--- Log opened Tue Oct 27 00:00:58 2020 00:23 -!- sanehatter_ [sanehatter@gateway/vpn/mullvad/sanehatter] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23 -!- sanehatter_ [sanehatter@gateway/vpn/mullvad/sanehatter] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:33 -!- sanehatter__ [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:35 -!- sanehatter_ [sanehatter@gateway/vpn/mullvad/sanehatter] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:18 < jrayhawk> thank you for making the internet a slightly more usable place 01:18 < jrayhawk> or, i suppose, the web in particular 01:29 < jrayhawk> https://github.com/asciinema/asciinema huh 01:30 < jrayhawk> .title 01:30 < saxo> GitHub - asciinema/asciinema: Terminal session recorder 📹 03:02 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@2a01:e0a:5b9:7840:6600:6aff:fe5f:9d6] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:13 -!- sanehatter__ [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has quit [Quit: -] 03:24 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:56 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:59 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:14 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:01 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:16 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:20 -!- fltrz [~fltrz@109.236.129.101] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:49 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:52 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:10 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-faxzokxjimsxbsoa] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:52 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23 < lsneff> Place where I used to work getting annihilated (rightly) by the court of public opinion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24900186 09:18 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:21 -!- preview_ [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:45 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/lsparrish/status/1321102202719580161 10:45 < saxo> Some kids are born with $millions in future medical costs, others with minimal medical needs. Are those with big future medical costs born into slavery? (@lsparrish) 10:49 < L29Ah> all humans are born with infinity in future medical costs 10:49 < L29Ah> /thread 11:02 < TMA> L29Ah: that is probably valid for those attaining immortality, not so for the plebeians 11:11 < lsneff> my slightly ironic take: all humans are born into slavery to biological imperatives 11:35 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:53 < kanzure> not quite what i was getting at. i think the definition of slavery there is wrong, and you could argue for minimizing medical needs without invoking slavery. 11:53 < fltrz> I must agree with L29Ah, that the concept is ill defined: simply never spend a dime on someones medical problems and his lifetime medical costs turn out to be 0 11:55 < fltrz> if everyone is born with the (tradeable) right to conceive 2 half children, the those who desire more children have to buy the right from those who don't or can't make use of their right biologically 11:55 < fltrz> currently at least in Belgium, theres been quite a lot of noise about super expensive treatment for rare diseases of children 11:56 < fltrz> if I was a child with a super rare disease with expensive treatment, then yes, i'd trade away a fraction of my future right to bear children in exchange for life 11:57 < fltrz> because that right is useless anyway if I die before having children 11:57 < kanzure> too much regulation. 11:57 < kanzure> back it off by a factor of like a million 11:58 < fltrz> not sure how to define the medical cost with zero regulation, I think mine is the least regulated form where the individual maintains self determination 11:59 < fltrz> and government has no business defining the medical cost of person x or y 12:00 < kanzure> but presumably you had someone enforcing those fractional rights 12:00 < fltrz> (the number 2 for the number of biological children, is in fact a number decided on by provably informed democracy, so the democracy can choose to grow, stay stable or shrink 12:02 < fltrz> kanzure, yes, enforcement is as simple as needing to sequence DNA to get your average rent, and if you are the 3rd child of a couple who has not bought the right to a third child, it simply gets deduced from the parent's average rent, so they effectively have no average rent for x years 12:02 < fltrz> the children of course still have their average rents 12:02 < fltrz> (if they can prove they understand their rights, and are free to abandon their parents) 12:03 < fltrz> (just like all other children) 12:13 < fltrz> this also reduces rippling effects like baby boomers etc: when people make lots of children the value of the tradeable childrights increase, and when people make less children than desired the value lowers so those who want more children will have an easier time buying up those rights 12:15 < fltrz> you don't need to trade a full halfright or whatever, you can trade away 0.3 childrights, for money, and at a later time buy it back 12:17 < fltrz> regarding healthcare, just leave it up to the individual how much they invest in their own health using their average rent (+ possibly extra income from work). then we don't need government regulations, doctor's regulations deciding who's to live and who's to die, don't need insurance plans leaching money for playing middle man etc... 12:28 < docl> lives are worth $16M, so it's not zero cost if they die early from lack of medical care 12:29 < fltrz> kanzure, I'm certainly interested in hearing how less regulation can be achieved, my ideas were never set in stone and changed through others convincing me of the need of certain properties / from the consideration of "attack models" 12:30 < fltrz> docl, I'm not explaining my valuation of an individuals life 12:30 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/robinhanson/status/1320070951648792576 12:30 < saxo> Ave US income is $67K, ave lifespan is 78.5. So if life-yr is worth 3.0 yrs income, then life at birth is worth $16M. Times 862K US abortions/yr is $13.7T/yr lost to abortions. If new lives are only worth $10M, then is $8.6T/yr lost. Still huge. https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2019/09/us-abortion-rate-continues-drop-once-again-state-abortion-restrictions-are-not-main (@robinhanson) 12:30 < fltrz> but the health cost 12:32 < docl> He goes on to suggest that parents could take out a loan against their child's future earnings to disincentivize abortion (presumably, birth control in general) and increase the population significantly 12:33 < docl> (Which he portrays as roughly the same thing as the govt paying procreation grants and taxing it later) 12:34 < fltrz> who issues the loan? the government? a commercial bank? so someone is sitting somewhere deciding who gets to have children or not? 12:34 < docl> (this got interpreted by many as an endorsement of some kind of slavery -- being born into debt. to which he responds that we are already apparently born into around 300k in national debt.) 12:34 < lsneff> What average is that? I suspect the average income is being pulled up a lot by the tail. 12:42 < fltrz> in other news intelligent cows refuse to reproduce, even though their value to the economy is obvious 12:44 < fltrz> some farmers argue the abortion centers for cows ought to be criminalized 13:15 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:17 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-182-106.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:19 -!- ShellcatZero [~ShellcatZ@97-122-182-106.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:21 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21 -!- sanehatter_ [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:29 < nmz787> if the kid is nothing but a loser and drain on society, then they're a net loss 13:33 < docl> apparently the avg kid is 67k/yr benefit to society? 13:34 < docl> maybe just buy insurance before you concieve, when you don't know which it will be yet? 13:36 < nmz787> you can buy loser insurance? 13:37 < docl> not yet, but it sounds like a typical hansonian proposal to start offering it 13:37 < nmz787> mmm-bop! 13:57 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:58 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: mgxm 13:58 -!- Netsplit over, joins: mgxm 14:15 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moyabKVvY1c 14:15 < saxo> Citizen Bio (2020) Official Trailer | SHOWTIME Documentary Film - YouTube 14:18 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:40 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:56 < strages> docl: this is literally the plot of In Time https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1637688/ 15:00 < lsneff> Has anyone tried doing electrodeposition with an AFM tip? 15:00 < lsneff> I originally thought STM, but I don't think those work in water since it's conductive. 15:02 < lsneff> I was looking at the Feynman Path that foresight has some articles about, and I'm thinking we can probably skip most levels and do additive EDM at just a few nm with some sort of scanning probe microscope. 15:08 < fltrz> lsneff, with electrodeposition what exactly do you mean? like faradayic conduction of ions to deposit them onto a conductor? or reverse EDM? if the latter, I still haven't read enough to understand reverse EDM since most papers state the both workpiece and tool electrode wear away during machining, so not sure under which conditions tool material can be deposited onto the workpiece to do additive manufacturing, if you reach a better understanding of 15:08 < fltrz> the conditions determining the boundary between additive reverse EDM vs mutual wear in micro EDM I would be happy to reach that understanding 15:11 < fltrz> its certainly clear that both mutual wear, and reverse EDM are possible as they are both described in the literature, it's just that I haven't grokked yet how we can find out if either both workpiece and tool wear away to swarf, or if tool wears away depositing onto workpiece 15:11 -!- preview_ [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Quit: preview_] 15:13 < lsneff> Ah, I don't actually know. I was just assuming that it was possible and the literature was clear about how to do that. 15:15 < lsneff> The electrode is so minimal that I would think you might need ions in the solution to be deposited instead of parts of the tooltip being deposited on the surface. 15:20 < fltrz> electroforming takes ions from the tool to the workpiece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroforming 15:20 < fltrz> by faradayic electrochemical conduction 15:21 < fltrz> while reverse EDM uses sparks to heat the electrode and melt and vaporize it, some of it depositing on the workpiece 15:23 < fltrz> I *do* understand that the heating is asymmetric, because electrons weigh less than ions, and electrons carry the most thermal energy, them being lighter 15:24 < fltrz> but I'm not sure why in conventional non-reverse micro EDM both wear out more than gets deposited, while in reverse micro EDM one electrode has net gain of material... 15:25 < fltrz> I suspect it may be due to asymmetry in size / area of tool vs workpiece making it easier to melt and vaporize the thin small tool tip without melting the big half volume surface of the workpiece? 15:26 < fltrz> that might be what allows reverse EDM to be possible 15:27 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuyzstzxxenzflpa] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 < fltrz> or perhaps they intentionally set process parameters such that instead of trying to get most energy to be dissipated in during dielectric breakdown (as opposed to during the arcing afterwards) in non-reverse EDM, perhaps reverse EDM intentionally lets it arc more energy than in the spark? but that seems unlikely to me, as you'd get lots and lots of accidental spotwelding of the tool to the workpiece 15:31 < fltrz> which brings up the interesting possibility of having 2 EDM tips: one to intentionally weld the tool at a controlled position, while the second is used to micro EDM the tool say halfway between workpiece and tool electrode holder 15:33 < fltrz> huh thats interesting for fixing accidental welds by micromachining the tool away as close as possible to the workpiece.. 15:34 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:51f2:83e1:b467:bc75] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:35 < lsneff> So, there's no way to have a solution with metal ions, and then run a conductive tooltip over a conductive surface to have ions be deposited from the solution to the surface without any major changes in the tooltip? 15:35 < fltrz> lsneff, I think we could learn more about the difference in nature between normal EDM and micro EDM by searching for the earliest articles mentioning reverse EDM 15:36 < fltrz> lsneff, I don't know, but I know thats not what faradayic conduction does, but obviously something like that must be possible, because layers of metal can be deposited out of solution without using electrochemical current to drive it 15:39 < fltrz> perhaps something like taking 2 transparent cells, one with a metal solution and the other with a chelating agent, measure optical transmission spectrum, then mix the 2 together so the chelating agent binds to the metal, then measure transmission spectrum, then look at the difference to find the absorption spectrum which may force a bound chelator + metal to give up its metal? 15:40 < fltrz> so when you have a mixture with chelating agent under but close to saturation of the metal, and then shining the wavelength at a dot, then it might locally force the metal to drop out of solution? 15:41 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:41 < fltrz> don't think its worth investigating, since we know reverse micro EDM is *somehow* possible under the right conditions 15:42 < fltrz> it just requires literature study to understand where micro EDM ends and reverse micro EDM starts 15:43 < fltrz> lol, perhaps it reverse EDM *always* occurs for small electrode and larger thermal mass workpiece when switching polarity, and perhaps reverse indicates the simple polarity switch? 15:44 < fltrz> I guess this is just an email away when contacting a random reverse EDM author 15:44 < fltrz> but their lips might be glued with NDA-acrylate 15:48 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51 < docl> that sounds a lot like electroplating, but I am probably just stating the obvious. I wonder how uniform the electrodeposition is though 15:52 < L29Ah> look at your shower head 15:52 < L29Ah> it has copper deposited on plastic via some magic, then chromium electroplated over it 15:53 < fltrz> yes electroforming = electroplating as far as I know 15:54 < fltrz> L29Ah, can think of 2 ways to coat metal on plastic, I think everyone's read that Feynman made a contribution there 15:54 < fltrz> I think one way is chemical deposition, like how mirrors used to be silvered 15:55 < fltrz> another might be applying electrostatic charge to the plastic and the dunking in solution 15:55 < fltrz> a third method might be Kelvin water dropper (like to charge droplets carrying metal) 15:56 < fltrz> method 2 might work because the plastic once electrostatically charged and equilibrated is poorly conductive so a quick dunk should evenly coat it over the surface 15:57 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:57 < fltrz> but I have decided long ago that I will not torment my head too much about how plastics are plated with metal, let alone, what Feynman's solution was 15:58 < L29Ah> also conductive paint then electroplating 15:58 < fltrz> probably using an electron beam lol 15:58 < fltrz> yes conductive paint could work 15:59 < L29Ah> i'd like some easy way to do it with my 3d printed parts 15:59 < L29Ah> so i can coat them with nickel that's mechanically badass 16:00 < fltrz> I think the biggest problem with nearly all these methods is that as soon as parts of the plastic get a metallic coating while others dont, then the plating methods deposit more metal where there is already metal because of the higher resistance where there is a lack of / very thin disconnected patches of metal 16:00 < fltrz> so it tends to be unstable 16:00 < L29Ah> somehow shower heads get it right 16:00 < fltrz> yeah 16:01 < fltrz> thats why I suspect traditional non-electro chemistry, like silvering mirrors 16:02 < fltrz> the mist of charged droplets should also work since the droplets just randomly land on the plastic 16:02 < fltrz> because their mass is much higher than that of a single ion, so that the droplets dont really prefer the already coated parts 16:04 < fltrz> L29Ah, you could try that by first building a working Kelvin water dropper, then use a copper sulphate solution instead of water 16:04 < fltrz> the positive drops will carry a surplus of copper, and the negative ones a surplus of sulphate ions 16:05 < fltrz> when the surface geets too wet perhaps blow off the solution with compressed air, and then reinsert in mist 16:07 < fltrz> L29Ah, oh, I just read about vacuum metallization... 16:08 < fltrz> "To metalize a piece of plastic, several common methods are used: vacuum metallization, arc and flame spraying, or plating. " 16:09 < fltrz> in vacuum is just PVD 16:10 < fltrz> i'm fucking dumb, I knew thats how they coated insects for SEM, but somehow plastic is not an insect so it didn't click 16:11 < fltrz> "Arc spraying is similar to flame spraying, but the power source is different. Instead of depending on a combustion flame, arc spraying derives its energy from an electric arc. Two wires, composed of the metallic coating material and carrying DC electric current, touch together at their tips—the energy that releases when the two wires touch heats and melts the wire, while a stream of gas deposits the molten metal onto the surface of the substrate 16:11 < fltrz> , creating a metal coat. Like flame spraying, the resulting coating typically suffers from high porosity." 16:12 < fltrz> probably requires inert gas to prevent the metal from oxidizing 16:34 < lsneff> https://fabric8labs.com/ 16:34 < lsneff> .t 16:35 < saxo> Fabric8Labs - Next Generation Metal 3D Printing 16:35 < lsneff> "We developed a unique process that is an intuitive combination of two mature technologies: Stereo-Lithography and Electro-Deposition. Using a sophisticated control system, the printer deposits metals, producing parts quickly and effectively at room temperature and pressure. With this disruptive process you can forget everything you know about metal 3D printing. The future is here." 16:41 -!- sanehatter_ [~sanehatte@45.83.220.182] has quit [Quit: -] 16:42 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52 * fenn forgets everything about metal 3D printing 16:52 < fenn> the future is here! wow! that was fast 16:52 < fenn> what was i doing again 16:52 * fenn looks around for his old man pills 16:53 < fenn> oh right, we were implementing dystopian government overreach in order to further our libertarian ideals 16:58 < fenn> what the hell is "reverse EDM"? 17:08 < fltrz> fenn, like EDM but metal from the tool electrod is deposited on the workpiece, so you can do additive manufacturing, making say a column 17:14 < L29Ah> lsneff: looks badass 17:15 < L29Ah> so i suppose they're moving a conductive stick around in a bath of electrolyte 17:15 < L29Ah> above a conductive surface 17:17 < fenn> but... that makes no sense 17:18 < fenn> the reason EDM works at all is due to the difference in durability between the tool and workpiece 17:18 < L29Ah> it's not edm, it's targeted electroplating 17:18 < fenn> any micro explosion that removes material from the tool will remove far more material from the workpiece 17:18 < L29Ah> (i guess; they don't give much info) 17:19 < fenn> i can't find anything about it in the first place 17:19 < fenn> if it's electroplating, don't call it EDM 17:19 < fenn> at best it would be reverse-ECM although that's still awkward and confusing 17:22 < fenn> oh you were talking about fabric8 17:22 < lsneff> Reverse does imply not, which is technically correct. It is, in fact, not EDM 17:25 < lsneff> Yeah, fabric8. I'm curious how they're doing it 17:25 < fenn> am i missing something? do they give any information at all or just "electrochemical additive manufacturing" 17:26 < fenn> clearly you can't electroplate 15kg/hr on a 300 mm plate 17:26 < fltrz> fenn, thats right, if you scroll up you see my same surprisal at reverse EDM, yet it is extensively described in literature 17:27 < fenn> there's a coating process called high velocity oxy-fuel spray 17:27 < fltrz> so I believe its reversing the polarity so the tool wears faster than workpiece, and further because of perhaps larger area to distribute the same current on the workpiece, and because of its larger thermal load it probably receives more metal than it erodes somehow 17:28 < fenn> i don't see why polarity matters 17:28 < fenn> is this something special about it being "micro"? 17:28 < fenn> because the electrons are traveling in straight lines or something 17:29 < fltrz> fenn, the electrons and metal ions accelerate in the plasma gap, but one weighs less and has longer mean free path 17:29 < fenn> is non-micro reverse EDM a thing? 17:29 < fltrz> so if I read correctly its the electrons arriving that carry most heat 17:29 < fltrz> fenn, I don't believe so 17:30 < fltrz> fenn, I have only seen reverse EDM in micro EDM context, but I can't exclude it also existing macro, but I think its only micro 17:30 < fenn> what's the gap size btw? 17:30 < fenn> do you use a dielectric for micro EDM? 17:31 < fltrz> fenn, I am still trying to understand the condition differences that distinguish normal micro EDM vs reverse micro EDM 17:31 < fltrz> yes dielectric, could be fluid, could be air, ... 17:31 < fenn> air doesn't sound particularly optimized 17:31 < fltrz> gap size, or width, or length is the distance between tool surface and workpiece surface 17:32 < fenn> yes but how long is it 17:32 < fltrz> fenn, it does allow for faster flushing, and under certain conditions thus allows for faster machining 17:32 < fenn> instead of air you could be using helium or iodine or whatever 17:32 < fenn> ok iodine would be a bad dielectric 17:33 < fltrz> fenn, also, for macro EDM you dont want small gap sizes and want more energy in the pulse to machine faster, for micro EDM you care more about precision 17:33 < fenn> clearly we have different definitons of "small" which is why i'm asking 17:34 < fltrz> fenn, oh sure, theres certainly better liquids and gases, but its just because its cheap that air is often investigated as well as water and the more usual organic chemistry 17:35 < fenn> "In one approach, a digital generator, controllable within milliseconds, reverses polarity as electro-erosion takes place. That produces an effect similar to electroplating that continuously deposits the eroded graphite back on the electrode." 17:35 < fltrz> fenn, for micro EDM the gap sizes are much smaller than the small gap size of macro EDM, the smaller the gap size the shorter the minimum radius of curvature you can machine away 17:36 < fltrz> fenn, yes, theres also a lot of micro EDM papers investigating the combination of EDM and ECM (electrochemical machining) 17:37 < fltrz> fenn, consider an acidic solution, I'll just use the bad example of water: so there are free H+ and OH-, if you apply a voltage across electrodes in such a solution then OH- will prefer the positive electrode and H+ the negative electrode, so you can see how applying voltages controls local pH 17:39 < fltrz> I used to know a webpage with science demonstration videos where they did something like this and used pH strips to demonstrate this gradient of pH in a liquid with applied voltage 17:39 < fltrz> but it either disappeared or I am unable to find it back 17:39 < fenn> so you think the pH change is driving a precipitation of metal? 17:40 < fenn> or whatever phase of matter graphite is 17:40 < fltrz> fenn, consider the plasma of vaporized metal between workpiece and tool, electrons go one way, and ions are pushed the other way 17:41 < fltrz> fenn, I don't think you can reverse EDM graphite onto metal, but I may be wrong 17:41 < fenn> you'd think ions would be a tiny fraction of the total mass removed 17:42 < fltrz> fenn, even in conventional micro EDM wear both electrodes wear, it was recognized early on that workpiece metal was being deposited onto the tool electrode, but there was still net wear on both 17:43 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:51f2:83e1:b467:bc75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44 < fltrz> fenn, I think that even in reverse EDM the ions deposited are a small fraction of the mass removed 17:45 < fltrz> but larger than in conventional EDM 17:47 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuyzstzxxenzflpa] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:04 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:08 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:10 < fenn> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/10/spacex-starlink-public-beta-begins-its-99-a-month-plus-500-up-front/ "the better than nothing beta" 18:10 < fenn> lol 18:12 < L29Ah> that's actually quite a good price 18:12 < L29Ah> if they don't have any traffic volume limits 18:13 < L29Ah> but that's unlikely to stay like that for long 18:14 < fenn> my ISP has no traffic volume limits, don't see why it would be different 18:14 < kanzure> what does that even mean? 18:15 < kanzure> my internet connection defies all known laws of information theory and communication. 18:19 < fltrz> it does? 18:23 < fenn> it means they don't record the volume of traffic and stop serving past some number 18:24 < fenn> this should be obvious 18:24 < fenn> on comcast for example, you get 1 TB at the start of each month, and when you go past that they start charging extra 18:25 < fenn> and it's a LOT more per TB 18:25 < fenn> i think it's like $10/GB 18:29 < L29Ah> 04:14:10] my ISP has no traffic volume limits, don't see why it would be different 18:29 < L29Ah> because it uses up a VERY limited channel 18:30 < L29Ah> unlike your ISP that just throws a cheap fiber everywhere 18:30 < fenn> {{citation needed}} 18:30 < L29Ah> sadly i don't have data on a skylink satellite throughput 18:30 < L29Ah> but i doubt it's over 10Gb/s 18:31 < fenn> unlike your ISP which has to pay workers to laboriously install fiber everywhere, deal with zoning regulations and graft, starlink merely uses 4 flat panel phased arrays to cover each horizon zone 18:31 < fenn> i mean, without quantitative analysis this is all pointless handwaving 18:31 < L29Ah> over radio, that is; there are probably dedicated optical links for uplinking/peering 18:32 < fenn> supposedly it's 20Gb/s per satellite 18:32 < L29Ah> i also observed such shit when 4G was deployed here 18:32 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgennpqzlwscifyq] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:32 < L29Ah> you could get 50Mb/s unmetered for $5/month 18:32 < L29Ah> today you get 1GB for $5/month 18:32 < L29Ah> because demand 18:33 < fenn> that sort of plan is not available in the US 18:33 < fenn> neither of those actually 18:37 < L29Ah> probably no $10 for 300Mb/s unmetered symmetric over fiber either 18:39 < fenn> it starts at about $40/mo and if you're extremely lucky you can get symmetric fiber for $60/mo 18:39 < fenn> most plans are like 20 - 40Mb down 2 - 5Mb up 18:51 < fenn> "For Services provided on Mars, or in transit to Mars via Starship or other colonization spacecraft, the parties recognize Mars as a free planet and that no Earth-based government has authority or sovereignty over Martian activities. Accordingly, Disputes will be settled through self-governing principles, established in good faith, at the time of Martian settlement." 18:53 < L29Ah> sounds unlikely 19:02 < L29Ah> ok https://www.planettechnews.com/spacex-starlink-satellites-could-cost-250000-each-and-falcon-9-costs-less-than-30-million/ says that a satellite costs $250k, that makes you $13k a month on that beta tariff, good 19:02 < L29Ah> so you break even in 1.5y 19:03 < L29Ah> meanwhile sponsoring your other space activities 19:09 < L29Ah> dunno how quickly would you get those 4M customers tho, but sounds doable 19:10 < L29Ah> if i was living on a yacht, i would buy it w/o thinking twice 19:17 -!- midnight is now known as midnight_ 19:36 < fenn> dunno how you came up with the number of subscribers 19:36 < fenn> musk says that launching on falcon is too expensive 19:36 < fenn> they "need" starship 19:38 < fenn> also the article is conflating hardware cost and launch cost, which is dumb 20:09 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-faxzokxjimsxbsoa] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:22 < nmz787> lsneff: STM in liquid exists 20:33 < nmz787> I *really* want starlink to ask me to join their beta 20:33 < nmz787> my wife and I both signed up to be notified 20:33 < nmz787> rural internet is *abysmal* in the U.S. 20:37 < nmz787> this seems relevant to micro/nano "3D printing" 20:37 < nmz787> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/002185029500027A 20:37 < nmz787> .title 20:37 < saxo> Electrospraying of conducting liquids for monodisperse aerosol generation in the 4 nm to 1.8 μm diameter range - ScienceDirect 20:37 < nmz787> they used sucrose nitric acid 20:38 < nmz787> you could print the most accurate rock candy 20:38 < nmz787> (if the nitric didn't make it inedible) 20:45 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-adqlosfcxbqtfubg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:47 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgennpqzlwscifyq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:53 < fenn> pop rocks, with more pop 21:12 < lsneff> I'll read that, thanks. 21:18 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:26 < lsneff> Annoyingly, reading as much literature on APM and biotech as I have recently means I'm switching my opinions of things seemingly several times a day 21:34 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-adqlosfcxbqtfubg] has quit [] 21:49 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Oct 28 00:00:59 2020