--- Log opened Thu Oct 29 00:00:00 2020
00:09 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
01:02 < nmz787> "you can't beat natural selection" yeah but some of us want the option to try...
01:03 < nmz787> https://sci-hub.se/https://avs.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1116/1.5020128
01:03 < nmz787> Smallest microhouse in the world, assembled on the facet of an optical fiber by origamiand welded in the μRobotex nanofactory
01:26 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235185231.dynamic-4-waw-k-2-1-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:04 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:50 -!- faceface [~faceface@unaffiliated/faceface] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:02 -!- sanehatter [~sanehatte@45.83.220.175] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:28 -!- faceface [~faceface@unaffiliated/faceface] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:29 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dtrfvnwllwuvasvd] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:10 < fltrz> nmz787, which is exactly my argument: feel free to try and beat natural selection ... at your own risk
05:14 < fltrz> its just that statistically speaking there is no free lunch
06:13 < fltrz> fenn, trying to beat outwork natural selection is counterproductive and slow, there are plenty of other fruitful endeavors for genetics
06:15 < fltrz> if you insist on eventually improving human genome the most productive contribution would be sequencing as many wild individuals (human and nonhuman) before the wild ones disappear). The loss of genetic skills by extinction of species / wild populations is occurring at a much faster rate than the painful slow gain of genetic skills in artificial conditions
06:17 < fltrz> i.e. we should not be satisfied with sequencing a minimal number of individuals from a species to theoretically reproduce the just diverse enough genetic pool for survival, we want the exact distribution of binding affinities in their genome, the reaction kinetics knowhow of the species
06:18 < fltrz> we can figure out later the exact relative utility explaining their distributions
06:20 < fltrz> we will sourly miss the lost genetic skills in those species
06:20 < fltrz> (from the egoistic humanist perspective)
06:36 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:47 < kanzure> fenn: antonio regalado and reuters broke the story, and jiankui he knew they were sniffing around, so he decided to do those youtube videos (probably a recommendation of that publicist he hired)
06:53 < kanzure> fltrz did not successfully argue for government and regulation ("it is only ethical when it is allowed!" allowed by who? why assume agreement to that system of rules precisely?)
06:54 < kanzure> "nothing fundamentally prevents a genome change to change a developed human into a velociraptor" that doesn't mean we should focus on that project. germline genetic engineering has substantially lower hanging fruit.
06:55 < fltrz> kanzure, I argued my personal opinions on why we shouldn't allow it, and besides that I think I have already described provably informed democracy in some detail in the past, regarding again *my* opinion on the what or who decides
06:55 < kanzure> also, fltrz misunderstood fenn's comment about time travel (fltrz seems to have misunderstood the philosophical problems of selfhood)
06:55 < kanzure> fltrz: who is "we" when you say "we shouldn't allow it". and why are you allowing/disallowing things in the first place? where did this come from?
06:56 < kanzure> democracy is the majoritarian thing where you yell the loudest to get your way, right?
06:56 < fltrz> kanzure, because we are always allowing or disallowing things, you can do it implicitly or explicitly.
06:56 < kanzure> can you argue why your model of the world is not totalitarian
06:56 < fltrz> kanzure, thats NOT what democracy is, and you seem to ignore what I wrote on provably informed democracy...
06:59 < fltrz> " that doesn't mean we should focus on that project. germline genetic engineering has substantially lower hanging fruit." I don't argue focusing on the velociraptor project, the point was that there is a slow hard ethical way, and a "fast" unproven unethical way. where "fast" is contingent on the belief that it is even possible to beat natural selection
07:00 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cknjrvsolbluxdxz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:00 < kanzure> ethics is "a set of moral principles, especially ones relating to or affirming a specified group, field, or form of conduct."
07:01 < kanzure> morals is "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior based on moral principles or axioms"
07:01 < fltrz> kanzure, not sure why you throw some cultural relativism into the definition, or selected a cultural relativist definition
07:01 < kanzure> because most dictionaries confuse ethics and morals
07:01 < kanzure> go check... it's stupid.
07:02 < fltrz> the second definition is quite a bit better
07:03 < kanzure> ethics are usually decided by societies or specific groups, e.g. the american medical association's ethics, the ethics you agree to when you become a state-approved attorney, etc.
07:03 < kanzure> but this is voluntary- you choose to join that association
07:04 < fltrz> kanzure, ethics ought to be globally decided where globally means the connected group of entities that are able to affect each other in real life
07:04 < kanzure> global universal consensus
07:05 < fltrz> so self-regulation ethics is typically "standardization to avoid standardization"
07:05 < fltrz> i.e. medical societies etc, prefer self regulation for obvious reasons
07:06 < kanzure> we share fundamentally different beliefs about life, and while i would like to debug this, i'm going to make it someone else's problem instead
07:06 < fltrz> essentially the same as USB, HDMI etc standards
07:09 < fltrz> it's exactly the evaporative cooling of giving up and deferring to someone else to get a person convinced that provably informed democracy would be better for you to convince me: you'd only need to concisely argue your point once, and thereby force all the others who wish to contradict to study and reproduce your argument if they want their vote to count
07:10 < fltrz> where the others can be separated in place, time (even generations)...
07:19 < kanzure> did you ever see why extrapolated volition doesn't work?
07:20 < kanzure> coherent extrapolated volition, rather
07:38 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235185231.dynamic-4-waw-k-2-1-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:51 < nsh> love the smell of philosophy bunk in the morning
07:51 < nsh> worse, lesswrong pseudophilosophy bunk
07:52 < kanzure> https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/solutions/confidential-compute/
07:55 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:56 < fenn> provably informed democracy sounds like a lot of work. only extremists would participate
08:00 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:03 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:04 < fenn> it's still tyrrany by majority at best. why not let people choose to live with like-minded people instead?
08:04 < fenn> then at least the tyrrany would be obvious
08:04 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/Tobias-Buckell_Resistence.txt
08:05 < superkuh> Short scifi on this topic.
09:12 < kanzure> http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/democracy.html
09:16 < jrayhawk_> h/win 7
09:16 < jrayhawk_> whoops
09:18 < kanzure> caught you
09:19 < fltrz> kanzure, "“Democratic” in its original meaning [refers to] unlimited majority rule . . . a social system in which one’s work, one’s property, one’s mind, and one’s life are at the mercy of any gang that may muster the vote of a majority at any moment for any purpose." disagreed: "demos cratos" people's rule; just like republic "res publica" matters / cases for the public to decide; its all power to the people without specifyin
09:19 < fltrz> g the exact decision mechanism
09:20 < fltrz> just greek vs latin
09:25 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pvusdovdkhieesdi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:33 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pvusdovdkhieesdi] has quit []
09:48 < nsh> (undisputed grand poobah of political theory, ayn rand)
09:49 < nsh> one of the most delicious ironies of this century so far is that the likely greatest public good created since the internet age was the product of an objectivist porn magnate
09:49 < nsh> and a third-tier academic philosopher
09:50 < nsh> (kiddin' on, there are no tiers in academic philosophy. it's all uniformly shite)
09:55 -!- rodarmor [sid210835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lcpgopueijpwuiaf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:55 -!- rodarmor [sid210835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rvoedhfzktmfaqeo] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:44 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235185231.dynamic-4-waw-k-2-1-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:06 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has quit [Quit: Bye]
11:08 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:35 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:42 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dtrfvnwllwuvasvd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
11:55 < kanzure> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/10/in-a-first-researchers-extract-secret-key-used-to-encrypt-intel-cpu-code/
12:04 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:14 < nmz787> fltrz: Extinction is just natural selection...
12:15 < nsh> (or non-selection indeed)
12:15 < nsh> although the latter is implicit in the former, assuming species are exactly either selected or not
12:16 < nsh> which is to assume species exist exactly, which is mildly dubious but the concept is more useful than its absence
12:16 < nmz787> basically they lost the game, thus we already know their genetics sucked
12:16 < nmz787> losers
12:18 < nmz787> as it is, it seems there's plenty of legal and accepted ways to harm unborn and current children, like psychologically, or feeding shitty diets
12:18 < nmz787> thus genetic engineering my balls should be perfectly acceptable
12:19 < nmz787> I can put my 2 year old on a motorcycle, legally, some would even applaud me... yet he could be maimed for life with one wrong move
12:19 < nmz787> (I boughy my 2 year old a motorcycle for his birthday... along with training wheels)
12:22 < nmz787> and several neighbors have jovially mentioned it
12:22 < nmz787> (my wife is more conflicted)
12:30 < nsh> t'aint what you do it's the way what you it
12:36 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:49 < Llamamoe> nmz787: Just in the case you're serious, please don't. Trying to GMO gametes is way harder than it seems, chromosomes get fucked, methylation patterns get fucked, a lot of weird shit happens
13:10 < fltrz> nmz787, so you too (like fenn) subscribe to the idea that the presence of injustice A justifies injustice B (and thus vice versa) ? how is the logical conclusion not simply: injustice A is observed, let's prevent injustice A?
13:13 < fltrz> you guys boggle my mind sometimes...
13:14 < fltrz> superkuh, thanks for that short story, I needed that
13:17 < fltrz> nmz787, possibly legal and accepted by some countries, or merely proclaimed to be so, does not mean it would be legal and accepted in a provably informed democracy
13:21 < Llamamoe> fltrz: I don't think people really believe that, from my POV, it's usually a justification, usually for crappy personality traits
13:22 < fltrz> Llamamoe, thanks for trying to clarify, but I'm not sure I'm able to correctly interpret your last comment, would you mind paraphrasing a bit?
13:22 < Llamamoe> fltrz: I don't think people really believe "injustice A justifies injustice B", they just want an excuse
13:22 < Llamamoe> Or eh idk nvm
13:22 < fltrz> oh i see
13:22 < Llamamoe> I'm jaded and not up to thought today
14:26 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raonyguim@109.255.83.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:27 -!- Alchemical [~al@unaffiliated/alchemical] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:31 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235185231.dynamic-4-waw-k-2-1-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:34 -!- raonyguimaraes [~raonyguim@109.255.83.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:03 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-56-55.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:06 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abtqyvgqqlkwecqh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:14 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:35 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:47 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: bye bye]
15:49 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:f492:3a7d:f1d1:4af7] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:06 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:12 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jmdegknihgnkvgto] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:35 < nmz787> fltrz more like, i find it ridiculous that people get upsett about human GMO but not bgenerally acceptable stuff that likely causes way more integrated problems in the world
16:36 < nmz787> integreated/cumulative
16:42 -!- Malvolio is now known as ProteinSquirrel
16:42 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@2a01:e0a:5b9:7840:6600:6aff:fe5f:9d6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:43 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@2a01:e0a:5b9:7840:6600:6aff:fe5f:9d6] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:45 < docl> genetic engineering will remove a lot more injustice than it causes. kids being born with birth defects is just as bad when it's a random act of nature. we're just more sensitive to human caused injustice because we're wary that bad people will cause more of it on purpose if not held accountable.
16:46 < docl> but it's lazy (and unjust) to take a hard line against intervening in nature just because we might accidentally mess it up.
16:47 < lsneff> .t https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/10/28/more-bad-news-for-the-arctic-the-laptev-sea-hasnt-frozen
16:47 < saxo> Daily chart - More bad news for the Arctic: the Laptev Sea hasn’t frozen | Graphic detail | The Economist
16:47 < lsneff> Blue ocean every soon?
16:47 < lsneff> *event
16:48 -!- ProteinSquirrel is now known as Malvolio
16:52 < docl> personally I'd rather focus on interventions in adults than embryos because I'd feel immense (even if irrational) guilt for screwing up a kid's development, especially if I couldn't reverse the effect. also, interventions in adults are more likely to allow lifespan extension, which is a bigger problem right now than birth defects. but figuring out a safe way to upgrade the germline is definitely intrig
16:52 < docl> uing, and it's going to happen sooner or later.
16:54 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrwxbQj5mj0&t=193s
16:54 < saxo> YouTube
16:55 < docl> what I could really use near term is a uterine replicator so I can have a bigger family without my wife having to undergo extreme morning sickness. technically there's an option, surrogate mothers, but it's a bit expensive (and still offloads the risk/cost to another woman).
16:56 < kanzure> https://mockmechanics.com/
16:57 < kanzure> docl: to be fair you can choose another woman who has less morning sickness and less risk, so there's that
16:57 < kanzure> (like why would you voluntarily choose someone who is more likely to die during pregnancy)
16:57 < kanzure> ((for surrogacy)
16:57 < kanzure> )
16:58 < docl> eh, it's complicated. emotions and stuff.
16:58 < kanzure> for surrogacy?
16:59 < kanzure> "also, interventions in adults are more likely to allow lifespan extension" that's not true.... interventions in germline are cheaper, easier, and more likely to result in profound lifespan extension.
16:59 < kanzure> adult gene therapy has low yield and is unlikely to reprogram all the important cells
16:59 < docl> ah, for surrogacy I'll look for someone with low risk. assuming I can scrape together enough to pay for it.
17:00 < kanzure> mcsurrogacy
17:05 < nmz787> surrogacy also can have weird environmental factor differences I might disagree with
17:05 < kanzure> more on mockmachines https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24934722
17:06 < nmz787> like maybe I dont want any heavy metal to be played around the mother... e
17:07 < kanzure> you disagree with weird heavy metal differences?
17:07 < kanzure> do you think they not exist?
17:27 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:f492:3a7d:f1d1:4af7] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:56 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abtqyvgqqlkwecqh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:03 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:12 < fltrz> are muscle heme proteins identical to blood heme proteins?
18:14 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:15 -!- TMA [tma@twin.jikos.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:17 < fltrz> oh duh, myoglobin vs hemoglobin
18:41 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jmdegknihgnkvgto] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:49 -!- Solgriffin [sid282649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-urqhgprrkwhvedoc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:50 -!- acertain [uid470584@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuijhjibtvepkxua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:51 -!- wallet42__ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ddsrglszoalcxslt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:51 -!- acertain [sid470584@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fisxzvdyqjtaymih] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:51 -!- Solgriffin [sid282649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txqgbemlwnzhzubt] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:53 -!- wallet42__ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mqxlouvlewbgfsxl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:34 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b98:f2f2:1da0:3cc8:433a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:50 < kanzure> http://it7otdanqu7ktntxzm427cba6i53w6wlanlh23v5i3siqmos47pzhvyd.onion/sj.krueger/youtube-dl
21:18 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cknjrvsolbluxdxz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:20 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwsuaivzlzwrwipz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:26 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdesujwiuhgqdgyz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:27 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwsuaivzlzwrwipz] has quit []
23:46 -!- shawwwn [uid6132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdesujwiuhgqdgyz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
23:52 -!- andrewknoweveryt [676e93a2@103.110.147.162] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> sup
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:52 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:53 < andrewknoweveryt> t
23:53 < andrewknoweveryt> r
23:53 < andrewknoweveryt> r
23:53 < andrewknoweveryt> r
23:54 -!- andrewknoweveryt [676e93a2@103.110.147.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:55 < L29Ah> bye
--- Log closed Fri Oct 30 00:00:01 2020