--- Log opened Fri Mar 27 00:00:35 2020
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06:26 < kanzure> hmph
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07:58 < ptrcmd> why does it take months to produce stable cell lines for monoclonals?
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08:19 < kanzure> that sounds like a yashgaroth question
08:21 < yashgaroth> first you transfect a bunch of cells with your plasmid that expresses the antibody gene, then you wait for the cells to recover from being violated, then you wait for the ones that don't have the plasmid to die off; after that, each individual cell expresses wildly different amounts of antibody depending on how many copies of plasmid they received, and where the plasmids integrate into its genome
08:21 < yashgaroth> so you need to separate each cell out into an individual chamber or well, after which they divide once every 24 hours or so
08:22 < ptrcmd> is it easy to scale production of the antibody once you get stable cell lines?
08:22 < yashgaroth> after each individual cell has divided enough times to produce a decently-sized colony, you can begin to get an idea of how much antibody they produce, and you pick the one that will produce 20g/L over one that produces 200mg/L
08:23 < yashgaroth> again, a cell divides once every 24 hours, so if you ship 1 mL of cells to a producer you can do the math on how long it takes to reach 10,000L which is on the low end for such a facility
08:24 < yashgaroth> as cells divide they gradually lose viability, so from a master cell bank you are growing up from a few mLs of cells every time; you can't simply keep harvesting 5,000L off of the bioreactor every time the cells double
08:24 < fenn> is there a way to produce antibody-like proteins in yeast instead?
08:25 < yashgaroth> yes but there are still concerns with non-human glycosylation that haven't been adequately solved; might be less of an issue for short-term therapeutics vs. a drug people will be on for years; and the yield from mammalian has been heavily optimized over the past few years so yeast are even less worth the hassle
08:26 < ptrcmd> yashgaroth: because there aren't efficient ways to just kill off cells that can't produce the right antibody?
08:26 < ptrcmd> yashgaroth: (why cell lines gradually lose viability)
08:27 < fenn> they lose viability because of telomere shortening (i think)
08:27 < fenn> .wik hayflick limit
08:27 < saxo> "The Hayflick limit, or Hayflick phenomenon, is the number of times a normal human cell population will divide before cell division stops. /  The concept of the Hayflick limit was advanced by American anatomist Leonard Hayflick in 1961, at the Wistar Institute in [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayflick_limit
08:27 < yashgaroth> no that's just life, generally cell lines are thrown out after ~30-40 passages as they just start generally sucking
08:27 < ptrcmd> fenn: but there are immortalized cell lines
08:27 < yashgaroth> nah producer cell lines like 293 and CHO are immortalized
08:27 < fenn> ok nm
08:28 < yashgaroth> but telomeres aren't the only thing that degrade over time and harm the cells, despite the claims of some immortalists
08:29 < ptrcmd> what are the other things that gradually degrade?
08:30 < yashgaroth> anyway, once you have a few liters of a master cell bank, you can scale up relatively easily - the problem is that nearly all biomanufacturing capacity is taken up by drugs that save a lot more human-years per gram than a prophylactic against a disease with a 1% CFR
08:30 < yashgaroth> man I don't know, the cells just lose the will to live, they divide slower, they die more often and leak their guts into the bioreactor, they produce less protein in general
08:31 < kanzure> accumulation of genetic errors, cancer, runaway metabolism, misfolding errors, prions
08:31 < kanzure> various cellular diseases that we don't know how to identify yet
08:31 < fenn> i wonder if "fasting" could help regenerate depressed cells' "will to live"
08:32 < yashgaroth> the hayflick limit isn't just there to keep us from ~immortality~, it's because biology recognizes that cells can't just keep dividing forever in most cases, so the cells lose their telomeres and die/senesce before worse stuff happens
08:32 < delinquentme> The litmust test on that is whether the genome of something like a HELA line has been sequenced and how far mutated current strains are vrs the original genome
08:32 < ptrcmd> but then people are able to reproduce..
08:32 < delinquentme> but clearly we have legitimately immortal cell lines
08:33 < yashgaroth> look I don't design the upstream antibody processes, I just practice them; there's exceptions for germ cells and whatnot
08:33 < delinquentme> "it's because biology recognizes that cells can't just keep dividing forever in most cases"
08:33 < delinquentme> IDK what this means.
08:33 < kanzure> growth limits
08:33 < delinquentme> and it seems invalidated by my above statements
08:34 < delinquentme> IF (immortal lines == true) then
08:34 < yashgaroth> the body uses telomere degradation as an hourglass on cell division
08:34 < yashgaroth> yeah welcome to biology
08:34 < delinquentme> No but im saying the statement is incorrect.
08:34 < fenn> biology is not computer code
08:34 < delinquentme> and it must be, because we have HELA lines.
08:34 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa#New_species_proposal
08:34 < delinquentme> that doesnt add anything useful to the convo here fenn
08:35 < ptrcmd> yeah I was also thinking of HeLa
08:35 < yashgaroth> shit you're right, go file for your nobel prize
08:35 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, dont be bitter bro
08:35 < delinquentme> lol
08:35 < delinquentme> Like im just pointing out that theres glaring thought-experiment contradictions in your claims.
08:35 < delinquentme> Or go get mad hahaha
08:35 < kanzure> wait i've lost the plot: who is mad?
08:35 < ptrcmd> please don't go mad >_>
08:36 < delinquentme> file under: "Shit scientists say when they lose arguments"
08:36 < yashgaroth> then they're glaring contradictions in human understanding of biology dude, I'm not arguing them I'm just stating them
08:36 < kanzure> delinquentme: behave yourself or ban
08:36 < kanzure> delinquentme: this is your only warning.
08:36 < delinquentme> kanzure, im just poking the sjws
08:36 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
08:36 < delinquentme> <33
08:36 <@kanzure> there are no SJWs here other than maybe juri_
08:36 <@kanzure> but it's unclear to me
08:36 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, this isnt about contradictions
08:36 < delinquentme> like tell me what is incorrect about the statement that "HELA cells are immortal"
08:37 < yashgaroth> yep hela cells are functionally immortal
08:37 < delinquentme> If they ARE immortal, then we have a clear instance of an immortalized cell line which doesnt "just stop working bc biology"
08:37 < yashgaroth> yep
08:37 < delinquentme> hence why im saying, theres an obvious contradiction in what youre saying.
08:37 < yashgaroth> yep
08:38 < delinquentme> Its either "cells cant possibly be immortal" or "we have working instances of immortalized cell lines and immortal cell lines arent outside the realms of physics bound biology"
08:38 < delinquentme> kanzure, he mad. lol
08:38 < fenn> things that contribute to reproductive fitness for a single cell tissue culture, are not necessarily good and fit for a multicellular organism
08:39 < yashgaroth> it's biology not physics, I don't claim to write the rules
08:39 < delinquentme> SO. Either one of those statements are true. And because we have evidence for the truthiness of one of the claims, we know which is true.
08:39 < yashgaroth> there are always exceptions to rules in biology
08:39 < delinquentme> true, fenn but were not talking about multicellular rn.
08:39 < ptrcmd> umm, why not just transfect the HeLa cells?
08:39 < fenn> for example, reproducing as fast as possible, dropping chromosomes, not activating apoptosis
08:40 < yashgaroth> except we are because all these cell lines derive from multicellular organisms
08:40 < fenn> delinquentme: those mechanisms are still present in most cell lines
08:40 < yashgaroth> ptrcmd, hela cells can't really be coaxed into producing much protein, and are metabolically inefficient (being cancer cells)
08:41 < yashgaroth> also their genomes are unstable so if you integrate an expression plasmid in there, it probably won't last long
08:41 < delinquentme> I missed the original question re what were doing w cells other than something about division times + antibodies + transfection
08:42 < ptrcmd> yashgaroth: hmm.. why are the hela cells metabolically inefficient?
08:42 < fenn> not using oxidative metabolism
08:42 < delinquentme> Right so thats kind of the strongest claim Ive seen re non immortal HELA... is that if their genome isnt anything like 5 generations prior... thats not very useful in the context of immortal cells
08:42 < yashgaroth> the same reason all cancer cells are, their mitochondria are malfunctioning or inactive so they have to rely on glycolysis
08:43 < ptrcmd> Oh..
08:43 < fenn> 07:58 < ptrcmd> why does it take months to produce stable cell lines for monoclonals?
08:43 < delinquentme> but then I imagine lobsters / jellyfish / clams have fairly stable lines so maybe ( not that I know shit about it ) those are a step in the direction of legit, genomic-stable immortal cells
08:44 < fenn> probably responding to "If we really are in an exponential phase, transfusions from the recovered couldn't possibly help most people.  It's one of these old hacks that clinicians love but that end up being hugely difficult logistically to scale up to treat a larger population. We know how to mass-produce Abs.  It's just that it's normally a many-year testing and approval process... but if your
08:44 < fenn> safety benchmark is injecting some rando's plasma, why don't we fast track the hell out of anti-sars-cov-2 biologics?"
08:45 < delinquentme> I mean if someone has the cell line + is growing them LMK
08:45 < delinquentme> Ive got the purification machine sitting next to me rn
08:47 < delinquentme> yashgaroth,  are you a legit SJW? kanzure  wont tell me
08:47 < delinquentme> Im just curious like how deep the hole goes.
08:47 < delinquentme> I know youre a biologist so thats kinda a step in the questionable direction
08:48 < yashgaroth> hahaha wtf
08:48 < delinquentme> im just asking man
08:49 < fenn> you're embarrassing yourself now
08:49 < delinquentme> fenn i know youre a sjw hahaha
08:49 < fenn> -_-
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08:49 < delinquentme> Im just curious about the ppl who i kinda associate w here
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08:50 < srk> :D
08:50 <@kanzure> delinquentme: the only keyboard warrior in here has been you
08:50 < ptrcmd> kanzure++
08:50 < fenn> if you can't tell someone's political stance by their words, then what's the point
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09:22 < nmz787> ptrcmd: it takes months to make a stable cell line for monoclonal expression cause humans get tires
09:22 < nmz787> tired*
09:22  * nmz787 has made them in a class once
09:24 < nmz787> ptrcmd: also I didn't start with an antibody plasmid, rather, I just injected a mouse with the antigen and let it's immune system do all the work
10:58 < juri_> wow. what's with that guy lately?
10:59 < kanzure> rough home life?
10:59 < kanzure> maybe it's the quarantine driving him mad
10:59 < juri_> plague is doing funny things to all of us.
10:59 < juri_> I hope he recovers.
10:59 < juri_> we need everyone.
11:01 < juri_> I'm just getting back to my 'normal' here. it's been a rough stretch, lately.
11:11 < kanzure> expression of sentiment that it would generally be preferable if we didn't all die
11:44 < superkuh> How long does a non-aerosolized, just normal human cough/sneeze/breath water particle with sars-cov-2 lasted suspended in air of "normal" humidity. Does anyone know?
11:57 < fltrz> superkuh, thats terminal velocity for droplets
11:58 < superkuh> It turns out ~95% of all cough droplets are under <1 micron in size.
11:58 < superkuh> And with sars-cov-2 studies those aerosols generated <5 micron last in air for beyond 3 hours.
11:58 < superkuh> https://doi.org/10.1186/1471-2466-12-11 https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217
11:59 < fltrz> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosol#Terminal_velocity_of_a_particle_in_a_fluid
12:02 < fltrz> superkuh, not sure how applicable cough droplets of healthy individuals are, as diseases often seem to modulate viscosity of different types of mucus...
12:02 < superkuh> I don't understand how what you are talking about is applicable.
12:03 < fltrz> also, coughs vs sneezes, vs mucous on vocal chords, ...
12:03 < superkuh> Anyway, I found my answer. And it's bad.
12:03 < fltrz> yup its bad
12:05 < fltrz> superkuh, without a known lower limit on droplet size (apart from viral particle size as an extremal value) there is no sensible settling time...
12:05 < fltrz> as smaller particles remain suspended longer
12:07 < fltrz> suppose I sneeze on a page of paper, a medium size droplet with high viral load, then 10 minutes later the moisture is gone, then I close the book, or pick up the page to place it somewhere, now we're launching a huge load of aerosol in the air...
12:10 < fltrz> hence the "its not an aerosol" propaganda, "but throw your coronavirus sneeze tissues in a bin with a lid", not sure how the lid helps, because simply opening / closing or removing and replacing the lid circulates air
12:11 < fltrz> people running after the garbage collection car are constanly watching balloons of corona getting popped flat, and smelling the garbage... and corona
12:12 < fltrz> "but they didn't study so they shouldn't be treated with respect"
12:14 < fltrz> also settling time can easily double or triple in some settings, if people are working in an tall room with multiple levels, bridges, balconies,...
12:14 < fltrz> but especially with circulating air the droplets are constantly agitated and rise with air currents...
12:16 < ptrcmd> are the phopholipid layers of enveloped virues stable in dry conditions?
12:16 < ptrcmd> *phospholipid
12:17 < fltrz> what were the original fomites or vectors in nature besides the hosting species? I believe it's mostly plant leaves: from trees to brushes to grass blades, they all rustle in the wind after a particle hypothetically settles on it, so it gets launched back up
12:17 < ptrcmd> if the phospholipid layers are not stable under dry conditions, the eveloped viruses would lose there viability right?
12:18 < ptrcmd> under dry conditions
12:18 < ptrcmd> (eg. "when the misture is gone")
12:18 < ptrcmd> sorry
12:18 < ptrcmd> (eg. "when the moisture is gone")
12:18 < fltrz> ptrcmd, I suspect there is always some osmosis holding a minimum of water,... the viral particles can't just contain the RNA as it has a minimum bending radius, and I don't believe its vacuum ...
12:19 < fltrz> but I did not measure or verify my suspicion
12:19 < fenn> here the garbage truck driver just went by wearing a N95
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12:20 < fltrz> fenn, thats good
12:20 < fenn> ptrcmd it depends on the roughness of the surface they dried on
12:20 < fenn> as for aerosol particles, i have no idea
12:21 < fenn> on a rough surface such as a kleenex tissue or paper, the surface tension will pull the viral particle apart as it dries
12:21 < fltrz> fenn, that is good news
12:22 < fltrz> fenn, is this a prediction? or has it been verified with some modality?
12:22 < ptrcmd> I want to know that too~
12:23 < fenn> it's somewhat supported by the half lives on cardboard vs steel or plastic
12:24 < fltrz> fenn, so if I have a droplet with a viral load of 10^6 = ~2^20, does that mean that after 19 half lives you still could get infected?
12:24 < fenn> i got it from this article by palli thordarson https://virologydownunder.com/why-does-soap-work-so-well-on-sars-cov-2/
12:25 < fenn> fltrz i have no idea
12:25 < fltrz> because thats what half lives usually mean
12:25 < fenn> if you look at the graphs they are not linear on a log plot
12:25 < fltrz> oh ok
12:25 < fenn> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v2.full.pdf
12:26 < fenn> on the last page
12:27 < fenn> i am wondering why the detection limit was so much higher for the copper sample
12:27 < fltrz> fenn, looks perfectly linear to me, its just that it stops at the detection limit...
12:29 < fenn> sure, for the copper one
12:29 < fltrz> as in for all cases
12:29 < fenn> steel and plastic have a noticeable curve
12:30 < fenn> another fact that seems to have gotten lost in the noise is that the titer starts at a lower value for cardboard
12:30 < fltrz> doesn't look like 6 sigma deviation from hypothesis of straight line
12:31 < fenn> well make of it what you will
12:32 < fltrz> looks like normal half life behaviour with detection limit to me...
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13:11 < nmz787> ptrcmd: yes, virii are stable once lyophilized (freeze dried)
13:15 < ptrcmd> hmm..
13:25 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/davidrliu/status/1243377007016251400?s=20
13:25 < saxo> Study of 206 monoclonal antibodies against #SARSCoV2 isolated from 8 #COVID19 patients. Some antibody clones are highly effective at neutralizing live SARS-CoV-2 virus in cells, suggesting that we now know human antibody sequences that would be effective COVID-19 drugs. (1/2) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUFbpkFWkAAekvk.png (@davidrliu)
13:43 < fenn> paper from the above tweet https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.21.990770v1.full.pdf
13:43 < fenn> patient #2 survived
13:44 < fenn> i wonder if patients #1 and #2 were married
13:45 < fenn> male and female, same age, same admission date (jan 11) and there werent many cases back then
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13:47 < future> guys
13:47 < future> hello
13:48 < fenn> state your quest
13:51 < future> I want resources for brain and computer interaction.
13:51 < future> am i at the right place ?
13:52 < nmz787> sure
13:52 < nmz787> we definitely want that tech last decade
13:52 < nmz787> actually, like 3 decades ago for me
13:53 < future> yes this will be very useful
13:54 < future> elon musk started before us
13:54 < future> :D
13:55 < future> + biotech
13:55 < future> then we fly
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14:21 < fltrz> fenn, how do they go from protein to sequence? or they first have to determine crystal structure and reverse engineer sequence through that?
14:21 < fltrz> future, we already ordered it, but its not arrived yet
14:22 < fltrz> future, if you want you can try the FOS if you believe in it,... if it doesn't work at least you've got a good cybergoth outfit for the year of coronavirus
14:23 < future> oh really how will you use
14:23 < future> okey :D
14:24 < fltrz> future, google "fast optical signal" imaging brain waves through skull with infrared
14:25 < future> oh okey thanks
14:25 < future> ı looking
14:25 < fltrz> future, essentially modulating IR led of proper wavelength at ~100MHz (perhaps it was less or more) and watching the phase of the response through a photodiode drift with respect to exictation phase, this minute variation in phase supposedly corresponds to fast brain activity as opposed to oxygenation
14:26 < fltrz> future, so if you have say 10 independent sources (using coding or perhaps different modulation frequency), and 10 different detectors, you get 10 x 10 = 100 channels
14:26 < future> fltrz, is this like helmet
14:27 < fltrz> future, yup
14:27 < future> yes ı get it
14:27 < fltrz> it comes without the bionic arm typically
14:27 < fltrz> those are on ebay
14:28 < fltrz> at least we ordered one, still didnt arrive
14:29 < future> have i done anything before
14:29 < future> old project
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14:34 < future> is it possible to teach something to the brain
14:34 < future> like neurolink
14:35 < fltrz> I believe that would require high bandwidth both to and from the brain, with useful ML at the computer side to allow a "conversation"
14:36 < docl> so let's say I want to be immune without catching the virus. would it be possible to take a lymph node biopsy, stick it in a bioreactor with the virus, and make a bunch of antibodies that way?
14:36 < future> of course yeah
14:37 < fltrz> so I think you can get a decent bandwidth with audio, since the frequency bins stay aligned, while a screen may have higher information density I believe visual will be more taxing because you can't have neurons close to retina perform error correction, because eyeballs move and blur high information density image
14:38 < future> CS and Biotech should run together
14:38 < future> maybe
14:39 < fltrz> I still just want to snort large amount of UV-C radiated coronavirus, and gradually lower the UV-C dose so the RNA / proteins are less and less damaged
14:40 < future> yeah good idea
14:40 < docl> nice
14:41 < future> well nano robots
14:41 < future> are they working
14:41  * docl wonders if my suggestion betrays a deep misunderstanding about immunology
14:41 < fltrz> docl, I suspect you know more about immunology than I do
14:42 < future> for example
14:43 < future> ı dont know
14:43 < docl> I'm just reasoning from general principles here, not all that educated on the topic.
14:43 < fltrz> whats the half life of CV in coke? perhaps just beg for snot at the hospital, and cut it up with coke, and then snort the batches at shorter and shorter time intervals since preparation
14:44 < fltrz> if Im getting a darwin award, I'm gettin one in style
14:45 < docl> hanson has been speculating about variolation (low dose innoculation that gives the body a bit more time to form an immune response, something they used against smallpox in the pre-vaccine days)
14:45 < docl> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2020/03/know-when-to-fold-em.html
14:45 < future> oh perfect man so darwin award
14:46 < fltrz> docl, huh, I'd be very ware of first contact with active viral particles, even in small particles,... I mean they could go viral in your body...
14:46 < fltrz> *wary
14:46 < kanzure> future: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/
14:47 < docl> honestly, I think I have the virus right now. Hoping to get an antibody test in a few weeks to see.
14:48 < fltrz> docl, I also think I have it, but its quite ok for now, but I could just be more aware of smoking issues, or simply have something else...
14:49 < docl> I've been fully isolated for two weeks, had some symptoms the week prior though. There were no known cases in my area at that time, but two weeks ago I rode lyft with a guy whose gf works at a hospital, and he had a hoarse voice.
14:49 < fltrz> docl, the moment in the car where you know your getting screwed but are to polite to stop it from happening?
14:50 < yashgaroth> docl I'm sure there's a way to do uh, out-of-body vaccination as you ask but definitely not right now...your white blood cells still need to receive inflammatory signals from elsewhere in the body, and especially to be able to react to infected cells that are presenting antigen fragments on their surface - which free-floating virus won't do
14:50 < future> thanks kanzure it is great
14:51 < docl> so you would need several biopsies of different sites (lung, e.g)?
14:52 < yashgaroth> ehh keeping a bunch of different tissues happy and functional in a bioreactor isn't really possible atm, especially when some of them are dying to a virus - not just lung and lymph, for example you'd need a liver to help process the dead cell tissue
14:52 < fenn> fltrz i think it's a western blot followed by protein sequencer
14:52 < fenn> no crystal structure
14:53 < fltrz> fenn, huh I guess I always skipped the protein sequencer subject before
14:54 < kanzure> pretty sure it's just protein denaturation and amino acid sequencing
14:54 < fenn> it's old tech rarely used anymore
14:54 < fenn> DNA sequencing is so much easier
14:54 < kanzure> although there's some weird nanopore tech involving feeding a protein through a nanopore to sequence it
14:55 < fenn> oh, since it's monoclonal they might just do DNA sequencing
14:55  * fenn shrugs
14:55 < fltrz> "The misincorporation of low levels of non-standard amino acids (e.g. norleucine) into proteins may also be determined" never knew about norleucine
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14:55 < kanzure> non-standard amino acids are also useful in directed evolution selection projects for enhanced protein activity
14:55 < kanzure> increases the state space to explore
14:56 < fltrz> are there organisms which can "protease" protein into a corresponding RNA? like reverse transcriptase can convert RNA to DNA?
14:57 < kanzure> i'd doubt it
14:57 < yashgaroth> no
14:59 < fltrz> protease happens where in the human body? the stomach? the intestines?
14:59 < fltrz> or all cells?
14:59 < docl> maybe removing the dead cells can be done mechanically or chemically? since we are dealing with small samples in a solution, not whole organs. they would lose sodium-potassium pumping activity as they die.
15:00 < fenn> docl: take zinc, vitamin D, and eat red onions and capers (and/or get some quercetin and EGCG supplements)
15:00 < yashgaroth> proteolysis happens in all cells except maybe red blood cells
15:00 < yashgaroth> docl that's just one of the functions we can't replicate in vitro at the moment, there's several more and growing biopsy tissue in culture is rather difficult especially on short timescales and for reasonable cost
15:01 < fltrz> yashgaroth, so theres this huge amount of random protein fragments in each cell?
15:01 < yashgaroth> no, proteins are degraded down to amino acids after being cleaved into peptides
15:01 < fenn> oh and maybe resveratrol/red wine
15:02 < fltrz> yashgaroth, ok, but I dont think all peptide bonds of the protein are cleaved at the same time
15:02 < fltrz> so theres fragments while the process occurs right?
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15:02 < yashgaroth> sure
15:03 < fltrz> yashgaroth, does this happen in a dedicated vacuole or the normal cell plasm?
15:03 < yashgaroth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteasome
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15:04 < fltrz> yashgaroth, I was also wondering if the stomach contains hydrochloric acid and bunch of enzymes, that already denature proteins, how are the stomach and later intestine linings protected from undergoing what the food is undergoing?
15:04 < yashgaroth> the awesome power of mucus
15:04 < fltrz> ok, so its not like alcahest
15:05 < yashgaroth> Alcahest is an action game with a top-down perspective that plays similar to The Legend of Zelda ?
15:05 < fltrz> yashgaroth, the mucus is hydrophobic or smth?
15:05 < fenn> the acid is neutralized by bile, which is alkaline
15:05 < fltrz> yashgaroth, alcahest is a hypothetical substance according to early chemists, that would dissolve any substance into its elemental components
15:06 < fltrz> * early chemists / alchemists
15:06 < yashgaroth> oh alkahest
15:06 < fltrz> ah yea my bad
15:06  * fltrz brushes up his alchemy
15:07 < yashgaroth> .title https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-dont-our-digestive-ac/
15:07 < saxo> Why don't our digestive acids corrode our stomach linings? - Scientific American
15:09 < jrayhawk> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15765412 the mucous can withstand hours of acid perfusion testing in the esophagus, as well
15:10 < docl> fenn: I don't have any of those things on hand currently. I've been taking mucinex regularly to try and keep from too much lung mucous. also been taking garlic and regular onions, drinking plenty of water, and staying warm.
15:10 < docl> symptoms have been fairly mild thus far, although I do feel something in my lungs.
15:11 < fltrz> yashgaroth, thanks, thats neat, the proenzymes undergo a controlled digestion after which they become active
15:12 < yashgaroth> mhm
15:12 < fltrz> which was kind of what I was wondering, if digestive fragments of protein could play a role
15:12 < fltrz> like an active role
15:13 < fltrz> this also may mean that lots of mechanisms are potentially way more complex than central dogma again
15:13 < fltrz> central dogma is like standard model in physics in my view
15:14 < fltrz> a reference point for communication
15:25 < yashgaroth> the central dogma isn't as all-encompassing as the standard model, it's more like a e.g. Faraday's law in biology
15:27 < yashgaroth> I would bet quite a lot of money that there is no existing natural mechanism to translate proteins back into DNA or RNA, and a somewhat smaller (but still substantial) amount that there's no mechanism for DNA to be translated directly into protein
15:39 < fltrz> yashgaroth, how does the proenzyme get so reliably split?
15:39 < fltrz> binding affinity?
15:40 < yashgaroth> either a conformational change upon exposure to low pH that causes it to cleave itself, or a protease that's already there cleaves it, fuck if I remember which
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18:50 < kanzure> hmph
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