--- Log opened Sat Mar 28 00:00:35 2020
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11:41 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=128b3302 Michael Folkson: Add Andrew Chow transcript on hardware wallets >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/london-bitcoin-devs/2020-02-05-andrew-chow-hardware-wallets/
11:41 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d84477e7 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #83 from michaelfolkson/add-andrew-chow-hardware >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
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11:52 < lsneff> Just got one of those new ipads. Really beautiful hardware, shame that the it doesn't expose any ability to run a real terminal on it.
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12:04 < fenn> or any other software that's not approved by China
12:05 < fenn> it's not like you own it or anything
12:09 < lsneff> Well, I can sideload stuff onto it if I want
12:10 < lsneff> They can even do jit if I'm careful, but some sys calls are restricted
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13:55 < fenn> yes they use triphosphate nucleotides for PCR so my mung bean nuclease idea would not have worked
13:55 < fenn> s/yes//
13:56 < docl> "Nicotine is a nonselective agonist of the α7Ach receptor and is able to suppress the production of proinflammatory cytokines by mimicking the binding of acetylcholine. It has been demonstrated that nicotine can selectively reduce the inflammatory response in a number of infection scenarios, including Legionella pneumophila (54) and Chlamydia pneumoniae (55) infection; however, it is highly unlikely t
13:56 < docl> hat nicotine will ever be used clinically due to its toxicity, addictive nature, and lack of specificity."
13:56 < docl> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3592351/
13:57 < docl> I've been chewing nicotine gum more than I used to, while I have (what I think is) covid19. Not sure whether it helps or hurts.
13:57 < fenn> probably better than vaping
13:57 < docl> true
13:59 < fenn> are mail order tests a thing yet?
14:01 < fenn> knowing for certain that you had it will be very useful once you recover
14:02 < fenn> you should take a Q tip and stick it all the way up your nose and keep it in a plastic bag for later
14:07 < docl> there's a thought
14:07 < docl> maybe an antibody test will be able to show that I've had it?
14:08 < docl> once I'm sure I'm no longer infectious, it could be good to donate plasma
14:10 < docl> I'm curious whether the nicotine is making it take longer to clear up, or maybe preventing it from being as severe (perhaps both)
14:11 < docl> people are saying not to take NSAIDs, but they say that about everything. I've been avoiding aspirin just in case.
14:13 < fenn> ask fltrz
14:13 < fenn> there's no evidence that NSAIDs do anything especially harmful
14:14 < docl> there's some debate about how nicotine affects ace2, judging by the comments here: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202002.0051/v1
14:15 < fenn> preprints.org, haven't seen that one before
14:15 < docl> looks like they are saying nicotine on its own (what I'm taking) downregulates ace2, but smoking upregulates it due to L-Tyrosine
14:17 < docl> (ace2 is what sars viruses apparently attach to in the lungs)
14:17 < fltrz> dunno
14:17 < fenn> fltrz you said recent tobacco quitters did worse with covid19, got a link for that handy?
14:18 < fltrz> WHO aint sharing dataset, Chinese doctor of the study dont answer for the precise age breakdown of the ex-smoker worse than smoker statistics
14:18 < fltrz> 2 seconds
14:18 < docl> maybe the best thing is to switch from tobacco to a cessation aid like gum or patch
14:19 < docl> vaping has its own set of downsides, apparently caused by the fluids not the nicotine itself, lemme dig up the source on that
14:20 < docl> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326336
14:21 < docl> However, the researchers were surprised to learn that the mice exposed to the vaping solvents that lacked nicotine also had damage to their lungs.
14:21 < docl> Although it was not the same type of damage they observed in the tobacco smoke-exposed mice, it was still a significant finding. Although there was no emphysema-like illness present, the researchers discovered an abnormal buildup of lipids in the lungs.
14:21 < docl> This fatty buildup was not exactly from the vaping solvents themselves or any oils present in the fluids. Instead, what occurred was an “abnormal turnover of the protective fluid layer in the lungs.”
14:22 < docl> https://www.jci.org/articles/view/128531
14:22 < fenn> which solvents?
14:22 < fenn> ah PG/VG
14:23 < docl> "Here, we show that compared with smoke exposure, mice receiving ENDS vapor for 4 months failed to develop pulmonary inflammation or emphysema. However, ENDS exposure, independent of nicotine, altered lung lipid homeostasis in alveolar macrophages and epithelial cells. Comprehensive lipidomic and structural analyses of the lungs revealed aberrant phospholipids in alveolar macrophages and increased surf
14:23 < docl> actant-associated phospholipids in the airway. In addition to ENDS-induced lipid deposition, chronic ENDS vapor exposure downregulated innate immunity against viral pathogens in resident macrophages."
14:25 < fltrz> https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974
14:25 < fltrz> Clinical characteristics of 2019 novel coronavirus infection in China
14:25 < fltrz> p21: severe / non-severe ratios for: non-smoker 134/927 (14.45%) smoker 29/137 (21.16%) ex-smoker 9/21 (42.86%)
14:25 < fltrz> Since there is no age breakdown we don't know whether to quit or not: perhaps ex-smokers tend to be a lot older, and thus more vulnerable; perhaps current smokers are used to low oxygen levels? ACE2? could be anything, all we need is the age breakdown of statistics like above...
14:27 < fltrz> its also unclear to what they had unprepared openloop triage
14:28 < fenn> ace2 shenanigans seems most likely
14:31 < fltrz> if you look at the statistics they calculate (as opposed to the ones I recalculate) they calculate i.e. probability of being a smoker given it was a severe case P( Smoker | Severe ), while I calculate probability of passing severe state given being smoker P( Severe | Smoker ). There is 1 really useful case to report the statistics like they did: IF IF IF the statistics were generated WITHOUT triage, they can be used to inform future triage; if
14:31 < fltrz> triage is being done WHILE collecting these statistics you get openloop neglect: this old ex-smoker makes no chance -> triage away -> severe -> death -> increased pessimism about the ex-smoker group -> vicious circle
14:32 < fltrz> I hope its not this type of mistake in italy spain etc
14:33 < fltrz> positive feedback is self fullfilling prophecy
14:33 < fenn> right
14:33 < fltrz> I meant positive feedback instead of openloop, positive feedback is worse than open loop
14:36 < fltrz> really there should be some open source triage assisting software so the triage statistics are calculated from previous results to prevent this positive feedback thing
14:36 < fltrz> so you can use the data while it happens
14:36 < fenn> docl eat beef if you got it
14:38 < fenn> with deliveries jammed up and the supply chain all out of whack it's hard to know what interventions are even possible
14:38 < fltrz> so the equivalent of the feedback resistor parameter for negative (stable) feedback would be to take something like the geometric mean between the incoming patient distribution and the survival / neversevere distribution
14:38 < docl> ah, I do have a bit of hamburger
14:38 < fenn> regular onions are good btw, about half the concentration of quercetin as red onions
14:39 < fenn> don't have to be raw or anything
14:39 < docl> good to know. I'll step up my intake of onion.
14:39 < docl> garlic similar?
14:44 < fenn> garlic contains apigenin, a similar molecule to quercetin but i don't know if it has zinc ionophore activity. still probably a good idea
14:46 < fenn> oh it does contain quercetin
14:47 < fenn> "onion leaves" had a lot
14:47 < fenn> .wik allium fistulosum
14:47 < saxo> "Allium fistulosum, the Welsh onion, also commonly called bunching onion, long green onion, Japanese bunching onion, and spring onion, is a species of perennial plant, often considered to be a kind of scallion. /  The species is very similar in taste and odor to the related [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_fistulosum
14:48 < fenn> i think it's just a regular green onion
14:50 < fenn> http://sci-hub.tw/http://pub.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf000892m?src=recsys
14:50 < fenn> flavonoid contents of some foods
14:51 < fenn> black tea does have quercetin
14:52 < fenn> maybe not enough to matter, given the amounts typically consumed
14:57 < fenn> white onions contained no flavonols
14:57 < fenn> yellow onions had some
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15:57 < fltrz> did the Rega institute of KUL finish testing the gazillion drugs for covid19 with their unique automated testing setup?
15:57 < fltrz> the ones Bill Gates sent to the institute?
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19:10 < kanzure> https://blog.keep.network/threshold-ecdsa-safer-more-private-multi-signatures-51153f3e9ed2
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22:27 < nmz787> oh, interesting, I've been buying red onions for the last month or so
22:27 < nmz787> 25lbs at $9... hard to pass up
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