--- Log opened Tue May 12 00:00:18 2020
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02:44 < kanzure> hmph
02:56 < fenn> you're not impressed by "age reduction breakthrough"?
03:05 < archels> [8,wb_cond_multisyn_nestml, INFO, [180:43;180:53]]: Implicit casting from (compatible) type '1 / ms' to 'real'.
03:05 < archels> oops, ignore
03:06 < L29Ah> we are royally not impressed
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07:25 < fenn> we seem to be missing the experiment wherein we repeatedly inject a young mouse with old plasma and see if it sticks, i.e. the mouse turns old and stays old
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07:38 < kanzure> inform the gerontologists
07:55 < fenn> i don't know any gerontologists
07:56 < kanzure> okay then just email geore
07:56 < kanzure> george
07:59 < fenn> http://geneandcell.com/collections looks like john is actually making molecular biology tools from scratch
07:59 < fenn> products with price tags, amazing!
08:38 < docl> so he's saying it's not cellular, and you can solve aging by just replacing the blood? like 4 treatments and you're young again?
08:39 < docl> does the effect stick? can you donate your newly young plasma repeatedly and stay young?
08:40 < docl> that would be ridiculously convenient compared to a cellular aging model
08:42 < docl> I'm thinking it's realistically/optimistically a non-comprehensive solution that adds a few years of lifespan and healthspan. still rather cool and could help keep people out of nursing homes.
08:44 < docl> like, if you add young/healthy immune cells and antibodies, do the senescent ones stick around and gum up the works? maybe you have to kill off the old immune system first before replacing it with a young one if you want strong results
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09:31 < lsneff> Well, anything helps, no? Even if they're not complete solutions, what matters is maintaining healthspan until longevity escape velocity is achieved.
09:35 -!- urkk_ is now known as urkk
10:03 < docl> definitely
10:04 < docl> as long as it does actually extend lifespan in humans, which is reasonable
11:17 < TMA> if keeping people out of nursing homes is the metric of success, there are ways to boost that without any new treatment...
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11:37 < mrdata> getting transfusions from young people so you can stay healthy is so vampire goth it ought to be written into pulp fiction
11:39 < lsneff> It's kind of cool actually. I mean, probably unethical, but pretty rad nonetheless
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11:45 < fenn> if i were young, i'd sign up to donate plasma. if i were old, i'd pay for young plasma. what's unethical?
11:46 < fenn> unless you just mean http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction
11:48 < fenn> we'd be better off than all being unemployed and then dead
11:49 < fenn> not that the money comes from nowhere, but surely throwing away decades of experience is bad
11:50 < fenn> this is the last place i'd expect to have to justify longevity
11:51 < lsneff> Okay, fair
11:52 < lsneff> I imagine that the factors that contribute here will be quickly reverse-engineered?
11:52 < fenn> the article implied that they already had been, and that's what the breakthrough was
11:52 < lsneff> Ah, my mistake.
11:52 < lsneff> Even for artificial synthesis?
11:53 < lsneff> Or scalable synthesis that doesn't involve humans, at least.
11:53 < fenn> "it is derived from a fraction of blood plasma" is literally all the info provided
11:54 < fenn> i'd like to believe it could be easily synthesized, but i'd also like to believe that we could test ourselves for covid-19
11:54 < lsneff> Indeed
11:54 < lsneff> There's going to be a lot of money behind this, so I think we'll be able to figure it out.
11:55 < lsneff> Getting age reversal literally two decades before we thought is a huge breakthrough.
11:56 < fenn> dunno what timeline you're on
11:56 < fenn> anyway history has been a long series of things like this
11:57 < fenn> nothing's going to change if we just sit around waiting for someone else to do it
12:00 < fenn> really where does this "two decades" thing come from? "we" have known about heterochronic parabiosis for over 60 years now
12:00 < fenn> there was nothing stopping anybody from injecting mice with blood plasma
12:01 < lsneff> It was just a rough timelines suggested by Sinclair I believe
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12:31 < yashgaroth> did they do anything in this paper that wasn't done in all the previous parabiosis experiments? aside from using horvath's dna methylation gauge
12:38 < yashgaroth> why does the rejuvenated liver look even better than the young control wrt methylation? and I'm concerned that they show no real difference in brain tissue though I guess people usually die of non-brain stuff first
12:44 < fenn> presumably if the programmed aging theory holds up to scrutiny this would mean there are analogous aging factors in cerebrospinal fluid
12:44 < fenn> or perhaps i should say youthening factors
12:45 < fenn> he did mention it in an old paper linked in the article
12:45 < fenn> .wik eotaxin
12:45 < saxo> "The eotaxins are a CC chemokine subfamily of eosinophil chemotactic proteins. /  In humans, there are three family members: /  ^ Van Coillie E, Van Damme J, Opdenakker G (March 1999). 'The MCP/eotaxin subfamily of CC chemokines'." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eotaxin
12:46 < fenn> CCL11 in particular
12:48 < yashgaroth> good luck paying broke college students for their cerebrospinal fluid though
12:49 < yashgaroth> I don't know how odd it is that the mice's grip strength returns to youthful strength after one week, while many of the other measurements take several months to approach youthful levels
12:49 < fenn> i haven't really read the paper. feeling dumb today
12:50 < yashgaroth> I've skimmed, but it's a load of data and when there's obvious financial and ideological interests involved, even the data is potentially suspect
12:51 < kanzure> "feeling dumb today, thought i'd take a picture"
12:51 < yashgaroth> I wonder if they could pitch youthful cerebrospinal fluid (or a magic and/or synthetic fraction thereof) as an alzheimer's treatment...after, I suppose, several years of mouse data
12:52 < fenn> well since literally every other anti-aging group in all history has utterly failed, i'm willing to at least consider an alternative theory
12:53 < yashgaroth> you say "all history" as if ponce de leon had a real shot at finding the fountain of youth
12:54 < fenn> there were lots of romans and nobles in the middle ages with various idea
12:54 < fenn> one guy had some success with eating bread baked with coarsely ground flour
12:54 < fenn> but after all this we've barely budged lifespan
12:55 < yashgaroth> every time aubrey says people used to live until 35, a little more of me dies inside
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12:57 < yashgaroth> I have to assume they're keeping some of these mice alive and continuing the treatments, to see how much longer they potentially live
12:57 < fenn> hopefully
12:57 < fenn> i figured some of the mice would only be treated once and then survivor curves measured
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13:02 < yashgaroth> that too, though I'm already wary enough of it being a special secret plasma fraction that takes blood from basically worthless to age-reversing, aside from the issue of patenting a fraction of blood, or having trade secrets in an injectable treatment
13:05 < yashgaroth> guess no one else can try to replicate their results without knowing the special fractionation which...idgi is it like ion exchange chromatography fractions of blood? why would a bunch of blood proteins with similar charge (or hydrophobicity or size or something) have a rejuvenating effect only when separated from the others
13:06 < fenn> because they isolated a single protein but don't have the analytical skills or funding to sequence it in-house
13:07 < fenn> if they publish the secret sauce then they can't file for patent protection later
13:07 < fenn> or something... i don't really understand how patents work in the US now
13:08 < fenn> when i hear "plasma fraction" i think centrifuges
13:08 < fenn> probably incorrect, but still
13:09 < yashgaroth> ehh I doubt a single protein would explain it, IDing a protein with mass spec is like $200
13:09 < yashgaroth> the patent situation is weird, either it's simply not patentable enough in the current state, or maybe yeah they do want to nail down the specific molecule...but still
13:12 < yashgaroth> one has to assume with this method that there's some rejuvenating protein (or proteins) that is...inactive in whole blood? but still has its effect in the young mice? and once released/activated it becomes useful in old mice??
13:14 < fenn> his theory is pretty vague but one speculation was that there is a balance of pro- and anti- aging proteins
13:15 < yashgaroth> that would imply that young mice have a ton of both pro- and anti-aging proteins in their blood, otherwise the fractionation should render even old blood usable as a treatment (once the pro-aging protein is removed)
13:15 < fenn> sure
13:16 < fenn> the conboys were saying removal of pro-aging stuff is more important, it's just that we don't know what they are
13:18 < yashgaroth> that seems at odds with the current study, but I guess it's all vague speculation at this point
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15:19 < Urchin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_Eh0J_4_s
15:39 < lsneff> .t
15:39 < saxo> What Is A Rotating Detonation Engine - And Why Are They Better Than Regular Engines - YouTube
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--- Log closed Wed May 13 00:00:19 2020