--- Log opened Tue Mar 03 00:00:12 2020 00:21 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 01:01 < archels_> lsneff[m]: in my experience, people are often confused between "living forever" and "indefinite lifespan" 01:03 < archels_> they think that they will be condemned to live forever without chance of escape 01:13 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:25 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:38 < TMA> lsneff: it's easy to comprehend if you realize, that life is seen as unpleasant and extending it just inflicts more pain 02:08 < TMA> lsneff: I myself have thought it pleasant to live 10000 years or more just about a quarter century ago, nowadays I am not convinced that living (extended or not) has any merit at all (except for it being the default option at the moment) [main causes for the shift I have identified: (1) encountering limits to what can I do (2) decline in the ability to feel pleasure] 02:35 < nmz787> I'd like to live longer these days, because things are going pretty well for me, and I realize all the desires/goals I have would take far longer than my lifetime will likely allow... 02:35 < nmz787> but I'm pretty well "middle road" in mindset 02:36 < nmz787> my wife gets frustrated at how I consider so many sides, and simultaneously care deeply about things while being able to drop their importance 02:56 -!- MarkOtaris [mark-otari@wikimedia/Mark-Otaris] has quit [Quit: killed] 02:56 -!- kun0[m] [kun0matrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rhxehmqvpbdcorsz] has quit [Quit: killed] 02:57 -!- lsneff[m] [lsneffmozi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ctxykbfyyhsmgqik] has quit [Quit: killed] 03:20 -!- kun0[m] [kun0matrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bsizoymhrmzjdqln] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:43 < fenn> life has merit because it's the only way to do anything at all 03:43 < fenn> if you encounter limits to what you can do or feel, you need to change, not die 03:46 -!- MarkOtaris [mark-otari@wikimedia/Mark-Otaris] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:46 -!- lsneff[m] [lsneffmozi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cepzuitnpylrgtar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:47 < fenn> relevant: https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/biography/guinea-pig-b 04:11 < TMA> why the bias for action? ... but ... whatever floats your boat, I guess. ... it's not as if you (or I or anyone) have any choice in that (or any other) matter: the most we have is a feeling of choice availability - the so called free will 04:30 < fenn> because there are more possible actions than inactions, so it's more likely that the purpose of existence, if there is one, is to do something 04:35 -!- lsneff[m] [lsneffmozi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cepzuitnpylrgtar] has left ##hplusroadmap ["User left"] 04:37 < lsneff> I think a lot of it is that they feel that wanting to live longer is unnatural and full of hubris. 04:37 < lsneff> There's some deep-seated guilt stopping them. 04:37 < lsneff> But also, maybe they legitimately don't enjoy life. 04:38 < lsneff> I've been there, but i can still see how there's so much to do and see. Too much for one lifetime or a thousand. 04:39 < fenn> deathists are the first to chirp about how life is wonderful. maybe they just want to get out while they're still ahead 04:40 < TMA> true, many posibilities. but why it is preferred to "do and see"? That is the piece I ceased to believe to understand. 04:41 < fenn> there are infinitely many non-entities not existing already 04:41 < fenn> adding one more won't help 04:42 < fenn> look around 04:42 < fenn> there are trillions of stars visible in the sky, none of which show any sign of life. the most likely explanation is that life is very rare 04:42 < TMA> at least some christian deathists do profess (maybe even believe) that life is not wonderful but terrible in comparison to afterlife 04:43 < fenn> then they should all sign up for duty on a poorly maintained alaskan fishing boat 04:43 < TMA> fenn: rare does not mean valuable, unless the thing is also desirable 04:44 < fenn> you have no basis to say that, since you have no basis for valuing anything (or any not-thing) 04:45 < fenn> rare things may in fact be intrinsically valuable 04:47 < fenn> for all we know, common things are also intrinsically valuable, but more weight is put on the decision to keep or destroy a member of the rare set 04:47 < fenn> simply because there are less of them 04:48 < fenn> say you have a hundred keys and a lock you need to open. you can only carry 3 keys. one of the keys looks different from all the others. which keys do you take with you? 04:51 < TMA> if I am forced to carry three keys I will carry whichever three I am being forced to carry. I do not see the point in carrying them otherwise. 04:51 < fenn> aren't you at all curious about what's behind the lock? 04:53 < TMA> if I am forced to pretend I do choose them then I might either pick any three at random or the special and other two at random based on how I perceive the force "wants" me to pretend 04:53 < TMA> what has curiosity to do with the choice? 04:53 < fenn> there's no force, there's just some keys and a lock and a long distance between where the keys are and where the lock is 04:54 < TMA> it is not causally linked to the choice 04:55 < TMA> I do not know which key the lock is opened by 04:55 < fenn> curiosity is a goal-neutral evolved heuristic/motivation that, if your brain were functioning normally, would cause you to want to open the lock 04:56 < TMA> either I might postulate the different key is somehow privileged (as in more likely or less likely to open) but based on my knowledge I do not know 04:56 < TMA> "want" is not causally linked to opening the lock either 04:56 < fenn> sure it is 04:56 < fenn> if you don't want to open the lock, you won't do it 04:57 < TMA> "want" might influence the strategy, but lacking any prior information it probably does not affect the outcome 04:58 < fenn> why would information help you? 04:58 < fenn> you don't even want to open the lock, so knowing which key opens the lock doesn't matter 05:00 < TMA> the baseline chance of opening the lock given attempting to do it is 3% (if I do my maths correctly) 05:02 < lsneff> As TMA is seemingly pointing out, a significant motivator for extending my own life is my curiosity. 05:02 < fenn> you've incorrectly assumed that there is a uniform distribution, that all keys are equally likely to open the lock 05:02 < TMA> having no other information this is the correct guess 05:02 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:03 < fenn> why? 05:03 < TMA> precisely because you have no other information 05:03 < fenn> you do have information. one of the keys is different 05:05 < fenn> i could tell you "this key opens the lock" but then why would you even believe me? 05:05 < fenn> you are distrusting your own eyes, it's madness 05:06 < fenn> i suppose you think madness is ok too 05:07 < TMA> from what you described is this: 99 of those https://www.etrailer.com/static/images/pics/W/I/WI490KEY_2_1000.jpg and one different. 05:08 < TMA> so there is (a) you are evil and try to mislead by the difference, therefore the correct is one of the 99, or (b) you are secretly helpful and therefore the one different is the correct one 05:09 < TMA> picking the different and two others would reduce the chance to 2% in the (a) scenario while bumping it to 100% in the other 05:09 -!- fox2p [~fox2p@cpe-66-108-32-173.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: hash] 05:10 * lsneff sighs 05:11 < TMA> [and that is still assuming that the information "one of those 100 is the correct key" is true] 05:19 < TMA> I see, I shall pick three of the 99 giving me 3/99 chance (extrapolating from experience everyone is evil, but not everyone is smart, therefore it would be the (a) scenario, not (a*) scenario where the different key is as likely to be the correct as any other - but this would only happen when a smart evil opponent was expecting me to be smart (and evil, but that's irrelevant here)); but then there is still the question whether the expected gain of satisfying 05:23 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:24 < TMA> so the question is: Am I able to ignore my own assessment that even trying to satisfy my curiosity is a net loss in happiness (as subjectively experienced)? 05:28 * TMA probably should* not have raised the "why the bias for action?" question. /me was unable to, however. the choice was made long before the sense of free will kicked in to feel like making it 05:29 < lsneff> I think you should try to reign your subconscious back in. 05:29 < TMA> * should = others might have resulted in feeling better 05:31 < fenn> so you believe you're in the (a) scenario but not the (b) scenario? 05:32 < fenn> and i am an opponent suddenly? 05:33 < TMA> fenn: most probably (what would be the point in locking the lock in the first place if it would be so easy as "pick the only different key" to unlock it?) 05:33 < fenn> because the whole damn scenario was contrived to show you why rare things are valuable! 05:33 < TMA> fenn: everyone is an opponent (by virtue of not being self) it is just a convenient label 05:33 < lsneff> Ah, that explains a bit. 05:34 < fenn> i have a little more sympathy for God now 05:35 < fenn> thanks TMA, this has been a good lesson 05:35 < TMA> [x] human [x] concurrent in existence with self ==> competes for the same resources [x] 05:36 < TMA> thats why I label other humans as opponents 05:37 < lsneff> That seems like a very primitive world view, no? 05:38 < fenn> you didn't even try to trick me into revealing which key opens the lock (as if i knew) 05:40 < TMA> lsneff: do you breathe (and therefore deplete the available oxygen for me to breathe)? sure you do. therefore you are competing with me for oxygen. (and vice versa) [on Earth as of now that's not a problem, but there are scenarios (being trapped in a submarine) where even such minor competition might escalate) 05:41 < TMA> we can even cooperate (mostly to outcompete others or remove the scarcity that threatens competition escalation undesirable effects) 05:42 -!- CRM114 [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48 < TMA> fenn: sorry for ruining your demonstration. may I point out, that even if the rare key were valuable in this scenario (as perhaps meant to initially), it would be only because it (1) opens the lock (2) which I would find desirable because of (3) me wanting to open it in order to (4) satisfy my curiosity hence (5) obtaining some pleasure from it 05:49 < fenn> maybe. i guess we'll never know 05:49 < lsneff> I'm not a fan of codifying human behavior like that honestly. 06:00 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:04 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14 < kanzure> what if TMA is already dead 06:15 < fenn> what if we're already dead 06:16 < kanzure> with an attitude like TMA's you're probably already dead yes 06:17 < kanzure> nani? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WChHqaO5SeI 06:19 -!- HumanGeek [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:22 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:25 * TMA is indeed already dead (in the long term perspective) 06:33 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:38 < kanzure> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/thermo-fisher-scientific-to-acquire-qiagen-nv-301015072.html 06:44 < kanzure> "Pricing ASICs for cryptocurrency mining" https://arxiv.org/pdf/2002.11064.pdf 07:05 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shwqbparfvzgsvce] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:50 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.169] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:06 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 < kanzure> .title https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2019/07/radiolab-on-embryo-selection-in-ivf.html 09:08 < saxo> Information Processing: RadioLab on embryo selection in IVF 09:14 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shwqbparfvzgsvce] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:15 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [] 10:24 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:00 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csojeyhwubojqdah] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:13 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@98.29.27.253] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:18 -!- Guest60371 [~talinck@98.29.27.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:24 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22476514 12:24 < saxo> Show HN: InventHub – Visual version control for electronics design | Hacker News 12:38 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-23-46.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:07 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csojeyhwubojqdah] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:34 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:47 < superkuh> http://zon.trilinkbiotech.com/2020/03/03/dna-sequencing-of-microbial-communities/ 13:47 < superkuh> "Entirely Off-Grid Solar-Powered DNA Sequencing of Microbial Communities During an Ice Cap Traverse Expedition" 14:08 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:32 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-23-46.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:30 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 16:45 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:04 -!- N-time [~Mark@212.225.172.60] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:14 -!- segundaco [~Mark@212.225.172.60] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:15 -!- N-time [~Mark@212.225.172.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:27 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:47 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Quit: ars longa vita brevis] 17:52 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.249] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:26 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:36 -!- HumanGeek [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:48 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:58 -!- segundaco [~Mark@212.225.172.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:17 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:29 < kanzure> hmph 20:26 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:41 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:59 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 22:17 -!- CRM114 [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:21 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:25 -!- offseccat [~offseccat@213.74.249.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:27 -!- strages [uid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snympzlpctesjkhf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:45 < offseccat> Any information with BioHacking technique for "Quit Smoking" ? 23:58 < jrayhawk> Find alternate delivery mechanisms for nicotine and MAO-A inhibition and tackle them one at a time? --- Log closed Wed Mar 04 00:00:12 2020