--- Log opened Thu May 21 00:00:28 2020
00:07 < TMA> L29Ah: movement and blinking is easy, just will it. focusing on different distances is hard
00:08 < TMA> juri_: I do not quite follow. do you agree or disagree with my statement?
00:18 < TMA> (a lone "this" looks as a shortcut for either "this is so wrong, I cannot even begin to describe how" or "this is so right, I don't want to obscure it with more words")
00:26 < TMA> A Zen master was known to strike the ground four times with his staff when he was pleased with the disciple's reply. A novice asks another disciple, what does the master do when he is not pleased. "Well, he strikes the ground with his staff four times," replied the other.
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03:43 < juri_> tma: strongly agree.
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06:38 < abetusk> kanzure, what do you use to log on this channel?
06:40 < kanzure> irssi + tmux
06:49 < abetusk> thanks
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10:05 < kanzure> quarantine is probably applying selective pressure to make a coronavirus that survives 2 week quarantines
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11:45 < docl> https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/marine-electrolysis-for-building-materials-and-environmental-restoration
11:45 < docl> .title
11:45 < saxo> Marine Electrolysis for Building Materials and Environmental Restoration | IntechOpen
11:49 < docl> if you electrolyze seawater within a certain voltage range, you can form a mineral similar to but stronger than cement. it grows on the cathode at a rate of 1-2cm/yr. cathode is protected from corrosion, so you can basically use meshes to grow it on. energy cost is about 1 kWh/kg.
11:59 < lsneff> kanzure: don't be so depressing
12:26 < juri_> hack all of the things?
12:26 < jrayhawk> it already mutated the D614G variant of the spike protein to better target non-Asian ACE2
12:28 < jrayhawk> s/mutated/mutated to/
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12:41 < docl> maybe humans will evolve the ability to stay isolated for longer than 2-week intervals
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13:40 < L29Ah> docl: so slow~
13:41 < L29Ah> but a steel sponge might be interesting
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14:48 < ACHLO> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QokZbqwcHwc
14:53 < kanzure> no
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15:01 < fenn> .title
15:01 < saxo> Selection of animal attacks on cars. | ANIMAL VS CAR - PART2 - YouTube
15:01 < fenn> aha
15:02 < fenn> i need a command line youtube-title thing that doesn't take 20 seconds to decompress itself and load html
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15:54 < fenn> docl: the living universe foundation, based on marshall savage's book "the millennial project", spent several years researching the process, but it never worked
15:54 < L29Ah> fenn: youtube-dl -e
15:55 < L29Ah> youtube-dl -e 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QokZbqwcHwc'  0.84s user 0.06s system 53% cpu 1.684 total
15:55 < fenn> that's what i'm already using, thanks
15:56 < fenn> real    0m9.667s, sys     0m0.332s
15:58 < L29Ah> there you go
15:58 < L29Ah> ‰ curl -s 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QokZbqwcHwc' | sed -n -e 's#.*og:title" content="\([^"]*\)".*#\1#p'
15:58 < L29Ah> Selection of animal attacks on cars. | ANIMAL VS CAR - PART2
16:00 < fenn> thanks, very nice
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16:55 < docl> fenn: I wonder what failed about their attempts? The paper I read makes it sound easy.
16:55 < docl> L29Ah: Yes, you want to use some kind of mesh to get the time down.
16:56 < docl> an idea I've been pondering is pulling metals through a selective membrane that only allows a given type of ion through
16:57 < docl> I assume mechanisms exist in biology that do this, but I'm not sure how they work
16:57 < docl> sodium and calcium ions are smaller than iron ions, so how would you make a membrane that only lets iron through?
16:58 < docl> at the mature-tech end you could have the membrane allow a mix of iron, nickle, chromium etc. through that causes stainless steel to form
16:59 < L29Ah> docl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve
16:59 < docl> L29Ah: thanks!
16:59 < L29Ah> also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
17:01 < docl> L29Ah: molecular sieve sounds like it works for only allowing particles below a given size, but is there a way to target mid sized ions and exclude anything smaller?
17:01 < L29Ah> https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/sustainability/sustainability-02-00980/article_deploy/sustainability-02-00980.pdf
17:02 < L29Ah> docl: you just allow everything smaller and then wash your product
17:02 < L29Ah> from the membrane
17:02 < L29Ah> as it's done in the commercial reverse osmosis filtration systems
17:09 < fenn> "molecular sieve" is a misnomer and probably not what you want
17:09 < fenn> they are adsorbants, not selective membranes
17:10 < fenn> if you have two membranes you draw from the volume between them and make sure the bulk of the flow is through both membranes
17:10 < fenn> | | -> most flow
17:10 < fenn>  v  selection
17:10 < L29Ah> adsorbents can be used to concentrate stuff
17:11 < L29Ah> used commercially for oxygen concentrators for instance
17:11 < L29Ah> for oxypropane welding and medical stuff
17:15 < fenn> docl: you can read about their progress or lack of it by cross referencing these posts with the mailing list archive https://livinguniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Environments_Ecovillage  https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/luf-team-archive.zip
17:18 < docl> hmm. I remember they use selective adsorbants for uranium harvesting (and a long yarn with a lot of surface area)
17:21 < docl> https://engineering.stanford.edu/magazine/article/how-extract-uranium-seawater-nuclear-power
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18:15 < heath> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZfZj2bn_xg
18:15 < saxo> Upload - Official Trailer I Prime Video - YouTube
18:28 < docl> .title http://gramlich.net/projects/oceania/seastead2/index.html
18:28 < saxo> Getting Serious About SeaSteading
18:29 < docl> gives wildly different numbers than goreau's 2012 paper for the energy cost
18:30 < docl> Goreau: "Hilbertz and Goreau did an experiment in the 1980s at the Discovery Bay Marine Laboratory in Jamaica in which a new battery of known voltage and amp hours was completely discharged through electrodes and the amount of minerals grown on the anode was weighed. The yield was 1.07 Kilograms/Kilowatt hour, very close to the theoretically expected value. A field experiment done in the sea at the Mar
18:30 < docl> ina Hemingway, near Havana, Cuba measured values of around 0.4-0.5 Kg/KWh (Amat et al., 1994). At this site there were many large steel structures in the water nearby, which attracted stray currents and reduced measured efficiency of mineral production on the cathode."
18:30 < docl> so that's about 1 lb/kWh in (supposedly) non-ideal conditions vs 2.2 lb/kWh in the other test
18:31 < docl> Gramlich: "
18:31 < docl> Professor Wolf Hilbertz came up with fascinating idea of "seacrete", a material which is created by submerging an electrified wire mesh in seawater. Minerals are drawn out of the water by the current, and create a cement-like substance. The number commonly cited for seacrete energy requirements (4.2 lbs per kW/hr) would make it quite efficient if correct. Unfortunately, this figure has two serious flaw
18:31 < docl> s: it is based on a single experiment (Wolf Hilbertz, "Electrodeposition of Minerals in Sea Water: Experiments and Applications," IEEE Journal of Oceanic Engineering, Vol. OE-4, No. 3, (July 1979), p.98. ) and it is off by a factor of 40 due to a computation error, as Eric Lee has demonstrated []. When corrected, it turns out that seacrete costs 10-20 times as much as simply buying concrete. Thus desig
18:31 < docl> ns based on these technologies are seriously flawed."
18:32 < docl> So we have claims of 1-2 lbs vs supposedly 40 x 4.2 lbs
18:33 < docl> Eric Lee is a TMP guy. His webpage is down and web archive doesn't know about it.
18:34 < docl> .title https://www.gwern.net/docs/economics/2009-friedman-seasteadingapracticalguide.pdf
18:34 < saxo> Sorry, page isn't HTML
18:35 < docl> Friedman and Gramlich: "The number of 4.2 lbs / kWhr (1.9 kg/kWhr) cited for seacrete energy requirements in places like [Savage1992], if correct, would make it quite efficient. Unfortunately, this figure has two serious flaws. First, it is based on a single experiment [Hilbertz1979]. Second, it is off by a factor of 42 due to a computation error, as Eric Lee has demonstrated. Rather than integrating p
18:35 < docl> ower over time to get energy, the power used was taken as the energy. The process took 42 hours, hence the error. In fact, at maximum theoretical efficiency the rate is only 1 kg/kWh, and practical efficiences are much less than this. Hilbertz’s published experiment produced only 0.046 kg/kWhr. At this rate, the energy alone costs well over an order of magnitude more than just buying cement"
18:38 < docl> Hmm. Looks like Goreau might not be accounting for the error, since he is citing ~1kg/kWh.
18:38 < docl> Here's the original Hilbertz paper: http://www.wolfhilbertz.com/downloads/1979/hilbertz_IEEE_1979.pdf
18:43 < L29Ah> stop using retarded units plzkthx :)
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19:00 < docl> lolyup
19:02 < docl> unfortunately the Marina Hemingway experiment referenced by Goreau does not exist on the internet according to google scholar. also I would not be able to read it very easily, since it is evidently written in spanish, going by the title
19:03 < docl> "Enrique Amat Balbosa, Juan Carlos Prada, Frank Moore Wedderborn, & Eumelia Reyes
19:03 < docl> Reyes, 1994, Estudio preliminar de la acrecion marina, Revista Arquitectura y
19:03 < docl> Urbanismo, Vol XV, No. 243:1-16"
19:16 < docl> Hah, Eric Lee was wrong! And his mistake was understandable because there's a notation error where it says W instead of Wh
19:17 < docl> Think about it -- car battery. 12.25 V x 1.65 A = 20 W
19:17 < docl> How's he gonna get "approximately 46 W" from that?
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19:38 < docl> Hilbertz 1979, pg 5 "One material sample (37) was taken after 42 h and analyzed (Table VI). After electrodeposition, the cathode was dried for 22 h at 200°F. Weiht of the cathode was 184.5 g. Thus 88.3 g of material was precipitated with an electric input of approximately 46 W, giving the approximate value of 1.9 kg of accreted mass per 1 kW expended."
19:40 < docl> Hmm. Fig 10 shows it starting at something like 7.5 amps. How is he getting that from a 1.65 amp battery?
19:43 < docl> p 1: "The current was supplied by a car battery and measured 12.25 V/1.65 A at the beginning of the experiment, and 3.8 V/170 mA at the termination"
19:48 < docl> My guess is that he twisted the dial on his oscilliscope so that 1.65 amps looks like 7.5 on a scale of 10, and these curves are all relative, the numbers on the left of the figures are bogus.
19:55 < docl> Eh, never mind my argument about the amps, it's stupid. Current is based on resistance, so if they measured it that's just the resistence of the meter.
20:00 < docl> assuming the numbers are valid, avg 4.6 amps and 10 volts would give 46 W, and in 42 h that's 1932 Wh
20:03 < docl> and 1.932 kWh/0.0883 kg gives us 22 kWh/kg
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22:37 < fltrz> kanzure, I was thinking the same thing (at least if I understand correctly: selection pressure for even longer incubation periods)
22:54 < nmz787> .title https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0315/v1
22:54 < saxo> In Search of Preventative Strategies: Novel Anti-Inflammatory High-CBD Cannabis Sativa Extracts Modulate ACE2 Expression in COVID-19 Gateway Tissues[v1] | Preprints
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--- Log closed Fri May 22 00:00:28 2020