowing that i could organize such a ridiculous thing, and the beginnings of a plan is there
07:11 < kanzure> so go make a blog post or a website saying what the plan is and repeat yashgaroth's cost estimates
07:11 < kanzure> and then slap on a bitcoin address or paypal donation address
07:16 < lsneff> If some hackers working on borrowed lab time can throw together a vaccine, why will it take so long for commercial entities to do it.
07:17 < kanzure> regulation, liability, testing. the plan that yashgaroth put forward did not include testing.
07:18 < kanzure> also scale-p
07:18 < kanzure> scale-up
--- Log closed Thu Feb 27 07:23:29 2020
--- Log opened Thu Feb 27 07:23:29 2020
07:26 < lsneff> I don't know, I feel conflicted.
07:37 < darsie> paypal blocked the funds of a guy who organized a big 18650 battery group order.
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07:38 < kanzure> yeah got to stop those pesky... uh.. energy hoarders?
07:38 < darsie> He had to finance the order and deliver before getting the funds.
07:39 < darsie> "unusual activity" or so.
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07:41 < darsie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1rYgD8luGw Paypal RUINED our 18650 battery GroupBUY WHAT A Nightmare
07:46 < kanzure> yeah this is a common problem with paypal
07:50 < kanzure> if anyone wants to kill a few brain cells for a few hours: write a tool to make a merkle tree (well it will probably be some other kind of hash tree?)  of irc log hashes and opentimestamps timestamps such that you can selectively reveal and prove individual lines without revealing the rest of the log, and/or different precomputed subsets of lines with inclusion proofs and timestamps
07:50 < kanzure> opentimestamps has a resolution of like 2 hours on average but sometimes you get luckier, so line-by-line timestamps aren't necessarily out of the question
07:52 < kanzure> for different subsets it's a little bit of a blowup since you can't predict which subsets are going to be interesting or which things you won't want to reveal together
07:54 < fenn> just hash each line
07:55 < kanzure> i guess you can reveal each line, and then the timestamp for each line, instead of a timestamp for the group over that specific subset, so you cut down on total timestamps to make
07:55 < kanzure> ok fine
07:56 < kanzure> i don't actually have a use case for this really- it would have to be private group chats that you might want to reveal later?
07:56 < kanzure> and you're polite about only revealing relevant things and not other private things. so selective reveal.
07:56 < kanzure> for truly selective reveal it would have to be a hash over each part of every message, since you might not want to reveal the entire line.
07:57 < kanzure> (requires nonces so that you can't guess collisions)
07:58 < kanzure> btw hashing each line isn't enough because it wont prove order of lines, still need a tree or other data structure
07:58 < fenn> yes of course. you need a tree in order to include it in opentimestamps anyway
07:59 < fenn> i'd hash the time along with the line
07:59 < kanzure> the time can be forged... but i guess the whole line can be forged.. so i guess the time should be good enough.
08:03 < fenn> i guess there could be some use case for revealing a line but not the time it was said
08:03 < fenn> but then "proving" order of lines is a bitch
08:03  * fenn shrugs
08:04 < fenn> maybe a line number
08:04 < fenn> have 2 sets of hashes, one with times, one with line numbers
08:05 < fenn> if you're nutso you can even use sorted random numbers so they don't know exactly how many lines have not been revealed
08:06 < kanzure> i'm exactly that kind of nuts
08:06 < fenn> speculative paranoia turns you into steve
08:07 < kanzure> i am pretty sure i got contact autism after i first met him (although to be fair the trend was already there)
08:07 < kanzure> s/after/when
08:14  * nsh frowns
08:14 < nsh> order is nothing more than a dependency between opentimestamp hashes in the commitments to subsequent lines
08:14 < kanzure> while i'm at it, if anyone is lazy and wants to do a bitcoin project, i propose "the eye of bitcoin" twitter account- based on the known-wrong-but-funny-anyway concept that there's only a limited amount of attention or computational capacity in the universe at any given moment, and just observing where the locus of attention in the bitcoin developer community happens to be at any given moment ...
08:14 < kanzure> ...(e.g. just monitor which irc channels presently have an in-depth brainy conversation and tweet about those as they occur)
08:15 < kanzure> nsh: right but you want to create the timestamp commitment before the next line exists
08:15 < nsh> right
08:15 < nsh> the average reader of twitter has interest or ability to process the average brainy conversation
08:15 < nsh> +no interest
08:15 < kanzure> s/lazy/bored
08:15 < nsh> you'd have to boil it down a bit to turn it into a 'development'
08:16 < nsh> idk if that can be automated
08:16 < kanzure> well it's more useful for busy professionals to find out what is going on
08:16 < nsh> i mean maybe clustering of statistically improbable concepts
08:16 < nsh> ok
08:16 < kanzure> improbable concepts maybe... but an easier heuristic is just stalk some users.
08:16 < fenn> there is in fact only a limited amount of attention and computational capacity in the universe
08:17 < kanzure> no i mean the one where we speculated that if someone is "being smart" at the moment, someone somewhere else has to be stupid for the same amount of time
08:17 < nsh> there is only a limited amount of interface between finite meatbags and the infinite attentional and computational capacity of the universe
08:17 < kanzure> because of simulation cpu load issues
08:17 < fenn> ah
08:17 < kanzure> i don't know what to call that. it's a funny one.
08:19 < kanzure> "dear world, we are computing a complex mathematical model of universal colonization and expansion for the next 2 hours, please excuse any computational inadequacy in the mean time"
08:19 < kanzure> i guess this is borderline plagiraizing greg egan's luminous but instead of math theorems it's just computational capacity.
08:22 < fenn> if you say so
08:23 < fenn> in luminous they could manipulate the value of e.g. 2+2 by performing other calculations ahead of time
08:23 < fenn> at least in principle
08:24 < kanzure> something about proving a theorem a certain way caused the theorem to only be computable the way it was proven the first time... or something.
08:24 < nsh> it's not too different to the time-order-creation of hashing
08:24 < nsh> a result once established is honoured
08:25 < nsh> there is a plurality of potential results but the first arrived at takes away from the potentiality
08:25 < nsh> as such there are shifting and shiftable boundaries of truth
08:25 < fenn> well either you break the speed of light or else get a race condition
08:26 < nsh> it's suggested that these are sufficiently fractal that you could employ sufficient comptuational capacity to undermine the basis of 'reality'
08:26 < nsh> would be great to turn this into a real game somehow
08:27 < nsh> shame proving systems are still so dull to play
08:27 < nsh> (i assume, not trying)
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08:31 < nsh> .t https://twitter.com/NBChristinaGinn/status/1233052549512597504
08:31 < saxo> BREAKING NEWS: // We are now in the worst stock market drop since financial crisis in 2008. (@NBChristinaGinn)
08:34 < fenn> stonks
08:34 < kanzure> buy stonks
08:34 < kanzure> sell stonks
08:35 < kanzure> https://suredbits.com/discreet-log-contract-demonstration/
08:37 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDTDqiaYmNU
08:37 < saxo> Discreet Log Contract (DLC) Demo - YouTube
08:40 < kanzure> and here's a way to do discreet log contracts https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/discreet-log-contracts/ using ECDSA adaptor signatures https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-November/002316.html
08:41 < lsneff> Looks like covid broke quarantine in norcal
08:43 < TMA> \o/
08:46 < lsneff> o7
08:47 < kanzure> has microsoft made good use of you?
08:48 < kanzure> or did they just throw you into the grinder
08:49 < lsneff> Good use of me? haha
08:50 < lsneff> I don't blame them, interns don't really get to choose where they get put.
08:50 < lsneff> I did switch over to some operating system team this time around though, but I'm not sure which one exactly.
08:52 < kanzure> if that's the case, then maybe /join #osdev
08:53 < kanzure> logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com
08:53 < lsneff> I used to frequent them a lot.
08:53 < lsneff> I wrote an experimental kernel back when I was in high school.
08:54 < lsneff> https://github.com/nebulet/nebulet
09:07 < lsneff> Gosh, that was a while ago. Back in 2018
09:17 < lsneff> I don't feel like I've really done anything as cool since.
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11:25 < nmz787> nsh: srsly... my stock has gone down by like 11% since a week or so ago
11:25 < nmz787> nsh: oh god, checked again just now, it's 14%
11:30 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22436022
11:30 < saxo> Launch HN: Probably Genetic (YC W19): At-home DNA testing for every gene | Hacker News
11:30 < kanzure> this seems to require submitting the sample to a lab
11:31 < kanzure> pretty sure there's a way to do actual at-home DNA testing, in a privacy-preserving way
11:31 < kanzure> without involving a third-party lab. for single genes of interest.
11:32 < kanzure> oh, they are doing exome sequencing. so it's not a per-gene product. well whatever.
11:33 < nmz787> "you might not even have any genes... but we'll try sequencing them anyway!"
11:36 < kanzure> ok nevermind. genomic privacy seems to be unachievable right now.
11:36 < kanzure> or you can sell gene therapy as a genetic privacy tool... rather than an anti-disability/enhancement product.
11:41 < kanzure> no that wouldn't work, because if someone doesn't trust a third party with their genome, then they wouldn't be able to avail themselves of gene therapy services to rewrite/obfuscate their genomic privacy
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11:56 < kanzure> "Remote side-channel attacks on anonymous transactions" https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/220.pdf https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/stanford-blockchain-conference/2020/linking-anonymous-transactions/
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12:43 < lsneff> Are any of you prepping?
12:48 < yashgaroth> gonna buy me some beans today
12:49 < nmz787> prepping for?
12:49 < yashgaroth> coronapocalypse
12:50 < kanzure> unclear how serious people are when they are asking me about DIY vaccine projects.
12:50 < kanzure> i would say things like that are on-topic, but general prepper stuff less so
12:52 < nmz787> I've been prepping before a bat ever got COVID19
13:29 < superkuh> I was just reminiscing about trying to find a over the counter path to tamiflu back in the 2005 days (w/Chris).
13:29 < superkuh> A useless task but fun.
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15:19 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKFhbHwaVFE
15:19 < docl> .title
15:19 < saxo> DNA Manipulation in Living Subjects - YouTube
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15:28 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2008-12-09.log
15:28 < kanzure> 05:04 < gene_> why don't we use crypto money like in cryptomoicon
15:28 < kanzure> 05:05 < fenn> havent we had this conversation before
15:28 < kanzure> 05:05 < gene_> I'll give you a million dollars if you succeed
15:28 < lsneff> Thoughts of Issac Arthur, docl?
15:28 < kanzure> 05:05 < fenn> seems to come up on OM every other day
15:30 < kanzure> 2008-12-19.log:06:15 < gene> we need crypto money
15:30 < kanzure> 2008-12-19.log:06:29 < gene> they aren't crypto money
15:30 < kanzure> 2008-12-19.log:06:31 < gene> well then you know that crypto money is untaxable?
15:32 < lsneff> Is the cryptonomicon any good? I haven't read it.
15:36 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/2009-01-11.log
15:36 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20090208144421/http://bitchun.org/
15:36 < kanzure> (after which i linked to bitcoin.org)
15:37 < kanzure> does anyone have logs for 2009-01-12?
15:37 < kanzure> or 2009-01-13 for that matter.
15:41 < kanzure> whoops i mean http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-11.log
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17:42 < kanzure> https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2020/02/11/toward-_fortify_source-parity-between-clang-and-gcc/
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20:11 < maaku> lsneff: no, it's not
20:12 < maaku> (heretical opinion maybe, but Neal Stephenson is a long winded author that can't tell a story)
20:16 < maaku> The cryptonomicon is the product of a certain time, which I am barely old enough to remember, in which we thought the Internet would somehow be fundamentally different, an overthrow of the existing government controls
20:16 < maaku> How naïve we were.
20:17 < maaku> Not just naïve, but fundamentally wrong.
20:17 < maaku> So cryptonomicon is more like fantasy than science fiction--a description of what could never be, not a source of ideas to mine for the future.
20:20 < maaku> Lol, it's #1 on Gizmodo's "10 Books You Pretend to Have Read"
20:23 < maaku> And the only one on that list I've actually read. Hrm...
20:24 < maaku> <kanzure> maaku: any interest in moving forward? we can write up a plan document.
20:24 < maaku> (and yashgaroth:) yes. I'd like a quote on what it'd cost to put together a fully fleshed proposal
20:26 < maaku> I'd like to pay for the proposal because I'm not sure I'd be able to personally afford funding the whole thing right now
20:26 < kanzure> doable; let me get back to you.
20:26 < maaku> But with a proposal maybe we can drum up some other interest as you mention.
20:28 < maaku> totally undrelated ... is there anyone on this channel which conlangs?
20:29 < kanzure> maybe nsh
20:29 < kanzure> maaku: what level of detail would you like the proposal to get to.
20:29 < kanzure> 2-3 page overview, or line-by-line breakdown of equipment, reagents, procedures, etc.
20:30 < maaku> more like a 2-3 page overview and timeline
20:30 < maaku> just written to enough detail that a non-biologist can understand
20:34 < yashgaroth> aight
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20:57 < maaku> nsh: conlang much?
20:58 < maaku> The next project I'm wanting to fund when I find time to get it started is a logical language based on neo-Davidsonian semantics
21:00 < maaku> I've been looking for collaborators in the conlang space, but given that the thing I'm making is an unambiguous grammar for scientific thought, someone here who has a side interest in conlanging might be better...
21:02 < kanzure> wrong timezone, think he's sleepful
21:02 < midnight> I read that whole Cryptonomicon monstrosity. It was terrible right up until it suddenly wasn't and I realized that it changed the way I thought about things. Getting to that point was a multi-month slog. :-(
21:03 < maaku> https://www.nyu.edu/projects/champollion/eventsemantics/nyu_2016_course.pdf
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21:04 < kanzure> .title https://www.meetup.com/BioCurious/events/268159598/
21:04 < saxo> Wuhan Virus Co-Learning Hackathon | Meetup
21:04 < kanzure> .title https://www.bagevent.com/event/6368833
21:04 < saxo> Hack for Wuhan                            -BagEvent
21:07 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1233257167857356800
21:07 < saxo> just agreed to a preliminary paid contract to organize development of DIY coronavirus vaccine. #biohacking (@kanzure)
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21:36 < maaku> I am in bitcoin due to a chain of events which started by reading Cryptonomicon. It was certainly influentual.
21:36 < maaku> But I'm sure there are better stuff out there now.
21:40 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/_drgo/status/1233265621065842689
21:40 < saxo> @kanzure Will be challenging. Immunity seems short lived for coronaviruses. Also, antibody dependent pathways for cell entry. If there is a way to activate the complement system without interacting with cellular immunity that would side step antibody dependent enhancement of the infection (@_drgo, in reply to tw:1233257167857356800)
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22:21 < nmz787> I'm assuming this isn't the art book called cryptonomicon...
22:27 < nmz787> oh, no, that's necronomicon
23:46 < fenn> kanzure: well i found some really old logs (2008)
23:48 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/hplusroadmap_2008.tgz
23:53 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/hplusroadmap.log_2008_2009.tgz
23:54 < fenn> i guess you had already processed that one
--- Log closed Fri Feb 28 00:00:00 2020