--- Log opened Sun Apr 19 00:00:57 2020
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00:33 < nsh> wat
00:33 < nsh> "Description
00:33 < nsh> GNU Taler is a free software-based microtransaction and electronic payment software. The project is led by Florian Dold and Christian Grothoff of Taler Systems SA. Taler is short for the Taxable Anonymous Libre Economic Reserves. It has vocal support from GNU Project founder Richard Stallman. Wikipedia"
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02:00 < fltrz> regardless of realism: suppose 1) identities were previously internationally generated regardless of continent 2) high bandwidth connectivity between continent A and B is severed, but a low bandwidth connection remains, and possibly undocumented bandwidth remains, then 3) How can we make optimal use of the low bandwidth documented channel between A and B to detect identities that performed transactions in both A and B (through an undocumented
02:00 < fltrz> channel) since the severing, without transmitting the full list of active identities between A and B?
02:01 < fltrz> i.e. suppose party A has list La and party B has list Lb, how do they detect common elements in their list without sending over the full list (naive approach)
02:02 < fltrz> I remember reading a paper that dealt with the last problem statement, but I fail to locate it again
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02:24 < fltrz> if a cryptocurrency can be proven to work over a sneakernet it removes the hypothetical incentive to shut down the protocol
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03:28 < nsh> good thinking fltrz
03:34 < nsh> <gmaxwell> send him this link https://github.com/sipa/minisketch/  and tell him to read the page.
03:34 < nsh> ^ fltrz
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03:36 < nsh> <gmaxwell> with minisketch,  A can communicate La to B  by sending no more than |La ∆ Lb| * sizeof(element)  data, which is quite close to the information theoretic limit.
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03:42 < fltrz> nsh, thanks, reading now
03:42 < nsh> np
03:43 < fltrz> nsh, so the paper is the PinSketch paper right?
03:43 < nsh> still discussing it in #bitcoin-forks if you want to listen in
03:43 < nsh> aye
03:59 < fenn> what's this, gmaxwell using moon runes?
04:02 < nsh> something like that
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06:57 < nsh> <nsh> copythink fucked up the UK's ventilator production strategy: https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251434219139665920
06:57 < nsh> <nsh> well done copythink, deathcount increases by several thousand
06:57 < nsh> .t https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251438926641930240
06:57 < saxo> Look at this @BBCNews report from March 16 - the day of the @BorisJohnson call. // MakeUK boss @Makeuk_Sphipson told Today we'd be better making existing stuff under license. // @PenlonGlobal head of products says it is "unrealistic" to make from scratch/8 // https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490 (@pmdfoster, in reply to tw:1251437912807407616)
06:57 < nsh> .t https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251439814408372226
06:57 < saxo> @BBCNews @BorisJohnson @MakeUK_SPhipson @PenlonGlobal But still, that's what the govt chooses to do - starting what one insider dismissively described to me as a 'hackathon' to reinvent the complex wheel that is a medical ventilator. // The boss of GTech, a Worcester garden appliance thought it was 'hoax'. /9 // https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/18322604.i-thought-hoax---worcester-company-race-time-build-life-saving-ventilators-c
07:06 < fenn> not sure why you blame copythink
07:08 < fenn> also i don't understand why it's so hard to build the right thing
07:09 < fenn> it's just valves, pressure sensors, and software
07:10 < fenn> a hackathon has never produced anything worthwhile even in the best of times
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07:16 < nsh> they clearly didn't want to license a decent design
07:16 < nsh> and decent designs shouldn't be licensed
07:16 < nsh> (at most they should be community ransomed to recover design costs and creative value)
07:18 < fenn> related:
07:19 < fenn> .title https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html
07:19 < saxo> coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage
07:19 < fenn> no saxo
07:19 < fenn> "The U.S. Tried to Build a New Fleet of Ventilators. The Mission Failed."
07:21 < fenn> just pure greed
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07:50 < nsh> tor 'let go' 13 employees due to covid19: https://blog.torproject.org/covid19-impact-tor
07:50 < nsh> seems like something that could have been avoided
08:18 < heath> https://youtu.be/StGm-m1EUgk?t=21170
08:18 < heath> g.hotz discovers coronope
08:24 < fltrz> I guess if eminent domain applies to land property, it could be considered to apply to intellectual property, and have designs be temporarily confiscated by government
08:34 < heath> https://github.com/geohot/corona
08:43 < nsh> +1 fltrz
08:44 < nsh> i have a sample of ghotz saying "TAKE THAT NSA, MY FIREWALL DEFEATED YOUR BACKDOOR!"
08:44 < nsh> i intend to play this at a rave repeatedly until someone finds it funny or i'm kicked off the decks
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09:02 < kanzure> fltrz: i think you might be talking about minisketch and things like that
09:03 < kanzure> once again gmaxwell beats me to it...
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09:14 < fltrz> nsh, lol, a cyber goth rave probably, with all these masks
09:14 < fltrz> kanzure, yup minisketch, yup gmaxwell beat you
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09:21 < nsh> lol
09:21 < nsh> silly wabbit, trix are for kids
09:39 < fenn> is there any other kind of rave
09:56 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=28bb5f62 Michael Folkson: Add Amiti at LA BitDevs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/la-bitdevs/2020-04-16-amiti-uttarwar-attacking-bitcoin-core/
09:56 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1c31196f Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #96 from michaelfolkson/add-amiti-ladevs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
10:06 < kanzure> https://a16z.com/2020/04/18/its-time-to-build/
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10:21 < fenn> great essay
10:27 < fenn> do you think a16z would fund open source cad software development?
10:30 < fenn> it's not that i have anything in particular to contribute, there's just been this gaping hole in the landscape for decades
10:38 < archels> nsh: looks like Tor got $1.2M in funding from US government sources over ~2018. I wonder how that has developed since then
10:38 < archels> they also got $23k from DuckDuckGo, heh
10:39 < kanzure> fenn: make it about cryptocurrency and they will do it
10:40 < kanzure> i know that sounds lame, and that's because it is.
10:40 < archels> the juicy details ⇒ https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Images/2018/208/096/2018-208096820-10d83a53-9.pdf
10:41 < kanzure> i don't think we have previously proposed any business model for a venture capital backed open-source cad startup
10:41 < fenn> what's a business model
10:42 < fenn> all i see is shit everywhere
10:42 < kanzure> a business model is usually a loose proposal or argument of an expectation of return on investment
10:43 < fenn> is there some actually well-crafted document somewhere for each startup that causes sane rational investors to believe in them?
10:43 < kanzure> no, but there's usually some sort of cohesive argument maybe in a slide deck
10:44 < kanzure> everyone wanted a github-but-for-CAD back in the day
10:44 < kanzure> thingiverse didn't turn into that. could trivially make money by charging for teams and private repositories.
10:44 < fenn> github wouldn't exist without git
10:45 < fenn> basically, github has stolen git's thunder
10:45 < kanzure> it would probably make less money than charging per seat like current CAD vendors
10:45 < kanzure> (and the analogy is a little flawed because it's not like github had to go build git or an entire 'code editor' first to make any progress)
10:45 < fenn> i don't like github at all
10:46 < fenn> the only reason it exists is because, for some unknown reason, git is a pain in the ass to host yourself on the web
10:46 < fenn> i consider github's existence a failure of open source software
10:46 < fenn> i mean it's great they provide free hosting and stuff, but that could have just as easily been done by dropbox or google
10:47 < kanzure> have you used gitlab by any chance? they started as a github competitor with an open-source github/cgit/whatever replacement
10:47 < fenn> non-free non-mobile issues and wikis and stuff is just bad
10:47 < fenn> gitlab is permanently on my shit list for destroying gitorious
10:48 < fenn> (the actually good thing)
10:48 < kanzure> anyway, open-source CAD could be used as a loss leader for things like remote FEA/CFD calculations over models
10:48 < fenn> they basically paid gitorious to shut down and send all the users to gitlab for instant userbase
10:49 < fenn> sure, fusion360 already does the pay-for-simulation business model, just with a bunch of other annoying business practices
10:50 < fenn> "cloud"
10:52 < fenn> it's just a trivial amount of money to fund development of a cad program, with ginormous returns to society
10:52 < fenn> look at blender
10:52 < fenn> they have like 5 developers
10:53 < fenn> oh, damn. well there goes my browser
11:02 < kanzure> i wonder how the blender foundation is doing financially
11:02 < fenn> $1.2m/yr
11:03 < fenn> blender has actually reached competitive parity with industry leaders in computer graphics
11:04 < fenn> it's better at some things, worse at others
11:20 < kanzure> that's such a small amount of money compared to the number of teams using blender and their budget.
11:20 < kanzure> many millions of dollars are spent per film on graphics
11:22 < kanzure> didn't octopart add some CAD stuff? or something
11:22 < kanzure> something about making money on the supply chain more than the design work
11:23 < kanzure> no, altium acquired octopart
11:30 < fenn> bleh
11:31 < kanzure> emachineshop had that CAD interface to assess price for manufacturing, that was interesting
11:31 < kanzure> s/price/cost
11:31 < fenn> something you might have actually heard of: www.blender.org/user-stories/japanese-anime-studio-khara-moving-to-blender/
11:32 < fenn> Khara, Inc. is known as Hideaki Anno’s motion picture planning and production company. They are currently working on “EVANGELION:3.0+1.0”,
11:35 < fenn> there is a very long tail of small computer graphics companies
11:36 < fenn> i actually recognize a lot of the names on the blender fund donor list, which means that not very many people/companies actually donate
11:37 < fenn> conversely, that means it doesn't take much to build an awesome product
11:48 < kanzure> you could sell training certificates to users of the open-source CAD tool as one way to get money
11:49 < kanzure> with some sort of argument to employers that they should prefer to hire those engineers because.. reasons..
11:50 < kanzure> it could also be through selling and licensing the trademark for the system, for companies that want to advertise themselves as producing products that can be fixed or having available designs
11:51 < fenn> OSI already has brand traction there
11:51 < fenn> suddenly i feel unclean
11:52 < fenn> why can't rich business moguls just spend money on things
11:52 < fenn> they can afford a stupid yacht but not a good world to live in?
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11:53 < fenn> it's too hard to make a business model work AND end up with the correct thing
12:07 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22915831
12:07 < saxo> A Full Break of the Bitstream Encryption of Xilinx 7-Series FPGAs | Hacker News
12:07 < EmmyNoether> A Full Break of the Bitstream Encryption of Xilinx 7-Series FPGAs | Hacker News
12:08 < kanzure> uh
12:08 < kanzure> nsh: which one is the real one
12:08 < kanzure> https://github.com/SymbiFlow/prjxray
12:09 < kanzure> https://github.com/daveshah1/nextpnr-xilinx
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12:09 < nsh> emmy is mine
12:09 < nsh> but slightly more broken
12:10 < fenn> "nextpnr is a open-source multi-architecture place-and-route framework aimed at real-world FPGA silicon. This is an experiment to integrate nextpnr with RapidWright, an open interface into Xilinx FPGAs, and Project Xray, open bitstream documentation for xc7 FPGAs."
12:11 < fenn> i think i'd be happy with a blinking LED proof of concept FPGA synthesis compiler doohickey whatever they're called
12:12 < fenn> does it actually do anything?
12:19 < fenn> either i just got really dumb or this FPGA stuff is way more complicated than it needs to be
12:19 < kanzure> it's probably because of xilinx proprietaryness
12:29 < fenn> what are the consequences of breaking xilinx's bitstream encryption?
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12:31 < fenn> i would love to be able to, you know, actually use them
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12:50 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4a6321b8 Michael Folkson: Minor edit >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/la-bitdevs/2020-04-16-amiti-uttarwar-attacking-bitcoin-core/
12:50 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=bc53b923 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #97 from michaelfolkson/minor-edit >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
12:59 < fenn> looking at project x-ray has made me depressed
13:00 < fenn> apparently they subscribe to the "maximum number of hoops to jump through" school of volunteering
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13:39 < fltrz> fenn, I didn't use it, but from glancing over the prjxray page, it looks like its 95% explaining how to use the tool to fuzz locally which takes a lot of time, or alternatively you use the database provided which contains the result of fuzzing
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17:01 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=64fcc0b1 Michael Folkson: Add lnd 0.10 presentation in virtual reality >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/vr-bitcoin/2020-04-18-laolu-joost-oliver-lnd0.10/
17:01 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=81aac819 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #98 from michaelfolkson/add-vr-lnd >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
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20:52 < lsneff> Wow, I just saw some riscv assembly. Honestly, beautiful architecture. Wonder if windows or macOS will ever run on it.
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 20 00:00:57 2020