--- Log opened Sat Oct 24 00:00:56 2020 01:35 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smigsueqwhshzrcb] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:37 -!- pointfree [sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-acjttydwntgufkzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:38 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tupaqlcfbpvpggej] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:40 -!- pointfree [sid204397@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heubehcssrjxvbru] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:42 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hsuursvvewlhrbjp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:43 -!- potatope [sid139423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rewntuozwiwgkhjv] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:50 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-183-228.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:03 -!- prometheus_1 [~root@88.230.142.95] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:04 -!- prometheus_1 [~root@88.230.142.95] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:41 < nmz787> lsneff: is it not just holography security mark type stuff? 03:42 < fltrz> nmz787, where do you get the nanopipettes or do you make them? 04:17 < archels> lsneff: good idea 05:05 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybtmtzujmjcwpfnk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:32 < docl> L29Ah: nice! 05:35 < L29Ah> i hope that's about metformin 05:39 < docl> I was looking at the low cost AFM thing... although the link didn't work so I googled and found https://cdn.instructables.com/ORIG/F48/7YYU/HUMS9U64/F487YYUHUMS9U64.pdf instead 05:42 < docl> There's a biostasis conference today. Online, thank you corona, so I can attend. 05:50 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwSF5dECa84 05:50 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:22 < docl> McIntyre and Fahy will both be on later today 06:30 < docl> Last speaker just talked about research being done on cytokine storm, which is relevant to covid and hypothermia 06:31 < docl> (McIntyre = aurellem -- comes by here sometimes, did the aldehyde stabilized cryo research) 06:32 < docl> .t http://aurellem.org/ 06:32 < saxo> No title found 06:37 < docl> Aschwin de Wolf will be on in 20min or so. I used to change cages for them when they were operating out of the space that is now used by Oregon Cryonics (Jordan's old dental office). 07:02 < docl> Aschwin goes on now 07:06 < lsneff> nmz787: no, they were referring to it being useful for computing post-moore's law, and for solar panels. They also bought many patents from a nanotech firm in California that appeared to have Merkle and Freitas working for them. 07:07 < docl> Aschwin's book: https://www.alcor.org/docs/cryopreservation-procedures-book.pdf 07:11 < lsneff> docl: thanks for the pdf 07:12 < lsneff> That's from a Chinese group that made afms for educational purposes. 07:12 < lsneff> It appears to basically be the same as this other low cost afm from a company, forget the name 07:13 < docl> Looks to be the same as this: https://www.instructables.com/A-DIY-AFM-Whokshop/ 07:14 < lsneff> Yep 07:14 < lsneff> And here's the company that actually designed and made the parts: https://www.stromlinet-nano.com/ 07:15 < docl> Interesting! 07:16 < lsneff> https://www.stromlinet-nano.com/files/NssemblyAFM%20flyer04.jpg 07:16 < lsneff> Low-cost is relative 07:37 < docl> woah, wonder what kind of markup they are looking at... materials can't cost that much 07:39 < docl> I notice they seem to replace the concrete + inner tube with a spiral spring thing. more portable? 07:41 < lsneff> Likely that and also cheaper and easier to put together 07:41 < lsneff> I can't imagine it works too well though 07:41 < lsneff> Yeah, I'm not really sure what the markup is 07:42 < lsneff> It's gotta be like at least 100x on the raw material and parts 07:45 < lsneff> Honestly, scientific equipment has such an insane markup partially because they never use new, cheap tech 07:50 < fltrz> ^ people often go to the founding papers without checking the long tail of hack and improvement papers, which often need a lot of weeding out to determine if the improvement methods and techniques are compatible 07:51 < fltrz> currently reading up on such a long tail for micro EDM 07:52 < fltrz> its funny to read the later papers undoing a lot of the superstition from the earlier papers (a diode preventing reverse current flow because the reverse current was thought to worse relative MMR rate between workpiece and tool) 07:55 < fltrz> theres still a gray zone that I still didn't clear up yet among the papers, on one hand all micro EDM papers recognize that the tool electrode is always also eroding, just at a lower volumetric rate,... but then theres a flurry of papers on reverse EDM that actually allows additive manufacturing on the workpiece, contradicting the mutual relative wear 07:56 < fltrz> I'm trying to understand the boundary regime between mutual eroding EDM and reverse EDM deposition 08:00 < fltrz> also found a lot of awesome trick papers, like how to use a relatively fat electrode (say your thinnest one), and make a thinner one from it: micro EDM drill a hole with your rod as tool in a sheet of metal as workpiece, then change roles (switch voltage / current) and then slowly move the rods in a small circle while they are in the hole in the sheet, this decreases the diameter, and is goood for precision since you are now "grinding" the convex 08:00 < fltrz> rods with a concave cavity with a slightly larger radius of curvature, instead of with a second rod 08:01 < fltrz> then they note you can do the same with an array (say 10 x 10 = 100) , first drill the array of holes simultaneously, then do the small circular motion collectively, end up with 100 electrodes of smaller diameter! 08:01 < fltrz> some of those papers are pure genius 08:02 < docl> fltrz: got any good links? 08:03 < fltrz> doc1: mostly through science direct "micro EDM" , "micro EDM power supply", "micro EDM carbon fiber", etc and similar queries, also some found through semantic scholar 08:06 < fltrz> docl, or you mean the diameter trick specifically? 08:07 < docl> just in general :) 08:08 < docl> think I'll do a scholar walk on micro edm after this cryonics conference 08:14 < fltrz> docl, micro EDM seems very inexpensive as far as I can tell, at least if you are willing to bootstrap your own system 08:15 < lsneff> What's the requirements for power supplies? 08:16 < fltrz> if someone succeeds in bootstrapping micro EDM, but in an open source reprap style philosophy, it could be made real cheap and widely accessible 08:16 < fltrz> lsneff, for micro EDM its typically 1 Watt average power... 08:16 < fltrz> for point milling / drilling 08:16 < lsneff> An open source microedm project would be incredible 08:17 < lsneff> 3d printing has been extraordinary successful because of reprap 08:17 < fltrz> wire tends to be a bit higher, and die sinking more higher because its point, line, surface 08:18 < lsneff> Do you need a high voltage or something? 08:19 < fltrz> lsneff, for macro EDM the voltages are on the order of 10s to hundreds of volts, for micro you can go a lot lower because the gap distance is much smaller, and dielectric strength has units of electric field 08:19 < lsneff> Ah, cool, no problem then 08:20 < fltrz> but I do see that a lot of micro EDM still use ~100V for tens or hundreds of nanoseconds in a pulse, it guess its still advantageous to deposit the microJoule in as short a timespan as possible 08:21 < lsneff> Yeah, that's probably not a problem 08:21 < fltrz> lsneff, yeah, looks very promising stuff 08:21 < fltrz> with modern MOSFET I also don't see a problem 08:22 < lsneff> Yeah, modern boost convertors are great 08:23 < lsneff> What do you think you could get for minimum feature size on a microedm built using 3d printed parts or aluminum extrusions? 08:23 < lsneff> Couple of microns? 08:24 < fltrz> lsneff, hard to tell, but carbon fiber is usable as electrode (probably not optimal on its own) but that instantly gives ~6 micron or so 08:25 < lsneff> Dope, yeah that'd be awesome functionality for maker spaces 08:27 < lsneff> And that's within capability of 3d printed micro positioners based on my research 08:28 < fltrz> the more I read about this, the more I'm convinced micro EDM is like Santa's little helper, where Santa is mostly photolithography, getting most of the attention (not saying it should get none!) 08:29 < lsneff> nano edm when 08:29 < fltrz> hmm, I don't see it doing nano nano, but I've seen some submicron papers 08:30 < lsneff> Anyhow, I'd love to work on this as well as the afm 08:31 < lsneff> Honestly, we need an alternative to the rationalist community that's just building stuff 08:31 < fltrz> if we can get a basic micro EDM setup reprap style, there'll be a whole economy of machine parts and upgrades, and the material costs will be even lower, and you can probably send most of the parts in letter envelopes 08:31 < docl> yeah... I am working on a site for that 08:33 < fltrz> I don't think it should be our goal to immediately make a perfect device, just publish early and before you know it others will improve resolution 08:33 < lsneff> Well, that's how reprap did it pretty much 08:33 < fltrz> this will also reignite the vitamin discussion for 3d printing 08:33 < lsneff> docl: do you happen to be luke parish? 08:33 < docl> lsneff: yes, that's me 08:33 < lsneff> fltrz: vitamin discussion? 08:34 < lsneff> docl: Ah, good to know 08:40 < fltrz> lsneff, the soft schism between the goal of manufacturing as many subcomponents of 3d printers by 3d printing to reduce the number of parts that need to be sourced, vs the goal of using the 3d printer as a tool. the trade-off between performance and self reproduction 08:40 < lsneff> Oh, I see, yeah 08:41 < fltrz> when the metal vitamins can be made by EDM, and domain specific EDM tools and jigs, say an open wire EDM tool to make metal frames for 3d printers 08:41 < fltrz> then it becomes a "lower vitamin" higher "cellular complexity" workshop of EDM tools and 3d printer 08:41 < docl> cryoprotectant toxicity guy on now on the biostasis livestream 08:43 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwSF5dECa84 08:43 < saxo> Biostasis2020 - YouTube 08:43 < fltrz> once we have open micro EDM tool, people will generalize the design for macro, meso, micro work and generalize across point EDM, wire EDM, die sinking EDM, ... 08:45 < fltrz> it would allow people to experiment with wire EDM on micro scale (low material costs), before considering to upscale to meso, and then macro 08:45 < fltrz> the smaller the workshop the cheaper the hobby 08:46 < lsneff> All that would be very exciting. 08:46 < fltrz> well at least up till micro / submicron boundary 08:48 < fltrz> if in the worst case lockdowns continue for a few years, the user base could be huge, or even without lockdowns, low economical prospects forcing students, undergrads, PhD's etc to find "a real job" combined with such availability will result in them using part of their "real job" money to invest in themselves and their home workshop 08:50 < fltrz> unlike the classical libertarian egalitarian conflict where there is only one brick and mortar large scale factory, and the means of production is expensive by nature, on the small scale the means of production could become dirt cheap 08:51 < docl> Oh, he has been using automated liquid handling to test cyro solutions, as it would otherwise require thousands of pipetting operations 08:53 < juri_> win 35 08:53 < juri_> er. :) 08:54 < docl> automated experiments in general is a huge thing IMO. drmeister at #clasp recently posted that he's using automated mixing of spiroligomers. chemistry + programming ftw :) 08:56 < docl> fltrz: good points. I think there will turn out to be many hidden upsides of the covid crisis, more automated / remote doable science and manufacturing methods being a big one. 08:56 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:acc4:9760:cc8b:6d96] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:57 < docl> also: automated mfg over a broad enough chain = self replicating systems 08:58 < lsneff> People have been working on that for decades, not sure we're anywhere close to self replicating systems 08:58 < docl> the industrial supply chain already kind of is? it's just that it needs human hands at a lot of points. 08:59 < lsneff> The key is humans 09:00 < docl> yes, but that can be remote, which is sort of quasi self replicating 09:03 < lsneff> I suppose, but my guess is that the missing piece is a replacement for human hands 09:03 < lsneff> Like picking up a part and putting it somewhere else, or screwing or gluing to something else 09:04 < docl> there are two workarounds: use things that don't need hands more often (not economical in a non-covid situation) or using the cutting edge robots that are extraordinary dextrous (again, why do it if you can hire a worker). 09:05 < fltrz> lsneff, the original reason for me to get interested in micro EDM is for manufacturing faithful hand-like micro manipulators, the components from different manufacturing modalities can then more easily be combined 09:06 < docl> robert mcintyre is on! 09:06 < fltrz> so prototypes can be assembled by human workers controlling intuitive micromanipulators, while settled designs would of course have dedicated machines composing the objects 09:07 < lsneff> That is very interesting 09:09 < fltrz> so I actually envision the egalitarian workers, owning their own means of production using it in their free time on their own projects, but also earning money working for the libertarian megacorp say online doing the menial tasks of assembling prototypes 09:09 < lsneff> Wow, you've got a while philosophy built on this 09:10 < fltrz> so megacorp can use more of their engineers for actual engineering and offload the boring menial tasks to the wider work force equipped with datagloves 09:11 < fltrz> so when megacorp is not sure exact ideal dimensions / materials / parameters for some device, it can manufacture an N dimensional array of variations of the device, which still needs assembling in a non-settled design, so it can offload that to the wider workforce online 09:13 < fltrz> then once design is settled it can design an automated pipeline that robotically assembles the devices 09:13 < lsneff> So, many people would have workshops that can manufacture pretty much arbitrary things, so corporations would farm out to them? 09:15 < fltrz> lsneff, well I don't think megacorp would be comfortable distributing prototype parts physically (although it would depend on how intellectually sensitive a specific component is), but they could actually come to the conclusion that offloading the assembly or general menial tasks online accelerates R&D with respect to companies that don't, this way the goods are still physically at megacorp sites. 09:16 < fltrz> now since normal workers would be exposed to microfabrication, some of them will be interested in owning their own micro workshop for prototyping, and when they have a business idea, they can construct their own micro factory for it 09:16 < lsneff> Oh, I got you 09:17 < lsneff> So, this is based on the idea that microfabrication is used to manufacture a huge humber of things. 09:17 < lsneff> What are you thinking will be built through this ecosystem? 09:19 < fltrz> thats hard to predict, because unlike previous generations the next generation of normal workers will be exposed to the concepts of microfabrication, and if the above happens also to microfabrication, so their mind will be more expanded 09:21 < fltrz> what I *do* predict is that this will effectively result in people running microfactories competing and being familiar with automation, such that a person can start by proving his worth on the micro scale (where material cost is cheap) and slowly work up to meso and macro scale to get the big money (because we only need so much macroscopic lawn chairs etc) 09:22 < fltrz> so by parts count this will generate a lot of "microscopic overproduction", in an attempt to beat the competitions price points, but in mass this will not be a huge waste compared to the waste in meso and macro scale manufacture 09:24 < fltrz> for macro scale factory running people will not be selected (human selection like solicitation, or financial selection as independent) on the basis of diplome and pedigree, but rather on the basis of performance of smaller scale factories 09:25 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybtmtzujmjcwpfnk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 09:25 < fltrz> if you can't compete in some specialized product in meso or micro scale you simply don't have the track record to run the macro scale factories, nor the money to enter that arena on your own 09:28 < fltrz> regardless of competitive prowess, enthusiasts will have access to the open source tools of microfabriction 09:34 < docl> now fahy is on! that's the guy who vitrified the first whole organ (rabbit kidney) 09:45 < docl> he's showing slides of sem micrographs of vitrified brains 09:57 < docl> ok now that wonderful distraction is over and I can focus on this edm thing... sounds a lot like a nanoscale lathe equivalent, where you can make your own bits 09:59 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ysmfvzntskwqkbsl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 < docl> that trick for making smaller tips from bigger ones by moving in a circle in a hole is particularly interesting. can you make nanoscale bits from macroscale needles? (say tungsten) 10:01 < docl> I imagine the disk piezo nanomanipulators could handle that 10:03 < docl> glue a titanium wire to a sectioned piezo. make a hole in some tin foil. stick the wire in the hole. move in a circle by electrifying the piezo quadrants, while holding the wire at high enough voltage to lose atoms when they get close to the edge... sounds rather simple 10:19 < kanzure> i'll be announcing some hackathon winners here in a few minutes https://wyohackathon.io/vr/sched.html 10:33 < L29Ah> what do the local fans of egalitarian microfabrication think of https://reprap.org/wiki/MetalicaRap 10:33 < L29Ah> ? 10:35 < docl> oooh nice 10:38 < lsneff> > We are now 30 months into the development of a printer capable of printing in all common metals and glass, which can largely print itself. 10:38 < lsneff> Looks pretty cool though 10:46 < lsneff> Seems like they're funding constrained 10:46 < lsneff> https://reprap.org/wiki/MetalicaRap#Crowd_Funding_Support_of_MetalicaRap 10:47 < lsneff> Why are open-source projects always so bad at fundraising 11:06 < fltrz> docl, yeah I think the piezo disc would work, but the end result would be slightly conical, but that could be perfectly ok depending on the purpose. I think the number of micro EDM machines (or rather the number of independent entities operating micro EDM machines is low enough that there's plenty of room for untried innovations 11:07 < fltrz> L29Ah, that looks very cool, thanks for the link 11:18 < fltrz> " 10,000 euro self print/kit price)." :( 11:21 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgmchwharabimewi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:25 < L29Ah> > Design criteria 11:27 < L29Ah> afaiu the most expensive part in it now is a high vacuum pump that can be quite cheap in case of an oil diffusion pump 11:27 < docl> hmm. a multi-disc system might be able to keep the rod straight by correcting the angle dynamically 11:28 < docl> sprengel pump can also be cheap, although people shy away from working with liquid mercury 11:32 < L29Ah> probably can be replaced with a tin-gallium alloy for the shy! 11:33 < L29Ah> gallium is more expensive tho 11:34 < lsneff> Why use micro-edm to etch a tip instead of using etching? 11:34 < lsneff> rather, bulk etching 12:07 < lsneff> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElG6JZkWkAEClo3?format=jpg&name=medium 12:17 < fltrz> lsneff, well theres micro ECM as well, but the reason for CNC control and shaping the electrode is to have say nice cylinders when you need them, because the electrodes wear away the active diameter would change while machining if not cylindrical 12:19 < fltrz> lsneff, another reason is so that you dont really need to mount and unmount a small tip: you can mount a longer fat tip once, then shape the end to a nice fine cylinder and when its almost worn you can repeat the trick with the remaining fat end repeatedly without having to remount electrodes 12:21 < fltrz> EDM is also widely used for making molds btw, so nearly all plastic products trace their origin to the molds which trace their origin to EDM 12:30 < fltrz> with piezo nanopositioninng steppers, is it even necessary to have bearings/guideways? 13:00 < fltrz> this was the article for the "self-drilled holes" technique to use a cylindrical rod and a plate to decrease the cylindrical diameter 13:00 < fltrz> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924013604002596 13:03 < fltrz> it would be neat if someone took all the microfabrication machining tricks and converted them into animations, numbered with an index to find the relevant articles... I'd rewatch it a few times a month just to make sure I will remember trick X when I need it, or to increase the probability of generalizing the trick 13:11 < lsneff> This might be a terrible idea, but I believe it should be possible to request the application that cbn nano technologies sent to the canadian strategic innovation fund through the canadian access to information and privacy act. 13:20 < fltrz> I'm not familiar with cbn nano technologies, or canadian strategic defence fund. why do you think it might be a terrible idea? 13:21 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tupaqlcfbpvpggej] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:23 < lsneff> Well, I'm not sure if those particular documents are available. 13:23 < lsneff> Also, I don't live in canada, so it's not open ot me 13:24 < fltrz> what about it piques your interest? was this some big news I missed? 13:26 < lsneff> They're a company that's been working on atomically precise manufacturing, they bought patents from a stealth californian nanotech startup that ralph merkle worked on, and they've received a lot of money from the canadian government. 13:26 < fltrz> hmm 13:28 < fltrz> have you perused their patents? 13:29 < lsneff> Yes 13:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35 < fltrz> does it clarify how they intend to go about atomically precise manufacturing? 13:38 < lsneff> fltrz: no, but since it's merkle, I suspect top-down 13:38 < lsneff> https://www.obj.ca/article/ottawa-nano-tech-firm-lands-40m-feds-manufacture-better-bills#block-adslotposition2-content-embed:~:text=Other%20fields%20where%20Canadian%20Bank%20Note,change%20that%20some%20day%2C%20he%20suggests. 13:39 < lsneff> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190250187A1/en?inventor=Ralph+C.+Merkle&sort=new 13:41 < fltrz> I never really understood the advanced counterfeiting security features for money: if ordinary people are unable to distinguish, what is the central bank going to do? at most they can detect nation states or perhaps large criminal operations 13:43 < lsneff> It makes sense to me. With nanotech, you could add computers to bills that can hash a key or something to prove the bill is valid. 13:43 < lsneff> Could be as simple as tapping the bill on an nfc reader. 13:44 < fltrz> yeah, I do understand the utility of crypto, I meant the physical security features 13:45 < fltrz> ah, they probably got burnt or paranoid about getting burnt when they discover the RFID loops/tags in the bills 13:45 < lsneff> No, that would be a physical security feature 13:45 < fltrz> right 13:46 < fltrz> "when they ..." with they I was referring to the criminal counterfeiters / populace 13:46 < fltrz> hence need to switch to harder to detect tracing methods 13:48 < lsneff> Oh, I understand, yeah that makes sense 13:48 < lsneff> That's probably it 13:48 < lsneff> They'd need an afm to see these 13:48 < fltrz> at least thats what Im guessing 13:49 < fltrz> could also be posing to scare potential remaining / existing criminal enterprises away 13:51 < TMA> well, there are security features on the current banknotes that are not public 13:51 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raonyguim@109.255.83.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:51 < docl> maybe that's a revenue stream drmeister could be tapping, with his spiroligomer work. make a bunch of molecules that encode hashes readable with some kind of cheap fluorescent tech, dye the bills with a dilute solution 13:52 < lsneff> Honestly, to me it seems like someone who wanted APM to exist convinced some executives that they could use this to make counterfeit proof bills 13:52 < TMA> I have had a chance to peruse a training material for bank employees. I remember that the bills have two sets of invisible ink on them 13:53 < TMA> only the one that is visible under UV is publically known 13:54 < lsneff> What's the other one visible under? 13:55 < TMA> infrared -- certain patterns turn white under infrared 13:57 < docl> Nothing as complex as an individual random hash per bill? 13:57 < TMA> https://possibility.teledyneimaging.com/show-money/ shows how the pattern looks on a EUR 20 13:58 < TMA> docl: nothing of that complexity that would be in a training material for bank teller clerks some ten years ago 13:58 < fltrz> thats publicly known, all the 2 photon absorption phosphor makers proudly explain this on their product pages, and mention that sales are restricted to certain rules 13:59 < TMA> fltrz: our central bank witholds the pattern printed from the banknote description for public consumption 13:59 < fltrz> theres also index cards with such phosphors that are sold to quantum optics lab people for aligning IR lasers with naked eye by converting to VIS 13:59 < fltrz> TMA, yes of course the patterns are secret yeah 14:02 < fltrz> theoretically the phosphors could be scavenged from the limited types of products that are publicly available, but I wouldn't be surprised if sales to manufacturers of such products would be limited according to how hard they make it to extract the phosphors without destroying them 14:03 < fltrz> I can also imagine some non APM method to be used and someone along the chain to the PR department mixed up nanotechnology with APM 14:04 < lsneff> That's possible, but the patents and what the article says to make me think they are actually talking about apm 14:05 < fltrz> yeah, it's also weird that the technology wasn't lucrative on its own, and is being picked up to leave APM'ed markers on banknotes... 14:08 < fltrz> suppose the story is legit, then it wont just be an APM'ed piece of material, it would be placed on a nanoscale marker, in turn placed on a microscale marker, in turn placed on a mesoscale marker, how else do they intend to inspect the notes? 14:09 < fltrz> whole ordeal also sounds expensive inspection wise: for AFM / electron microscopy the feature would have to be on the surface, but that also leaves it more exposed to wear or to covering by dirt 14:09 < fltrz> I'd expect a bank not to outgas quite a bit in vacuum too 14:11 < fltrz> what happens if people place their bills in an ultrasonic cleaner? money laundering could destroy the surface feature 14:13 < lsneff> You wouldn't have to put them on the surface. You could have a nanoscale computer that hashes a hash you send it through light or nfc or something and then output that through an antenna 14:13 < lsneff> That's just one thing out of many possibilities when you have apm 14:13 < fltrz> so then its not just APM but an APM'ed computer? 14:14 < fltrz> have atomically precise computers even been designed regardless of manufacture? 14:15 < lsneff> They did talk about computers in the article 14:15 < lsneff> No, because there isn't any point to unless apm is right around the corner 14:16 < fltrz> adding the 2 numbers together: $252M, thats loose change for AMD, intel, nvidia, ... why wouldn't they pick it up? 14:17 < lsneff> That's a great question and does imply that it's not currently possible. 14:18 < lsneff> However, it's easy to find technologies that should've been picked up by an incumbent, but weren't. 14:18 < fltrz> "Other fields where Canadian Bank Note researchers believe their study of tiny things could achieve giant breakthroughs include medicine and high-speed computing. " hmmm 14:19 < fltrz> sounds like those researchers are fans just like we are 14:19 < lsneff> Indeed it does 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:30 < nmz787> fltrz: made them with a sutter instruments pipette puller, then used my FIB to determine the inner diameters and cut to size for a few 14:33 < nmz787> Ben Krasnow did a great half-DIY EDM setup and put it up on youtube 14:35 < nmz787> fltrz: Intel mostly usually only invests in tech that's pre-competitive (academic research that won't prove profits for 10+ years) or things that are almost profitable. They also usually need to it be very close to their main values, which is CPU cores. 14:36 < nmz787> another method they do is, give a little money to a company as investment, then when the company fails, they offer jobs to the most interesting engineers, buy/license some related patents, then start their own internal effort 14:38 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:38 < nmz787> but in general I'd say Intel is already going after APM in a more natural progression of perfecting their own processes... and it will not likely be atomic pick-and-place any time soon (if ever, unless it's highly parallelizable) because that doesn't scale to mass manufacturing well at face value 14:39 < nmz787> ALD and ALE are already common in their fab tech pipeline 14:39 < nmz787> .wik atomic layer deposition 14:39 < saxo> "Atomic layer deposition (ALD) is a thin-film deposition technique based on the sequential use of a gas phase chemical process; it is a subclass of chemical vapour deposition." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_layer_deposition 14:39 < nmz787> .wik atomic layer etch 14:39 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_layer_etch gave 404 | Searched en for 'atomic layer etch' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Https://plasma.oxinst.com/campaigns/technology/atomic-layer-etching gave 404 | Searched en for 'https://plasma.oxinst.com/campaigns/technology/atomic-layer-etching#:~:text=Benefits%20of%20Atomic%20Layer%20Etching%201%20Low%20damage,of%20etched%20features%20%28i.e.%20...%20More%20items...%2 14:40 < nmz787> .wik area selective atomic layer deposition 14:40 < saxo> "Metal–organic frameworks (MOFs) are a class of compounds consisting of metal ions or clusters coordinated to organic ligands to form one-, two-, or three-dimensional structures. They are a subclass of coordination polymers, with the special feature that they are often [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal%E2%80%93organic_framework 14:40 < nmz787> .g area selective atomic layer deposition 14:40 < saxo> https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemmater.8b04926 14:40 < nmz787> welp, anyway those are relevant search terms 14:57 < lsneff> http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=70 14:57 < lsneff> .t 14:57 < saxo> Is mechanosynthesis feasible? The debate continues. – Soft Machines 15:00 < docl> some of that stuff Jones worries will never happen already has happened -- electrically driven nanomotors, for example 15:18 * fenn wants a metallicrap 15:19 < fenn> the fastest pooper in the west 15:20 < fenn> humans doing remote micro assembly with robotic manipulators sounds like an extremely temporary situation, until the special purpose AI gets good enough, which probably wouldn't be very long 15:21 < L29Ah> is that an euphemism for "software"? 15:21 < fenn> i also question the desirability of a world where billions of people are still factory line wage slaves 15:21 < lsneff> Anyone here know if carbon mechanosynthesis has actually been performed inorganically? 15:21 < fenn> L29Ah: i imagine software as the kind of program that doesn't require a bunch of training before it's useful 15:22 < fenn> lsneff some proof of concept stuff, specific functional groups but not an entire molecule, as that would require the entire set of tools which hasn't been developed 15:23 < fenn> i think it was merkle working with some other people 15:23 < lsneff> Merkle and Freitas wrote a paper on the toolset, but I'm not aware of them actually performing mechanosynthesis 15:24 < lsneff> The only literature I can find about actual experiments is silicon mechanosynthesis 15:24 < lsneff> Nvm, found some 15:25 < lsneff> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/anie.201905670 15:26 < fenn> it was longer ago than that, i guess 2010 ish 15:26 < kanzure> .title 15:26 < saxo> Error - Cookies Turned Off 15:26 < lsneff> Actually no, that's just ball milling 15:27 < fenn> "mechanosynthesis of odd-numbered tetraaryl[n]cumulenes" by ardila-fierro, bolm, and hernandez 15:27 < lsneff> Yeah, that one doesn't actually use an SPM 15:29 < kanzure> docl: what did mcintyre talk about? 15:29 < docl> kanzure: the nature of preservation in general, the way things are stored in the brain 15:31 < docl> looks like the video is no longer public :( 15:32 < docl> looks like the webinar site doesn't have the recording available either 15:34 < fenn> often conference organizers will chop the day's talks up into smaller videos 15:35 < fenn> lsneff: i guess it would have been philip moriarty's lab at university of nottingham, but i can't find any actual results 15:36 < lsneff> They apparently had success with mechanosynthesis of silicon 15:36 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raonyguim@109.255.83.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37 < fenn> "Toggling Bistable Atoms via Mechanical Switching of Bond Angle" sounds related 15:37 < fenn> https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.106.136101 15:37 < fenn> oh that's silicon 15:38 < docl> apparently back in the roadmap days schafmeister was the main proponent of self-assembly https://sst.semiconductor-digest.com/2007/11/roadmap-for-productive-nanosystems-rolled-out-at-two-day-workshop/ 15:41 < fenn> https://foresight.org/roadmaps/working_group.html https://foresight.org/roadmaps/index.php 15:43 < fenn> what the hell happened? i haven't heard anything out of foresight in years 15:43 < lsneff> It split off from drexler 15:43 < lsneff> The entire field died 15:44 < fenn> it's not like drexler is the only person with any ideas 15:44 < kanzure> docl: that's why you gotta type a transcript 15:44 < docl> J Stors Hall wrote a book about why we don't have flying cars yet 15:44 < kanzure> one of the gmaxwell videos has vanished 15:44 < docl> kanzure: sorry :( 15:45 < lsneff> Yeah, drexler didn't really have that many ideas tbh 15:45 < kanzure> foresight institute spams me every day with conference links 15:45 < lsneff> But, it's difficult to get funding for things when there aren't any positive results 15:46 < kanzure> lsneff: have you considered non-nano cad? 15:46 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:46 < fenn> kanzure he's going to do some browser based bullshit and we'll be stuck with it forever 15:46 < lsneff> Like writing one? 15:46 < kanzure> yes writing one 15:46 < docl> I bet schafermeister could get funding to make spiroligomers into bitcoin wallets or something. no reason that wouldn't work. he has funding from the dod to look for catalysts to break down sarin though. 15:46 < lsneff> There are a billion cad programs 15:46 < kanzure> fenn: nothing can stop that from happening 15:47 < fenn> there are like 3 usable open source cad programs and they leave a lot to be desired 15:47 < kanzure> lsneff: there are not, actually. there's only like five: parasolid, acis, opencascade, and a few others. 15:47 < lsneff> Ah, you mean geometry kernels 15:48 < lsneff> I'm not smart enough to write a geometry kernel, people made careers out of those 15:48 < lsneff> and phds, etc 15:48 < kanzure> certainly not with that attitude you can't 15:50 < lsneff> Perhaps so, but I'm not sure why I'd be a good candidate to do that. 15:50 < lsneff> I think solvespace has an open source geometry kernel 15:54 < lsneff> At the very least, you'll be pleased to know I haven't been working on the nano cad 15:54 < lsneff> After talking to a number of people, I've been convinced it's probably not physically relevant 16:08 < lsneff> So no worries that you'll be stuck with it forever 16:09 < docl> I wonder if there's low hanging fruit in adding chemical modeling stuff in clasp. I think they still use pngs imported from chemdraw 16:09 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44 < kanzure> lsneff: the thing fenn is worried about being stuck with is a web browser 16:49 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jibgdxhihfjfvdxu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:52 < docl> emacs in gui mode can do graphics. I wonder if anyone has written the libs for anything 3d in it 16:54 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jibgdxhihfjfvdxu] has quit [] 17:00 < lsneff> kanzure: the code I wrote runs equally well natively as well as in the browser 17:07 < lsneff> such is one of the great things about rust 17:24 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Quit: preview] 17:29 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:59 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:acc4:9760:cc8b:6d96] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:10 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-172-138.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:15 -!- sanehatter [sanehatter@gateway/vpn/mullvad/sanehatter] has quit [Quit: sanehatter] 18:34 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-172-138.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37 < docl> .t https://www.longevity.technology/building-an-artificial-immune-system/ 18:37 < saxo> Building an artificial immune system - Longevity.Technology 18:38 < docl> sounds like he's really just talking about infallable viral testing in the near term rather than an injectable spiroligomer based immune system, probably because the fda would have things to say about the latter 18:39 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-172-138.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:40 < docl> even that would make a huge difference for ending covid. my wife got three negative tests while symptomatic. those antibody tests aren't great. 19:25 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ysmfvzntskwqkbsl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:55 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sczppctrewkgwlii] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:01 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgmchwharabimewi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:02 < lsneff> https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/8142 20:14 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-llqenkvtbvyziqyg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:37 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Quit: preview] 21:47 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-llqenkvtbvyziqyg] has quit [] 22:35 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sczppctrewkgwlii] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:32 -!- dustinm [~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47 -!- dustinm [~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sun Oct 25 00:00:57 2020