--- Log opened Fri Mar 20 00:00:28 2020
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05:27 < fenn> http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/03/the-lasting-effects-of-the-1918-influenza-pandemic.html
05:37 < lsneff> maaku: Hadn't seen that before, looks interesting.
05:37 < lsneff> Too bad operating systems are so uninspired these days.
05:38 < lsneff> Wonder if you could treat remote cpus as some sort of very laggy numa node
07:13 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22634702
07:13 < saxo> Stanford Student Claims to Run Bootleg Covid-19 Testing Lab | Hacker News
07:26 < lsneff> .title https://phys.org/news/2020-03-scientists-quantum-sensor-entire-radio.html
07:26 < saxo> Scientists create quantum sensor that covers entire radio frequency spectrum
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08:24 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKO9UjSeLew
08:24 < saxo> If Programming Was An Anime - YouTube
08:33 < fenn> re my question about N95 masks at hospitals yesterday: "I just got re-fit tested at sutter on Tuesday and they said that the masks are only reusable for 24 hours.... nothing to do with sterilization, but having to do with how they get broken down with moisture over time..."
08:34 < fenn> the masks are polypropylene fiber with acrylic binder, can't see how that would get broken down with moisture
08:53 < agile_prg> https://copper3d.com/hackthepandemic/
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09:42 < fenn> ""Many
09:42 < fenn> independent labs have developed their own tests but they aren’t allowed to test because the gov’t wants the labs to have a certain certification or says they can test then
09:43 < fenn> says they can’t. In a moment of reflection I was thinking about how the second amendment seems so out of date. The enemy is not going to come shooting. They are going to sneak in undetected
09:43 < fenn> and only be identifiable by their genetic code. We need the right to wield diagnostic technologies, sequencers, PCRs, spectrometers, MRIs in our garages, and even CRISPR
09:43 < fenn> (which perhaps needs a background check) not AR-15s. If the government is to turn on us and we have to form a militia the attack and defense and counterattack will be
09:43 < fenn> biologic not projectile."
09:45 < fenn> https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/illegal-covid-19-test-kits-seized-at-ohare/
09:45 < fenn> smdh
09:46 < fenn> seems the government already has turned on us
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11:40 < nmz787> fenn: yes it's called CLIA
11:40 < nmz787> and the enemy contaminatined with COVID seems likely to come for all our toilet paperz
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12:43 < agile_prg> https://wirvsvirushackathon.org
12:43 < agile_prg> Does anyone speak german here?
12:59 < TMA> some, but google translator is way better than me, mainly because of way more extensive vocabulary
13:28 < kanzure> forgot to review igem projects 2018-2019 :|
13:29 < kanzure> 12:28 < wumpus> ouch, "Tor Browser Developers (signing key) <torbrowser@torproject.org>" has 22MB of signatures, wouldn't recomment importing that one
13:53 < maaku> the head of the FDA needs to be sacked
13:53 < maaku> "illegal test kit" wtf
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14:12 < agile_prg> ya this is beyond stupid
14:12 < agile_prg> its all corrupt
14:13 < delinquentme> Woke Leftism?  100% agree
14:14 < agile_prg> The democrats want a great depression to try to get back at Trump
14:14 < agile_prg> when is enough enough?
14:14 < agile_prg> if 1 million die in the US to prevent a great depression, sorry to tell but it is worth it
14:14 < delinquentme> nah the left just wants to be rewarded for talking
14:15 < juri_> wow. you two are so full of it.
14:15 < delinquentme> they want to make social appeals to get what they want, vrs going after it -- this is a central tenet of the left
14:15 < delinquentme> ask v take
14:15 < agile_prg> I do hate to say it though, socialized healthcare needs to happen at this point
14:15 < delinquentme> juri_, nope. impossible
14:15 < agile_prg> insurance rates are ridiculous
14:16 < delinquentme> insurance rates are ridicolous bc oligopolic nature of large corps
14:16 < delinquentme> and thats goverened by pareto
14:16 < agile_prg> well the real reason is the malpractice insurance
14:16 < delinquentme> so you gotta fix pareto if you wanna fix that
14:17 < agile_prg> most issues can be traced back to lawyers and what they want for themselves
14:17 < delinquentme> ... " All of the insurance costs are wrapped up in malpractice"?
14:17 < agile_prg> that is a major cause yes
14:17 < delinquentme> no I dont think thats the case. Is automotive insurance costs driven by malpractice?
14:17 < agile_prg> you surprise me but ok
14:17 < delinquentme> what about business insurance
14:17 < delinquentme> what about the assets AIG ensures
14:18 < delinquentme> insurance is way  bigger than medical
14:18 < delinquentme> ill grant its a non-trivial part but insurance is MASSIVE.
14:18 < juri_> I could argue with you, but i've got things to do to try to help people. you're a waste of my bandwidth.
14:18 < delinquentme> ^ leftists bullshit argument
14:19 < delinquentme> fuck man i've heard this " i have a life" bullshit more times than there are starving children in africa
14:19 < delinquentme> juri_, if youre going to participate, dont be a shitty participant and try to bail on a technicality.
14:20 < delinquentme> chances are you're singularly driven by ideology and when you cant silence someone by calling them a transmogrophobic xeno racist nazi
14:20 < delinquentme> well you're conceptually bankrupt so you run away.
14:20 < delinquentme> leftist plebs.
14:22 < delinquentme> juri_,  this is also why the left fails conceptually. Instead of developing a more defensible argument they settle for simple shame plattitudes
14:23 < Urchin> delinquentme: your rant is getting annoyingly lengthy
14:23 < delinquentme> Urchin, lol. who are you?
14:23 < delinquentme> K.
14:23 < Urchin> delinquentme: an online person
14:23 < delinquentme> Like stfu or make a real crititue.
14:24 < delinquentme> critique**
14:24 < delinquentme> If you wanna simp it up go back to reddit.
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14:28 < maaku> kanzure: banhammer?
14:28 < delinquentme> lol maaku who are you
14:28 < delinquentme> fuck man. the fucking left.  Thought crimes and banning.
14:29 < delinquentme> maaku,  im going to find out who you are IRL
14:29 < maaku> did you just threaten me?
14:30 < delinquentme> LOL
14:30 < delinquentme> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
14:30 < delinquentme> maaku christ. THE least threatening men posture like they're something to contend with.
14:30 < delinquentme> this is why science needs dismembered.
14:30 < delinquentme> DOGMA.
14:31 < maaku> delinquentme: this isn't a soapbox. it's a channel with a topic. try to stay on it.
14:31 < delinquentme> maaku stop trying to get people banned because you disagree w them you reprehensible SJW fagggot
14:31 < delinquentme> Ok? Ok.
14:32 < Urchin> delinquentme: considering that offending people is a common reason to ban people, why are you offending people?
14:32 < delinquentme> Science is well within the purview of this channel and me reprimanding you for your leftist woke, ban-invoking behavior is bullshit
14:32 < delinquentme> Urchin, youre a leftist. The sun comes out and youre offended.
14:33 < delinquentme> Where else better to crituque the individuals who prop up unquestioned dogma?
14:34 < Urchin> delinquentme: you just flung at least 2 direct insults at maaku
14:34 < delinquentme> go back to twitter and reddit. You shitheads already enjoy cascading protections for your noveau-religion
14:34 < delinquentme> Urchin, yes of course I did. Your point is what? Nobody should question your politics because in your assessment you're more of a scientist than anyone else here?
14:34 < delinquentme> go die in a hole dude.
14:35 < delinquentme> The fact that the two of you would call for banning someone because their ideas threaten you, precisely highlights the problems of your position.
14:35 < delinquentme> Thinking > Dogma
14:35 < Urchin> delinquentme: no, I'm merely pointing out the classic common rules of politeness on pretty much any sane platform that have been around since the formation of the internet that you are breaking
14:36 < Urchin> delinquentme: when did people stop teaching manners?
14:36 < delinquentme> Urchin, Im shaming you because your position is shameful :D
14:36 < Urchin> delinquentme: you don't even know my position
14:36 < delinquentme> Stop being shitty males who posture moral superiority while being hunchbacked and docile.
14:36 < delinquentme> Urchin, I've sampled it sufficiently
14:37 < delinquentme> send me a linkedin and prove me wrong
14:38 < delinquentme> Calling for bans because of thought-crimes. FFS.
14:38 < delinquentme> Absolutely reprehensible
14:38 < Urchin> manners, dude, manners
14:38 < delinquentme> Urchin, send me a linkedin and ill decide whether you're anyone to be lecturing on decorum.
14:39 < delinquentme> Oddly enough people often enough have beliefs which benefit them at the cost of others.  If you want to question how I comport myself you need to demonstrate that your opinion should even be entertained.
14:39 < Urchin> delinquentme: I'm not about to dox myself to a random internet person
14:40 < delinquentme> Ok then stfu
14:40 < delinquentme> Its about time that someone tells you that just because youre left leaning doesnt mean you default to the moral right.
14:40 < delinquentme> Oh and that being a harmless, docile male isnt some kind of moral virtue.
14:40 < delinquentme> "manners"
14:41 < Urchin> "Oddly enough people often enough have beliefs which benefit them at the cost of others.  If you want to question how I comport myself you need to demonstrate that your opinion should even be entertained." <- if this should apply to anyone, it's you
14:41 < delinquentme> Simp virtues benefit simps :D
14:41 < Urchin> delinquentme: you hardly need to be docile or harmless to have manners
14:41 < delinquentme> TRUE!
14:42 < delinquentme> However. MOST often  (and again this is me making a character assessment based on your behavior) the REASON youre making the appeal youre making
14:42 < delinquentme> is because you have specific character traits which graft well onto specific subsets of people
14:43 < delinquentme> You fit a social mold well
14:43 < Urchin> lol
14:43 < delinquentme> ?
14:43  * Urchin is actually laughing IRL
14:44 < delinquentme> Oh shit. he knows how to use emots
14:44 < delinquentme> lol
14:44 < delinquentme> Right.
14:44 < Urchin> meaning, you're pretty well off the mark
14:44 < delinquentme> So lemme guess you're a  6'5 male whos like 275lbs and like sub 10% bodyfat
14:44 < delinquentme> You're NOT an academic
14:44 < delinquentme> and you arent a simp
14:45 < nmz787> wtf is going on in here
14:45 < delinquentme> nmz787, im blasting these two
14:45 < nmz787> who stole delinquentme's account
14:45 < delinquentme> nah this is me
14:45 < yashgaroth> delinquentme, is there a reason you kramered into the channel at 50 mph to rant about the left
14:45 < delinquentme> Nah i just popped in and riffed off what agile_prg said
14:45 < Urchin> delinquentme: I'd have to convert your american units to check
14:45 < delinquentme> Also the left does need critiqued yashgaroth
14:45 < nmz787> delinquentme: aer you on meth because of that paper that linked meth with reduced likelihood of catching respiratory disease?
14:46 < delinquentme> whaaaaat?
14:46 < nmz787> yeah man, that's a real paper
14:46 < delinquentme> that seems not right. inhaling aerosolized / carbonized substances reduced respiratory disease?
14:46 < Urchin> delinquentme: though I can tell you already that I'm substantially bellow that weight
14:46 < delinquentme> nah Im just shitting on wokies because my wrongthink is banned everywhere else
14:48 < delinquentme> Urchin,  listen I cant critique what your saying outside of a personal character assassination because normally the needs of the woke left are sourced in social neediness.  Like its just going to be really really mean + awful for me to examine you as an individual
14:48 < delinquentme> SO for the betterment of the channel ill just stop there.  But whoever tf maaku is
14:48 < delinquentme> nmz787,  do you know how maaku is?
14:48 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, ?
14:48 < yashgaroth> yep
14:48 < delinquentme> who is he?
14:49 < delinquentme> or it or xir
14:49 < nmz787> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491060/
14:49 < nmz787> .title
14:49 < saxo> Methamphetamine Reduces Human Influenza A Virus Replication
14:49 < nmz787> delinquentme: yes
14:49 < delinquentme> OH. Well viral replication is different from overall lung health
14:49 < delinquentme> Its a study on creating a hostile envrionment for the viral replication. Which seems more plausible.
14:50 < delinquentme> maaku, you gonna call for banhammer again?
14:50 < nmz787> there are more I think
14:50 < maaku> delinquentme: fuck off
14:50 < delinquentme> maaku, <3 wrong think!
14:50 < delinquentme> REEEEE
14:50 < delinquentme> fucking woke lefties.
14:51 < delinquentme> maaku, know what a hierarchy is?
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14:51 < kanzure> knock it off; maaku knows what a hierarchy is.
14:51 < delinquentme> he hes a bitch
14:51 < kanzure> you're acting like a whiny brat. stop it.
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14:52 < delinquentme> Nah dude im playing around and being offensive towards people who are easily offended.
14:52 < delinquentme> "someone said something I disagree with -- BAN THEM"
14:52 < nmz787> eh, it doesn't feel terribly productive though
14:52 < nmz787> being rude is reserved for kanzure only
14:52 < nmz787> :P
14:53 < delinquentme> I mean i dont get to do it anywhere else :D
14:54 < delinquentme> Facebook bans wrongthink, Twitter bans wrongthink
14:54 < juri_> maybe that's a sign. you should try reading it.
14:54 < delinquentme> juri_, or maybe the left is so fragile that it needs protections for something as ephemeral as IDEAS?
14:55  * delinquentme does a think
14:55 < juri_> yeah. kanzure, either do something about this troll, or i'm out. I'll find other ways to help the cause.
14:55 < kanzure> do your politics somewhere else.
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14:55 < delinquentme> juri_, who the fuck are you
14:55 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-q delinquentme!*@*] by kanzure
14:55 < delinquentme> Like seriously
14:56 <@kanzure> maybe some timeout time
14:56 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+q delinquentme!*@*] by kanzure
14:56 < yashgaroth> delinquentme, have you heard of this new site called 4chan, it might be a good fit
14:56 < Urchin> delinquentme: you're attacking more than just ideas, which makes it a violation of the normal good faith debate of ideas
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14:56  * juri_ goes back to idling, hacking things, trying not to panic.
14:56 < Urchin> yay
14:58 < juri_> things recently have been a bit stressy. remember to be kind to yourself, folks.
15:01 < Urchin> I was sorely tempted to play the aristocratic european snob card
15:05 < nmz787> to be fair, delinquentme has been around here for many years and has been quite productive in the past
15:06 < Urchin> hm...
15:06 < juri_> what nmz said. times are breaking people.
15:07 < nmz787> and he's always been a little like "coffee guy" from Fox's MadTV
15:08 < Urchin> don't know that particular reference
15:10 < nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJn5MrBy1A0
15:11 < nmz787> or this one , he goes off the rails a bit more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU72Qv4cnd4
15:11 < nmz787> .title
15:11 < saxo> Mad TV Coffee Maniac - YouTube
15:14 < fenn> i'm pretty confident that wasn't delinquentme
15:14 < fenn> he lives in oakland last i checked and that IP is in vancouver
15:15 < fenn> and not knowing channel regulars
15:19 < juri_> I wouldn't be surprised if deliquentme didn't recognise me. i usually only talk when topics are in my area of specialty.. and unfortunately, i don't have much bio to me.
15:23 < Urchin> I actually haven't participated much in years
15:23 < fenn> hmm, looking back at logs, maybe i am wrong
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15:27 < fenn> ah well, that's too bad
15:29 < nmz787> also VPNs and stuff
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15:30 < fenn> a VPN that exited from a sprint PCS phone? that makes no sense
15:32 < fenn> anyway, he was ranting about SJW's in 2017
15:35 < Urchin> ranting about SJWs was the trendy thing to do back in 2017
15:38 < archels_> https://stats.ams-ix.net/index.html about 20% more traffic since the outbreak started in western Europe (roughly)
15:40 < fenn> all those zoom 50 person video conferences
15:41 < fenn> you can look bored and texting on your phone in the comfort of your bedroom
15:42 < archels_> any good hangouts/online cafés?
15:43 < nmz787> def him ,he PMed me after on gchat
15:45 < nmz787> archels_: you mean chatrooms?
15:45 < nmz787> I'm in like 14 here on IRC
15:45 < nmz787> in the vacuum hackers discord which is great, and some of the science network discords (they aren't too interesting tho)
15:46 < nmz787> the styropyro discord is kinda a circus, but also relatively low quality
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16:09 < fltrz> fenn, I always assumed that filtration based masks worked like chromatography; consider the typical ink chromatography experiment: the solvent is absorbed into the filter paper the front reaches the dot of ink, the solvent continues up the filter and drags ink particlles of different mobilities up, so I think filters actually work similarily with "solvent" being air, and "solute" the aerosol / particulate matter, a fresh filter will seem to block a
16:09 < fltrz> significant fraction of particles, but at some point the particles reach the other side of the filter paper (a short depth), at which point it must be discarded or cleaned *very* thoroughly
16:11 < fltrz> in chromatography, ink passes the filtration paper upwards just fine, so there is no real filtration efficiency, its a transient effect of the filter paper initially not containing any ink particles, it slows down the ink particles compares to water molecules, and it is the relative speed that is exploited in filters
16:11 < fltrz> so really it is a transient effect, while in the steady state I expect filters to have no actual filtration efficiency
16:12 < fltrz> except they may get totally clogged before reaching steady state transparency for particles
16:14 < fltrz> at least thats my interpretation of filtration based masks to only work for X rated hours, after which the guaranteed filtration efficiency is violated
16:14 < adlai> the word you are seeking is "kinetic", not transient. even under steady flow you'd see the mass flow of ink reduced
16:15 < fltrz> adlai, if you have a chromatography column, and you keep flowing solute at a certain concentration, with enough patience the output stream approaches the same concentration as the input stream right?
16:15  * adlai henceforth will always imagine intro chemistry labs with a clothesline of thoroughly rinsed filter papers hanging up to dry
16:17 < adlai> approaches? yes
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16:19 < fltrz> adlai, like how equilibria are approached, in theory you have to wait for infinite time to pass, but in practice and tolerance for error allows it to happen in a finite (possibly long) amount of time
16:20 < fltrz> adlai, if your perspective on air filters differs, I am certainly open to other interpretations, as they are currently rather interesting of course
16:21 < adlai> i haven't actually tried paralleling "perpetual current in superconductor loop" with a steady-state chromatography column, although i'd be surprised if the theory said that you could reach an equivalent flow: even when all ligand sites are occupied, the mere presence of the resin should exert osmotic pressure against the solute
16:22 < adlai> my perspective on air filters is that you throw them away after use, although this is from training with gas masks, not education about pandemics :)
16:23 < adlai> osmotic pressure is almost the correct concept, although it's more similar to friction than partial pressure
16:23 < adlai> arguably, literally is
16:23 < fltrz> adlai, I agree some solute will adhere to the filter even after an infinite flow of solvent+solute, but this will be a finite amount of solute in the filter, while infinite solvent+solute is passing, hence it asymptotically reaches the same concentration, if the solute adhering to the filter was not finite, this filter would increase in mass and volume indefinitely
16:26 < fltrz> so my view on air filters is similar to chromatic dispersion in optics, some wavelengths travel slower in the medium than others, and for transient pulses of light it can separate the pulse into different wavelengths over time at the output
16:29 < fltrz> if air is the solute for particulate matter in filtration based surgical masks, then it also explains why they should be disposed of in a garbage can with a closed lid, as small currents or temperature gradients or vibrations may redissolve particles in the filter into the air...
16:30 < fltrz> like dunking the whole chromatography paper into solvent
16:31 < adlai> this is why you throw away the used filters, so that you don't have finite and infinite concentrations in the same mass flow estimation
16:31 < fltrz> if you have to dispose of it in solvent and want to keep the solvent clean, then you need a small garbage bin in the solvent so you can close the lid after disposing of the chromatography paper (can't imagine any situation where this is necessary though)
16:33 < fltrz> that said, there could also be a moisture related reason why surgical masks can't be rinsed as fenn was told, I would suspect it to be related to breathability, if breathability of the filter is impaired, more air will pass through the imperfect seal between mask and face
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16:34 < adlai> why not just pour a puddle of solvent into the empty can, as the last stage of the "replace full can with empty" procedure?
16:34 < fltrz> also, there might not be a 1 explanation fits all for different types of masks, if they use different proprietary formulations and designs...
16:35 < fltrz> UV-C LED prices are rising :(
16:37 < adlai> i was sorely tempted to wear a gas mask on my last flight, although somehow i suspect this would mean i'd spend more time in airports than on the plane
16:37 < fltrz> adlai, not so sure about the last part...
16:38 < adlai> what last part? airport security would go nuts over a gas mask
16:38 < adlai> an actual gas mask, not one of those "let's play doctor"
16:38 < fltrz> perhaps the UV-C LEDs will become currency in Mad Max Waterworld endgame
16:39 < fltrz> adlai, I'd think they have seen plenty of those the last few weeks, by rich and poor alike...
16:39 < adlai> how does an efficient UVC LED avoid radiating low wavelengths?
16:40 < fltrz> I'd worry less about the time you won't loose, and more about the mask that will be confiscated "for security reasons"
16:40 < fltrz> adlai, like shorter wavelengths than its design wavelength?
16:40 < fltrz> adlai, it's bandgap
16:41 < fltrz> adlai, or you mean heat?
16:42 < adlai> dunno, somehow a gas mask seems to me like it'd set off all the airport security alarm bells; i've never seen anyone wear a gas mask in air travel, although surgical masks have been ... maybe not common, but it's a fashion that comes back to life every so often
16:42 < fltrz> adlai, your impression would be totally correct... up till a week or so ago I guess
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16:43 < adlai> the question is quite a theoretical question, a more precise statement of it would be "what aspects of those specific materials enable the 'optical' band gap to be so high compared to our familiar maxwell-boltzman sunlight"
16:43 < fltrz> they'd probably give you the misanthropic look for either being or dressing up like a superspreader
16:44 < adlai> you've seen people wearing ~gas~ masks in public?
16:45 < adlai> i don't think i've ever seen someone wearing an actual gas mask who wasn't working with some sort of volatile or aerosol in their immediate proximity
16:45 < fltrz> adlai, thats really quantum mechanics... once can somewhat view a crystal lattice (with or without impurities) as a large orgy of a molecule, think of how covalent bonds is about sharing electrons, then think of the conduction band, shared electrons too
16:46 < fltrz> so the origin of bandgaps etc is similar to the origin of spectra of elements, molecules, ...
16:48 < fltrz> I wouldn't go so far as saying that a piece of metal is a big molecule, but the argument would be a lot easier for single metal grain in that piece of metal, its a single crystal
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16:48 < adlai> still, the mere concept boggles the mind right now, since it's such a drastically different emission profile than the blackbody
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16:49 < fltrz> adlai, yeah black body assumes uniform emissivity
16:50 < fltrz> black body says more about photons than the materials of the walls
16:50 < adlai> regrettably i did not take any solid-state physics class, so these concepts are still quite muddled in my mind
16:50 < fltrz> as long as the walls absorb and reemit light
16:51 < fltrz> adlai, if you refresh your QM with the course you used (I hope you never got rid of it), then you will find studying introductory solid state physics on your own is quite feasible
16:54 < fltrz> adlai, it's somewhat controversial to harbor, but I believe there is something about black body and element spectra that we are glossing over, in the sense that I don't rule out QM to be some day derived from indeterministic classical physics
16:54 < TMA> black body = any incident photon is absorbed, no reflections
16:55 < TMA> then the radiation coming out is determined solely by the temperature of the body
16:55 < fltrz> TMA, yeah but its re-radiated
16:55 < adlai> it essentially is indeterministic classical physics, after a few limits taken that separate parts of the system into frequency bands
16:55 < Urchin> funny, considering it's modeled as a mirror cavity
16:56 < TMA> absorbing a photon raises the energy (therefore the temperature)
16:57 < TMA> emission lines are produced by different process
16:58 < TMA> the electrons in the atom shells have discrete energy levels. jumping to a lower level emits a photon of the energy difference
16:59 < fltrz> "<TMA> absorbing a photon raises the energy (therefore the temperature)" < thats an interesting observation, and was not pointed out in our way of treating the subject of UV catastrophe, ... is there a thermodynamics motivated derivation of black body radiation?
16:59 < TMA> and photon energy is a linear function of its frequency (and indirectly proportional to the wavelength)
17:00 < fltrz> intuitively the cavity wall could de-excite to the ground state emitting the same wavelength as came in, but it might also 1) absorb another photon it previously emitted or 2) decay not to the ground state but an intermediate state
17:00 < TMA> fltrz: there are only two kinds of energy in classical physics: potential and kinetic
17:01 < fltrz> which makes me wonder if one can define an energy level density function that would correspond to BBR
17:01 < TMA> fltrz: and kinetic energy can have the form of temperature (it is the kinetic energy of the random oscilations of constituent particles)
17:01 < fltrz> agree with above
17:03 < fltrz> TMA, the reason I askk is: if there is "natural" energy level density shape that corresponds to BBR, perhaps it allows to explain the fine structure constant
17:03 < adlai> makes more sense to consider photons as potential energy, to avoid the "so what's their mass" pitfall
17:03 < fltrz> when you said "TMA> then the radiation coming out is determined solely by the temperature of the body" does that relate in your mind to a specific derivation, or article, or course note?
17:03 < TMA> also the absorption lines in the star spectra correspond to the inverse of emission lines: the photon gets absorbed to knock the electron up
17:04 < fltrz> crap wrong quote: when you said <TMA> absorbing a photon raises the energy (therefore the temperature) ^
17:04 < TMA> fltrz: the last lecture on it was more than 20 years ago, I cannot pin point a reference
17:04 < fltrz> it's perfectly logical, but we never paid attention to that in our classes
17:07 < fltrz> TMA: suppose you shine short wavelength light in a black body cavity, it will statistically speaking downconvert that light, and if you view the walls as a system that absorbs the photon and is raised in energy, you would expect it to fall back down in one or more steps, which corresponds to downconverting to lower energy photons
17:07 < TMA> adlai: photons are curious beasts -- the rest mass m_0 is exactly zero but they move really fast so their energy is from the movement
17:08 < fltrz> which makes me think there may be a natural / mathematical / dimensionless energy level distribution, such that it predicts BBR spectrum, and constrains fine structure constant
17:08 < TMA> adlai: but then they are not classical at all, so the metaphor breaks down
17:08 < fltrz> TMA I totally agree all energy in a photon is kinetic... unless its locked in between 2 mirrors, then you could argue its potential energy
17:10 < fltrz> if you squeeze the mirrors together the photons will increase in energy
17:11 < fltrz> you will get blue shift, while if you allow the mirrors to be pushed away by radiation force of the photons they will redshift
17:12 < TMA> fltrz: if a photon is absorbed, what happens? there is an interaction with other particle. if you take a quantum view a whole lot of things can happen. you sum over all those and arrive at the result
17:12 < fltrz> yes that is indeed the quantum mechanics picture
17:14 < TMA> but in a bigger view you get the sum of the sums ... that's where it becomes more or less classical, because you cannot possibly be lucky enough so that half your glass of water freezes while the other boils away
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17:15 < TMA> so there is a bunch of particles that are all the same speed on _average_ but each slightly different
17:16 < TMA> and the faster sometimes emit a photon that slows them down
17:16 < TMA> while the slower absorb the photons
17:16 < TMA> and sometimes the slower emit and the faster absorb
17:17 < TMA> sometimes the photon is emited in a direction towards the outside
17:17 < TMA> that's the black body radiation
17:19  * adlai always had the impression that variance around the root-mean-square velocity was considerable, in a typical solid
17:20 < adlai> mean KE might be a better concept to think of, although the RMS velocity was often the endpoint of these calculations when i learned them in the QM course
17:20 < fltrz> TMA, do you consider it possible that someday somebody combines Maxwell equations, relativity and quantization of charge and comes up with planck's constant and QM as a derivation in terms of these concepts?
17:21 < fltrz> if it happens everybody will facepalm looking back on "shut up and calculate"
17:21 < TMA> and as the particles are not all the same speed the photons are not the same wavelenght either (while there are shenanigans that allow you to emit more energy than you have by borrowing it elsewhere such as particles traveling backward in time, they can be safely ignored for the electromagnetic interaction)
17:22 < TMA> fltrz: I am not knowledgeable enough to be able to make an educated guess
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17:23 < adlai> why should quantization of charge be necessary a-priori? it could emerge from a different quantization, and isn't the most encompassing quantization a coarsification of the topology?
17:23 < fltrz> this type of conversation was not possible in ##physics, at least not 10 years ago
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17:24 < TMA> adlai: you had taken a QM course? you are an expert in comparison with me
17:24  * adlai completed ~half of an undergraduate chemistry degree
17:25 < fltrz> adlai, I also think particles are topological defects in spacetime (if that is what you mean, like charge without charge, and mass without mass, wheeler style)
17:25  * TMA has only high school physics course and some scant reading of popular explanations (arguably good explanations by Feynman and Einstein)
17:26 < adlai> this included "a QM course", although it was nowhere near as rigorous as what physics students learn, since it was taught in parallel to the requisite mathematics, whereas the physics department here does not teach QM to freshmen
17:26 < fltrz> yeah we only saw introduction to QM in the second year of physics, and then full QM course in 3rd year
17:27 < fltrz> well there was also the subatomic physics course
17:27 < fltrz> *atomic and molecular physics course
17:27 < fltrz> which also really complemented the QM courses
17:28 < adlai> my more illustrious enrollment was a followup course that actually did demand a fairly solid understanding of QM, although i failed that class catastrophically
17:28  * TMA needs to sleep, nice talkung to you
17:28 < adlai> goodnight
17:29 < fltrz> adlai, right now we see quantization of charge (electron charge), and angular momentum (planck constant), and they are related among other things by Planck's constant, where it is an experimental value, but I believe someday it will turn out to be a mathematical value (the fine structure constant)
17:29 < fltrz> goodnight!
17:30 < adlai> incidentally, the approximate answer to my badly-worded question seemed to be "you're more likely to find such band structures in covalent crystals", although apparently the concept of "covalent crystals" existed purely in my mind and is not as rigorously defined as imagined to be.
17:31 < fltrz> so that would be a rather large breakthrough, but I don't see how we could find an objective quantization for charge yet...
17:31 < adlai> by "mathematical value", do you mean a number from within some countable designation, rather than just a dimensionless number?
17:32 < fltrz> adlai, if you look at the math, and ignore the jargon, its really the same thing: in context of molecules we speak of covalent bonds, in context of crystal band structure we speak of valence and conduction bands
17:32 < adlai> no, they are not the same things
17:33 < fltrz> adlai, I mean a dimensionless number, but with mathematical significance
17:33 < adlai> they are ranges of energies, but the similarities end quite early on
17:34 < fltrz> in a covalent bond electrons are shared, in conduction band electrons are shared, but contrary to molecules its not a small defined set of atoms, but a large collective of atoms for crystals, so the discrete orbitals become bands of dense energy levels
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17:37 < adlai> my insistence that this is more than a jargon difference stems from the fact that bands only emerge when you have a large enough crystal to consider only the bulk
17:38 < fltrz> solid state physics is like adding extra simplifying assumptions to make tractable QM calculations for large numbers of atoms, so the molecule is kept as simple as possible: regular host lattice, few impurities, ...
17:38 < fltrz> adlai, that is true
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17:39 < adlai> you could be sneaky and say that the most fundamental concept is the crystal, and that the single-atom case is just an infinitely sparse crystal, but i don't think anyone wants to go there
17:39 < fltrz> if you pinch of a couple of atoms of cupric oxide, you are left with cupric oxide molecule
17:40 < fltrz> we are saying the same thing :)
17:41 < adlai> i don't think i had any appreciable understanding of QM until ~halfway through the second course
17:42 < adlai> the second course was called "quantum chemistry" and aimed to teach up to, and including, density functional theory; although i honestly doubt that a significant number of students who pass that class could solve any problem from variational calculus
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17:43 < fltrz> DFT is very interesting yup
17:43 < adlai> (we were taught how to read variational equations, and saw a few proofs, but it wasn't a math class)
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17:46 < fltrz> oh shit I really don't want David Hestenes to pass away during Cor
17:46 < fltrz> coronacrisis, I still didn't write out the text I want him to read
17:47 < fltrz> well at least I know what I have to do during my lockdown
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