--- Log opened Wed Jul 22 00:00:27 2020
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01:07 < L29Ah> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tu_8tR64Tg
01:08 < L29Ah> 01:27:40]<jrayhawk> true intelligence is wanking about how great our capacity for introspection is until everything else outcompetes us
01:08 < L29Ah> sounds like an outline for Blindsight
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06:32 < lsneff> I really enjoyed reading Blindsight.
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06:46 < L29Ah> dunno, i've read it and i think his philosophy sucks, but otherwise i'm happy people strive to produce hard scifi
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07:20 < kanzure> "Reverse engineering Flash EEPROM memories using scanning electron microscopy" https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/cardis2016_sem.pdf
07:23 < kanzure> https://www.darpa.mil/program/vanishing-programmable-resources
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07:59 < lsneff> L29Ah: Yeah, i understand your point of view, but the most interesting part of it was the space-faring alien species which didn't actually exhibit consciousness.
08:01 < L29Ah> i dunno what does "exhibiting consciousness" even mean
08:02 < L29Ah> probably "not exhibiting consciousness" is "technologically advanced but strange, creepy and communicatively uncooperative as fuck"
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08:03 < L29Ah> (although i remember them doing advances in communication while the meatbags refused to reply)
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08:04 < lsneff> It's been a while since I read the book, but I believe that "not exhibiting consciousness" was actually a key part of the story.
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08:06 < L29Ah> yes, if you're to believe the author that considers consciousness a meaningful concept
08:06 < lsneff> Supposedly, the aliens were extremely intelligent, but in the same way that some future incarnation of gpt3 might be intelligent.
08:07 < lsneff> That's a fair point, but also aside the point.
08:10 < docl> seems like you could be conscious and not seem that way, but also an algorithm could seem that way and not be conscious. an uploaded human mind would definitely be conscious, I think. but would a neural net evolved to pass the turing test reliably?
08:11 < docl> like, there are probably certain processes that reliably happen on an ongoing basis in a wakeful human being that, arguably, would not occur in every possible algorithm that acts convincingly social and has general problem solving capabilities
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08:20 < L29Ah> docl: why do you thing the Turing test has anything to do with consciousness?
08:20 < docl> I think it doesn't, apart from surface appearances
08:20 < docl> i.e. if you had a program that passes the turing test, you might be tempted to think it was conscious.
08:23 < docl> so I think you could have a program that has such a different nature from humans that it should not be considered conscious, but seems like it to some absurd extreme. this would not be true of every possible program though (an upload would be properly conscious, and a subset of possible conscious programs).
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08:29 < docl> the question is whether conscious/sapient/whatever is low hanging fruit in a digital environment vs harder to implement. I sort of assume it is the low hanging fruit in the biological environment, otherwise superintelligent nonconscious entities would probably have evolved first. but I don't expect the easiest to evolve biological stuff to be the same stuff that's easiest to evolve digitally, i.e. cons
08:29 < docl> cious programs might be wildly improbable outside the context of digitally scanned conscious brains.
08:32 < L29Ah> docl: do dolphins consider themselves conscious?
08:32 < docl> probably, yeah
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08:36 < docl> I guess the concern would be that by being filtered for ability to act in ways that resemble being conscious, more algorithms that aren't conscious are excluded, so the probability of a conscious algorithm being selected goes up.
08:36 < L29Ah> i wonder if throwing culturally unconventional logic tasks is a good way for telling gpt3 apart from meatbags
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08:41 < lsneff> I imagine there are many ways to tell gpt3 apart from a human *if* you have access to it (e.g. you're not just reading something it wrote).
08:42 < lsneff> Differentiating gpt3 writings apart from an SEO-optimized blog is probably more difficult.
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08:49 < docl> brains basically originated as an elaborate predator escaping / prey capturing system in a calorie-bounded environment (with sexual selection added in because increased genetic diversity helped evade pathogens). since gpt-3 is a symbol logic manipulator thing that evolved to predict words, it would be surprising if it evolved a comparable kind of consciousness from first principles. like, we have more
08:49 < docl> in common with fruit flies and cockroaches in this regard.
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15:59 < lsneff> There's nothing worse than upstreaming code through emails.
16:02 < L29Ah> nah, upstreaming code through emails is great
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18:44 < lsneff> Respectfully, I disagree.
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21:58 < nmz787> juri_: in my experience, being a biologist just means you have a certain mindset for evaluating problems (in the various subfields) but also are tolerant of low pay and relatively tedious and mostly unskilled laborm but which has critical points that if not followed properly just end in failure
21:59 < nmz787> like, most molecular biology is just pipetting fluids around, measuring things with a scale, cooking stuff... but the moment you touch your forehead and forget to sanitize, or touch your pipet tip to the wall of a jar or the table... you screw everything up
22:00 < nmz787> it's a very strange mix of unskilled labor that needs a lot of training
22:03 < fenn> hint: it's called skilled labor
22:35 < nmz787> yeah but it's actually, mostly, unskilled
22:35 < nmz787> I mean, the few key things aside, it's basically cooking like I did at age 14 in the back of the pizza bar I worked at
23:32 < juri_> and the programming i do every day is similar to what i took in typing class.
--- Log closed Thu Jul 23 00:00:27 2020