--- Log opened Tue Apr 21 00:00:58 2020
00:19 -!- sektor [~sektor@46.252.59.175] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:21 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
00:58 < nsh> archels, get the carbon over the yoga
00:58 < nsh> unless you need touchscreen
00:58 < nsh> it's a better build quality
00:59 < nsh> (but definitely 16GB and SSD)
00:59 < nsh> i think i could even go 32GB on next go around
01:34 < archels> yeah, touchscreen is a hard requirement for me
01:36 < archels> Carbon X1s with 16GB are a little harder to come by
01:49 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:11 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evsyescubndnnrjb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
02:13 < archels> the deal has been sealed
02:13 < archels> next up: adding 1.5 TB of storage
02:46 < nsh> fair enough
02:46 < nsh> i did get a yoga before this carbon but didn't see in the listing that the touchscreen was borken
02:46 < nsh> then it looked like more things were going to break form the cracks so i sent it back
02:46 < nsh> *from
02:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:58 < archels> jeepers. OK, let's see
06:16 < docl> per aurellem (who had the same idea) magnetocaloric effect isn't strong enough to do quick cooling. but maybe there's some other way to exploit nanostructure thermal properties for even cooling? perhaps tiny bits of diamond sandwiched between steel would be deformed enough to reversibly emit heat when you subject it to multi-Tesla field
06:18 < adlai> if electrodynamics are insufficiently kinetic for your needs, consider shrinking the vacuum
06:19 < docl> looks like I was pondering this back in December: .tw https://twitter.com/lsparrish/status/1203407703013388288
06:20 < docl> .tw
06:20 < saxo> @RokoMijicUK Linear thermal coefficient of expansion is 1.3 x 10^-6 m/m.K for diamond. // This changes with temp and pressure, but naively means compressing by 1% increases temp by 10,000 K and decompressing absorbs similar amount. // Could be useful as an ultra-rapid cooling mechanism. (@lsparrish, in reply to tw:1203398273349742592)
06:22 < docl> Ok, so once I crunched some numbers I realized diamond as refrigerant is probably not a good idea because it takes 443 GJ in mechanical force to move 15.6 GJ of thermal energy
06:22 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/lsparrish/status/1203407703013388288
06:22 < saxo> @RokoMijicUK Linear thermal coefficient of expansion is 1.3 x 10^-6 m/m.K for diamond. // This changes with temp and pressure, but naively means compressing by 1% increases temp by 10,000 K and decompressing absorbs similar amount. // Could be useful as an ultra-rapid cooling mechanism. (@lsparrish, in reply to tw:1203398273349742592)
06:23 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/lsparrish/status/1203416856842784768
06:23 < saxo> @RokoMijicUK Let's see whether mechanical or thermal dominates the stored energy in compressed diamond: // 4.43GPa pushing against 1 cm on 1 cubic meter of diamond -> 443 GJ. // Mass is 3000kg, specific heat is 0.52 kJ/kg.K. At 10000 K -> 15.6 GJ. // So thermal is small vs mechanical (@lsparrish, in reply to tw:1203407703013388288)
06:23 < adlai> practical research aside, my guess is that in 3d, you'll have optimal cooling speed with polonium, due to the cubic lattice enabling you to cool linearly
06:24  * adlai wonders what exactly needs such extremal values, though
06:25 < docl> what I really want it for is cryonics
06:25 < docl> perfuse with the right nano-stuff, slowly crank up an external field while cooling, then shut it off for instant distributed cooling
06:26 < adlai> perhaps this is counter to a few of the main selling points, but i'd think that there are significant advantages to completely ignoring spatial propagation speeds of coolants until the industry is at the point where such research justifies itself
06:28 < docl> how so?
06:29 < adlai> my reason for this is that anyone who's primarily concerned with surviving the entire cycle, and living to consider surviving another dozen, rather than exist henceforth as little more than a dementia patient or a facial recognition cortex, is likely to prefer that integrity checks are temporally prioritized over changes to the storage temperature
06:29 < adlai> so, going back to extremism, you've got a century during which you can spend a decade moving between each coolant material
06:30 < adlai> ... and a millenium at liquid nitrogen temperatures
06:31 < docl> well, I'm still assuming you store in LN2. dropping the temperature more quickly lets you avoid damage along the way though.
06:32 < adlai> damage is undefined; maintaining consciousness at all temperatures is mandatory.
06:33 < docl> for example, dropping temperature quickly enough lets you avoid chilling injury while getting down from biological temperature to the freezing point of water
06:33  * adlai floats two easy damage candidates: rapid motion of thermal buffer, rapid pH changes, both as measured in spatial flux
06:34 < docl> after which you have to add cryoprotectants to go any further. dropping temperatures more quickly and evenly lets you avoid toxicity damage from these
06:34 < adlai> by "motion of thermal buffer" i mean changes of the buffer molecule's concentration, granularized appropriately per molucule
06:37  * adlai thinks it's worth distinguishing between archival, for purposes of embryologic research, and preservation for purposes of thawing
06:38 < adlai> e.g., "albert einstein had a weirdly-shaped head" is 19th-century archival, "we thawed hal finney and he admitted to selling bitcoins for profit on XYZ date" is an example of thawing for ludicrous purposes
06:38 < adlai> thaw me when .tw fetches statistics about thawing failures
06:39 < docl> osmotic is one of the main forms of damage in cryo
06:40 < adlai> lolyes, you're not going to prevent that without replacing cell membrane materials
06:40 < docl> water on both sides of the membrane wants there to be similar numbers of not-water molecules, so when you replace water outside the cells with stuff with more solute molecules it tends to suck water out
06:40  * adlai finds himself, for the first time in a long time, glad that he's got a book about fundamental chemistry of the sterols
06:41 < docl> the rabbit kidney used a 2 hour ramp
06:42 < docl> if you want to get that down to a matter of minutes, you need something that accelerates the rate of not-water stuff getting into the cells
06:42 < docl> hence my interest in microencapsulated trehalose, for example
06:43  * adlai is bullish on log summaries, no offence to channel operators :)
06:43 < docl> in principle, you could have some kind of starch that breaks down into trehalose (or another sugar). cells come with glycogen already. giant molecules that break down into large numbers of glucose molecules as needed
06:44 < docl> so yesterday I posted some links to papers on microencapsulated trehalose
06:44 < docl> trehalose is the water bear sugar that protects them from desiccation and lets them survive LN2 temps
06:45 < docl> apparently also helps human cells survive desiccation (someone tried it with foreskin cells using an adenovirus vector)
06:46 < docl> but we aren't so interested in desiccation because the whole shrivelling into a tiny ball thing could be bad for the brain
06:46 < docl> cytoskeletal damage e.g.
06:47 < docl> but apart from the shrinkage thing, it's the high concentration of not-water molecules that we're worried about. which is needed to prevent ice (unless you can cool *absurdly* quickly).
06:47 < adlai> water is quite a small molecule, and should be easy to modulate at fluctes rapid relative to changes in metabolant concentration
06:48 < docl> trehalose is one of the best not-water molecules to have inside of a cell. it's like a soft fluffy cushion. buuut it's a big molecule that mammalian cells have no equipment to get past the walls.
06:49 < docl> it also has the issue of high viscosity, so hard to perfuse evenly through tissue at high concentrations
06:50 < docl> so microencapsulation lets you avoid some of that. it's not dissolved at all until you break down the stuff coating the granules. which (per one of the papers) can be a plastic that dissolves at a specific low temperature.
06:53 < ptrcmd> viscosity sounds like something that can affect a lot of things, like transportation inside cells
06:54 < docl> so this shows that there are ways other than osmosis to tackle the problem. the granules get into the cells, then dissolve at low temperature. suddenly, the number of not-water molecules inside the cell is high.
06:56 < docl> if you get enough trehalose inside the cells, you could potentially achieve high temperature vitrification this way. desiccation without collapsing the cytoskeleton. this would be harder (need a lot more sugar molecules delivered) than just achieving concentration needed to vitrify (avoid ice formation) in the contect of ln2 temps
06:58  * adlai wonders whether this bot will give any useful information!
06:58 < adlai>  .wik trehalose
06:58 < adlai> .wik trehalose
06:58 < saxo> "Trehalose (from Turkish 'trehala' - a sugar derived from insect cocoons + -ose)  is a sugar consisting of two molecules of glucose.  It is also known as  mycose or tremalose." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trehalose
06:59 < adlai> cue holy war between unambiguous chemical designators.
07:00 < ptrcmd> docl: is this hiberenation stuff?
07:00 < docl> yeah basically
07:00 < adlai> "Trehalose is a disaccharide" well that's just downright confusing, please call it something that doesn't start with a sound so similar to "tri-"anything
07:01 < adlai> ptrcmd, docl is talking about hibernation flexes, i'm talking about surviving thawing
07:01 < kanzure> play nice
07:01 < adlai> specifically, docl wants to vitrify brains.
07:01 < docl> although I think of hibernation as more like estivating at biologically active temps/conditions. desiccation and cryopreservation are more extreme, but also should be more durable
07:01 < adlai> possibly entire soma
07:02 < docl> adlai: at least it ends in -ose, so you know it's a sugar
07:02 < adlai> kanzure: ok, from now on i call it "thawage", since that sounds similar to the 21st century english word for urban waste liquid
07:02 < docl> sucrose = table sugar = disacharride made from fructose and glucose
07:03 < docl> trehalose is sorta like that but made from pairs of glucoses stacked on each other
07:03  * adlai is insufficiently educated to determine whether there is a precise appellation for disaccharides that are dimers
07:04 < docl> I think all disaccharides are dimers?
07:04 < adlai> sucrose seems to be a heterodimer, whereas trehalose is a homodimer
07:04 < docl> it's just a subcategory where the monomers are sugary
07:04 < docl> true
07:05 < docl> glycogen (aka animal starch) would be a polysaccharide
07:05  * adlai is sufficiently educated, id est "enough absence of learning to be dangerous" to forget prefixes intentionally, in the hope that other people steelman
07:13 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:16 < adlai> there're local maxima of rapid freezing, and consciousness continuation across coolant cycles; nobody has yet mentioned mucking with hox modulator gradients in fertilized eggs
07:22 < docl> what do the hox modulator gradients in fertilized eggs have to do with cryonics?
07:23 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:24 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:27 < adlai> time's passage damages integrity of both genotype and phenotype across generations, and that is how you're able to understand concepts from embryology; yet a partially thawed individual may plausibly stipulate, in their thawage contract, that they require certain recognized mechanisms of phenotype construction to be preserved by the entire cycle, to prevent speciation during retention of the frozen
07:27 < adlai> artifacts by overzealous profiteers
07:27 < adlai> ... and a plausible alternative is to stipulate that speciation must occur.
07:28 < docl> wow, that sounds like a train of thought with no practical value
07:28 < ptrcmd> what's phenotype construction?
07:29 < ptrcmd> like how my face looks like?
07:30 < ptrcmd> or my brain structure?
07:32 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
07:32 < adlai> ptrcmd, an example of phenotype construction, from the genotype, is the fact that certain genetic mutations in fruit flies relocate the eventual formation of legs to where their eyes should be
07:32 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:33 < adlai> the earliest evidence of this change is the activation and deactivation of various mechanisms that segmentate instead of producing a compound eye
07:34 < fltrz> I remember someone here was making a dynamic analog filter a few years ago
07:35 < ptrcmd> adlai: is the mutation that causes wrinkled vs non-wrinkled pea a phenotype construction?
07:36  * adlai never attempted validating mendel's publications, so can't ethically comment on such ancient research!
07:38 < ptrcmd> well, suppose that wrinkled vs non-wrinkled pea is caused by a single mutation. would this example be a phenotype construction under this assumption?
07:38 < adlai> my guess is that if you can readily understand what's the difference between the two plant populations, then it's a phenotype; and if you must rely upon a baroque process such as fragmenting nucleic acids, or breeding the populations for multiple generations to guage their relative fitnesses, then it's not a phenotype
07:39 < adlai> in the textbook freshman bio example, it's a single mutation in the genotype that has phenotypic effect
07:42 < docl> I'm not so sure future humans will rely on the same mechanisms for phenotype, where it's basically all latent in the embryo. It's likely they will replace it with something more easily computer-controlled and modified in adult life.
07:44 < ptrcmd> docl: like phenotype controlled by computer controlled artificial genome?
07:46 < ptrcmd> docl: I feel like I am not sure how to imagine "easily modified phenotypes"..
07:46 < ptrcmd> docl: which is computer-controlled
07:47 < ptrcmd> in an abstract sense I can understand that
07:48 < ptrcmd> but I am not sure what the possible mechanisms for that can be
07:48 < ptrcmd> or plausible
07:51 < docl> like, if you want more cells of x type in y location you dial it into your computer and it delivers a signal that tells stem cells to start producing there.
07:51 < docl> you'd have a 3d map of the body, with every tissue specified in pretty good detail (maybe not every cell, but to a reasonable approximation)
07:56 < docl> that's essentially what an organ is: cells in specific locations in three dimensions, connected in specific ways by specific biomolecular structures. how they grow that way is kind of opaque at present. stem cells seem to differentiate based on environmental stresses and grow into organs once you print them in the right patterns. but our control of this process isn't that great. we're going to want to
07:56 < docl> increase our control of it by a lot.
07:59 < ptrcmd> ah
07:59 < ptrcmd> I see
08:00 < ptrcmd> and maybe tell the original (to be replaced) organ to go into programmed death or something like that
08:00 < ptrcmd> yeah, the organoid stuff
08:02 < docl> maybe program the immune system to hunt down senescent cells, and program the stem cells to replace them slowly over time
08:04 < ptrcmd> and we would all become immortal heh
08:05 < docl> with aubre de grey's "whole body interdictioning of lengthening of telomeres" concept, you'd end up with cells that naturally age quickly because they have no telomere lengthening capability. so you would replace them using externally cultured stem cells with long telomeres (but also lacking the telomere lengthening capability). this would prevent all cancer mutations from reaching malignant stage, as
08:05 < docl> they would always hit the hayflick limit.
08:08 < ptrcmd> interesting idea
08:09 < ptrcmd> how about cells that actually need telomere lengthening capabilities though
08:09 < ptrcmd> like germline
08:10 < docl> you'd do that in a lab
08:10 < ptrcmd> ah, so that would mean that we would be genetically castrated by default
08:10 < docl> so every 7 years or so you would get a new stem cell infusion. at which point, you might get new tweaks added to make you more comfortable, healthy, etc
08:11 < docl> yes, but this is an anti-aging treatment so it happens after the age you're naturally infertile anyway
08:11 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@unaffiliated/nmz787] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:11 < ptrcmd> ah
08:12 -!- nmz787 [~nmz787@bryan.fairlystable.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:17 -!- aeiousomething [~aeiousome@unaffiliated/aeiousomething] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:19 < docl> then again, sterility won't have the same connotations in a world where it's 100% safe and reversible. parents might prefer to set their children's default to be incapable of pregnancy until they are 30+ as a socioeconomic benefit. also, there's nothing stoping sterile seniors in their 100+ years from becoming temporarily fertile or concieving in vitro.
08:21 < ptrcmd> yeah
08:21 < ptrcmd> it would be a very different world
08:29 < docl> people with modern sensibilities often worry about a world where, suddenly, biology is destiny. thing is, we live in a world where biology *significantly* affects your destiny. but as we get better at controlling biology, that's going to be less true rather than more true.
08:32 < docl> genetic evolution, in terms of the trial and error for new mutations, will happen more in the bodies of adults who can decide which genes they like, instead of in children who have no control over the matter or consenting power. seems like a net gain in ethical terms
08:32 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:45 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:48 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:37 -!- sektor [~sektor@46.252.59.175] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
09:37 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rolszfxqvrlcqvnd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:40 -!- rodarmor [sid210835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkpekprofqdxmmcv] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
09:43 -!- rodarmor [sid210835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keuoaawcwhipvvkb] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:43 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ldhsbxnfeoizupzx] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:04 -!- nice [1f0a9115@31.10.145.21] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:04 < docl> hmm. binding water molecules to a nanostructure might be a route to controlled increase of concentration of cryoprotectant solutes. not too dissimilar to ice formation, but maybe without the volume distortion effects. maybe have an antenna that resists absorbing water while it receives a light signal, then starts absorbing it when the signal is switched off.
10:07 < docl> if it can stay analogous in volume to the water it absorbs, and if you can have it absorb intracellular and extracellular water at the same rate, you could go from low to high molarity rather quickly without much osmosis.
10:18 -!- nice [1f0a9115@31.10.145.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:51 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@unaffiliated/bsm117532] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:51 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@unaffiliated/bsm117532] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:05 < docl> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superabsorbent_polymer
11:05 < saxo> "Superabsorbent polymer (SAP) (also called slush powder) can absorb and retain extremely large amounts of a liquid relative to its own mass. /  Water-absorbing polymers, which are classified as hydrogels when mixed, absorb aqueous solutions through hydrogen bonding with water [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superabsorbent_polymer
11:05 < docl> maybe those could be use intracellularly?
11:16 < docl> hmm. trehalose already immobilizes water to some degree. maybe releasing it from microencapsulation actually increases molarity by virtue of reduced free water.
13:29 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnlmqmilsnhphdbo] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:40 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:01 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:03 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:08 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-114-73-160.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:46 < jrayhawk> win 6
15:46 < jrayhawk> whoops
15:47 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:59 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:09 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnlmqmilsnhphdbo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
16:11 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has left ##hplusroadmap []
16:11 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:47 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:53 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:55 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:59 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:4c69:7b2b:232d:9ecc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
19:06 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mbdjbbwxbvhwgcet] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:00 -!- turona [~quassel@2a01:c22:ac3d:af00:fac9:f4cd:5d7c:ba9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20:00 -!- turona [~quassel@2a01:c23:646f:1b00:19b9:a8e0:a81d:b53c] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:32 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:44 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:54 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@172.58.19.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:16 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mbdjbbwxbvhwgcet] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:57 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@unaffiliated/dongcarl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
--- Log closed Wed Apr 22 00:01:00 2020