--- Log opened Tue May 26 00:00:31 2020
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01:10 < TMA> fenn: the software is not your property. it is licensed, not sold. you can modify your calculator (the hardware) in any way you like (say put stickers on it) but you cannot modify the software, because it is not yours
01:25 < TMA> the whole concept of individual people having some rights just because they exist (natural rights) is becoming increasingly more troublesome.
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02:19 < fenn> if i'm expected to put my own operating system on a piece of hardware i bought, then there should be a way to do that
02:20 < fenn> instead companies go to great lengths to prevent you from doing that
02:22 < fenn> you can't have it both ways. either the software is part of what i bought or it's not
02:24 < fenn> i think it's actually illegal to "circumvent" said attempts to prevent you from installing your own OS, as per the DMCA
02:27 < fenn> also the concept of "ownership" doesn't legally extend to intangible things. there are only patents, copyrights, and trademarks
02:28 < fenn> "intellectual property" is a myth that is being pushed by certain interests
02:28 < fenn> you don't need to agree to a software license in order to use the software
02:31 < fenn> if you feel like it, you can modify the series of bits on your hard drive so that it doesn't show the EULA text, and instead displays some nice ascii cat pictures
02:32 < fenn> then you click "i accept" and nobody cares because it's just you clicking a button on your computer screen
02:32 < fenn> it was never a legal contract in the first place
02:33 < fenn> "Recently, publishers have begun to encrypt their software packages to make it impossible for a user to install the software without either agreeing to the license agreement or violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA)"
02:34 < fenn> the real problem here is that democracy is broken and nobody gives a shit about anything
02:45 < fenn> also legal systems are inconsistent
02:49 < fenn> ugh ninth circuit court further muddying the waters
02:49 < fenn> "three considerations that we may use to determine whether a software user is a licensee, rather than an owner of a copy. First, we consider whether the copyright owner specifies that a user is granted a license. Second, we consider whether the copyright owner significantly restricts the user’s ability to transfer the software. Finally, we consider whether the copyright owner imposes notable
02:49 < fenn> use restrictions."
03:03 < fenn> "If that's right, then not only don't you own the software you buy, but any copyright owner can simply recite the magic words and effectively outlaw libraries"
03:11 < fenn> "In the European Union, the European Court of Justice held that a copyright holder cannot oppose the resale of a digitally sold software, in accordance with the rule of copyright exhaustion on first sale as ownership is transferred"
03:11 < fenn> "EU Directive 2009/24/EC expressly permits trading used computer programs."
03:12 < docl> fenn: free state project -- that's where all the libertarians move to NH? I thought they had some modest success, a few thousand people moved?
03:12 < fenn> it took 20 years for anything to happen
03:13 < docl> probably the libertarian mindset. like herding cats, lots of vocal individualism, nothing getting done
03:13 < fenn> i doubt it's anything particular to libertarians
03:13 < fenn> it's just really hard to get anything done on the internet
03:13 < docl> maybe just utopian thinking in general
03:14 < fenn> everyone's like "yeah, fuck the state!" and then goes back to their day jobs in the morning
03:14 < docl> yup
03:18 < docl> partly a money thing though
03:18 < fenn> i think it's mostly a coordination problem
03:19 < docl> well yes. but then again, what isn't?
03:19 < fenn> the entire field of engineering
03:20 < fenn> science, art, large parts of nature
03:20 < docl> hmm. isn't engineering a bunch of little coordination problems involving physical components?
03:20 < fenn> that's "integration" :D
03:21 < docl> ooooh
03:21 < fenn> but seriously, not everything is a coordination problem, although i can see how some people might come to view the world that way
03:23 < fenn> it was probably a mistake to have a fixed "20,000 committed libertarians" as the triggering event for everyone
03:23 < fenn> some people would be willing to move at 2,000, others at 200,000
03:24 < fenn> by setting it that high they prevented anybody from moving to NH at all for 20 years
03:24 < fenn> whereas if people had moved they would likely have generated more publicity and momentum
03:24 < fenn> i mean if a small number of the interested people had moved, say those who would have put their trigger point at 2,000 or below
03:25 < docl> hmm. what bennies do they offer? help finding a job, that kind of thing?
03:28 < docl> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project
03:28 < saxo> "The Free State Project (FSP) is a political migration movement founded in 2001 to recruit at least 20,000 libertarians to move to a single low-population state (New Hampshire, selected in 2003) in order to make the state a stronghold for libertarian ideas." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project
03:28 < docl> "In 2012, elected participants wrote and passed House Bill 418 which requires state agencies to consider open source software and data formats when making acquisitions.[34] However, it died in the Senate.[35]"
03:29 < docl> Hey that's more political influence than libertarians usually have.
03:29 < fenn> okay maybe it wasn't a total flop
03:30 < fenn> it was a total flop for as long as i was paying attention to it
03:33 < docl> I sort of wonder if bitcoin money changed the landscape
03:33 < docl> since the early adopters were disproportionately libertarians
03:36 < fenn> how would "help finding a job" even work in practice?
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03:56 < fenn> "The Free Staters need to start breeding like Mormons. Within a generation or two, the takeover of NH will be complete."
03:56 < fenn> hell if it's going to take 18 years either way
03:57 < fenn> would probably backfire
04:09 < docl> well, most people don't get a job by looking in the want-ads, they get it by talking to people they know. like, at church or something. so if FSP people living in NH tend to message the people they know in the FSP online "hey, I found a job you might be interested in", it could lead to exponential growth.
04:10 < docl> especially if they offer to help finding a place to live, and other things one needs to do when moving
04:15 < fenn> i thought it would be something like: Alice starts a business in NH, and only hires people from the free state project
04:16 < fenn> this is risky because government can just make laws targeting your business
04:17 < fenn> how people get jobs is a big mystery to me
04:17 < docl> eh, that could only work after a certain scale. a staffing agency that preferentially targets libertarian candidates and matches them to local businesses needs might be possible.
04:19 < docl> it's kind of opaque to me as well. getting myself to dress up my resume and post it online was a major chore. my current job is the first I've gotten that way, so I was skeptical that it would work. 20 years technically being part of open source project that technically involves C/C++ ended up making the difference. a recruiter called me up and arranged the interview with the company.
04:20 < fenn> "20 years C++ experience" huh
04:20 < docl> previous big job was found during email conversation with a transhumanist guy who happened to also be a software entrepreneur
04:21 < docl> that was 9 years experience, but as a call center / tech support guy, not software dev
04:22 < docl> also, I went back to school (3 different community colleges really) and got an associate's degree, which probably helped a bit
04:23 < fenn> anyway back to your original topic of planned cities, i just can't imagine any small local government willingly embracing such a plan if it comes from outside
04:24 < fenn> and then you are going to be fighting the county and state governments every step of the way, assuming you manage to convert the existing municipal council
04:24 < docl> hmm. one possible way to do this is start the charter city in the middle of nowhere. roko had a thread on that last week or so, how much easier it would be to settle Western Australia than Mars.
04:25 < fenn> how about Western Sahara, which is only technically part of Morocco
04:26 < fenn> (i'd rather live in western australia personally)
04:26 < fenn> the thing is, everywhere's occupied by hostile forces
04:26 < fenn> as soon as you have something valuable, or appear to be a threat to the existing power structure, they'll come and kill you
04:27 < fenn> and there's no way to slowly build up military power without incurring a different sort of wrath
04:28 < docl> yeah, appearing valuable is part of why I think it needs to be production focused. also, offer things like free education so that emigrants tend to be valuable to the countries they move to.
04:29 < fenn> huh
04:29 < fenn> appearing valuable is what gets you killed, if that wasn't clear
04:29 < docl> ah, I misunderstood
04:29 < fenn> they want to cut open the goose that lays the golden egg, to get at the gold that must be inside it
04:30 < docl> well, you want to be valuable *to* the local power structures
04:31 < ffranr_> Benchmarks for open source software packages which parse files in various formats from the Protein Data Bank (PDB): https://github.com/jgreener64/pdb-benchmarks
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04:32 < docl> seems like violence is less likely to be the big issue in WA than the sahara
04:35 < fenn> i guess i'm making a bunch of assumptions about your goals that probably don't apply
04:36 < fenn> making a wealthy city under the boot of oppression just doesn't sound that enticing to me
04:36 < fenn> business as usual
04:37 < fenn> there's no opportunity to really fix anything
04:38 < docl> abstractly speaking, my main goal is proof of concept for self replicating machines. prove that rapid duplication of productive capacity is possible. it would also be pretty cool to have a place that is nicer to live than the rest of the world.
04:38 < fenn> you can make a replicator anywhere
04:38 < fenn> the city is the replicating unit? in order to make this happen you'll need to severely restrict trade
04:39 < docl> the time tested solution is put a bunch of human labor into the replicator and wait a few years. how far can that be accelerated? does human labor have inherent limitations that force it to take several years per duplication?
04:39 < fenn> because of the law of comparative advantage, trade will happen, your city will quickly become specialized and incapable of replication (if it ever got there in the first place)
04:39 < docl> (i.e. industry being the replicator)
04:41 < fenn> human labor is duplicated by humans duplicating, which takes about 18 years (or less i suppose, with different assumptions or genetic engineering)
04:42 < fenn> i think you meant to say "leverage" or something
04:45 < docl> with immigration (and incentives) we could achieve arbitrarily high population growth within certain limits.
04:47 < fenn> well australia is notoriously anti-immigration
04:48 < docl> comparative advantage as a pressure to specialize does probably mean you have to regulate import/export, so that factors into the economic planning. I think a generalized (many specialties modularly represented) system is more feasible with a large population though.
04:48 < docl> hmm. if we are mainly pulling people *from* australia (as a polity, not physical continent) rather than exporting them *to*, they might be in favor
04:49 < fenn> i'm dubious of the value of demonstrating that humans can do useful work
04:50 < fenn> for one, it's been done already. and currently humans are starting to look obsolete in most fields
04:51 < fenn> if the humans are all computer programmers, there's no particular reason to physically co-locate them
04:52 < docl> agglomeration economies?
04:54 < docl> programming has lots of different specializations, some of which involve working directly with machines. without self repair capable robotic avatars, you need some kind of physical workforce presence.
05:02 < docl> well, the physical workforce could be very small per ton of machinery. and if replication is good enough, you could recycle/replace damaged units instead of repair. not saying replicators can't be civilizationally remote or necessarily need a city built in. just that it's one possible approach to consider. (and could serve the goal of making a nicer than normal place to live.)
05:44 < kanzure> "Custody protocols using bitcoin vaults" https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.11776
06:59 < ffranr> Nice! https://github.com/JSwambo/bitcoin-vault
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07:25 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/DrPhiltill/status/1265129835925508098
07:25 < saxo> This is Johannes Kepler in a letter he wrote in 1610 telling Galileo that they need to do more telescopic observations of the Moon and Jupiter before spacecraft missions start visiting those planets. Yep, this conversation actually happened...in 1610 🤯 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY6kZZJXgAAi3Cc.png (@DrPhiltill)
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13:57 < lsneff> My keyboard pcbs finally arrived!
14:20 < kanzure> .title https://www.xing.com/events/dld-sync-machinery-life-future-human-evolution-2875171
14:20 < saxo> DLD Sync on 'The Machinery of Life & the Future of Human Evolution' | Events bei XING
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--- Log closed Wed May 27 00:00:32 2020