--- Log opened Sat Nov 28 00:00:29 2020
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00:46 < jrayhawk> https://store.steampowered.com/app/337000/ DXMD is on sale for $4.50
00:47 < Llamamoe> Is it good? I found DXHR profoundly underwhelming relative to both my lowest expectations, and to the original DX
00:55 < jrayhawk> i am halfway through it and it is vastly more coherent and less insulting than DXHR was
00:55 < jrayhawk> there is a severe deficiency of Tong one-liners, though
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06:22 < docl> andytoshi: I don't think it would work that way. if you have a 10,000 sqkm orbital mirror array, it's only going to be possible to focus it to 100km on the ground at the smallest. I mean, in principle you can do temperatures up to the surface of the sun with solar mirrors, but you need to be catching all angles for that. We're only capturing a tiny % of the sunlight at 10,000km
06:22 < docl> this is a lot safer than a laser transmission system of equivalent scale
06:26 < docl> kanzure: turns out modifying the climate is a lot easier if you are directing sunlight than if you are blocking it. per square meter, it has a greater effect. most of the sunlight will just go around your shade because the sun has a large diameter.
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06:35 < docl> lsneff: light pollution also looks like a favorable thing for mirrors because the light is directional, so it doesn't scatter to unintended places like the light bouncing off of opaque satellites..
06:36 < docl> you'd get a lot of light bouncing off the ground collector into the sky, so it wouldn't be good for nearby astronomy of course.
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08:33 < kanzure> docl: well the shades need to have large diameters as well (10,000+ km)
08:34 < docl> yeah, and it does work, it's just bigger per watt of change
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09:13 < lsneff> Where would I find resources on bayesian reasoning?
09:14 < fenn> dns cache expiry time defaults to ~a day
09:15 < fenn> try it now (ctrl-shift-R)
09:21 < lsneff> Yeah, works now. Haven't run into the issue of stale dns caches before.
09:31 < kanzure> https://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-09-05/the-next-ten-billion-years/
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09:42 < superkuh> This "next-ten-billion-years" reminds me of Adrian Tchaikovsky's recent scifi book, "The Doors of Eden" which does the same kind of what if explorations but in the past instead of the future.
09:53 < lsneff> What a cold prediction.
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10:06 < L29Ah> games are bad they make you mad
10:10 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: https://youtu.be/CbZ_O5Y9pgg
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11:24 < lsneff> .t https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12559-009-9009-8
11:24 < saxo> Hyperdimensional Computing: An Introduction to Computing in Distributed Representation with High-Dimensional Random Vectors | SpringerLink
11:25 < lsneff> I just read through this and it's fascinating. Discusses how hypervectors (e.g. large bitvectors with ~10,000 elements) have properties that make brain-like computing easier.
11:26 < Llamamoe> lsneff: Is there a single irc message length tldr possible somewhere in all that high dimensional space?
11:28 < Llamamoe> Also what is brain-like computing? Synchronization of asynchronous circuitry?
11:28 < lsneff> Brain-like computing is perhaps a bit too much too draw from it. Let me try to summarize
11:30 < Urchin[emacs]> lsneff: is that something like Connection Machine?
11:35 < lsneff> The key is that a random hypervector will be very dissimilar from any other random hypervector (because the space is so large). From that property, with the use of an autoassociative memory, you can do arithmetic operations on these vectors to represent sets, sequences (that have error weighting, so a more recent item would have less error than a previous one), and rich associations between hypervectors.
11:36 < lsneff> Basically, it lets you store data and operate it in a way that seems to be similar to how the brain does it (maybe).
11:36 < Llamamoe> Sounds like a more refined version of a concept I've been toying with for a long time
11:36 < Llamamoe> My idea was in the context of traditional(-ish, very heavily -ish) neural networks, though
11:37 < Llamamoe> Where instead of a single neural network, the architecture would be disjointed into a large number of submodels that connect to each other based on high-dimensional vectors representing "tags" or "concepts"
11:37 < Llamamoe> And some sort of dispatch system
11:38 < Llamamoe> E.g. visual, audio, text, numerical data would have different "tags" which would be used to connect e.g. visual output of a subnetwork to visual input of another
11:38 < Llamamoe> it was a very very rough idea
11:38 < Llamamoe> Since with my issues I'm not really capable of high level abstract thought
11:39 < Llamamoe> Or another idea called "concept arithmetic", that I'm not really sure how to word out
11:39 < Llamamoe> IDK
11:39 < Llamamoe> My memory is shot so I barely even remember this
11:40 < Llamamoe> But I remember thinking about high-d vectors representing "concepts" and using them to create associative relations
11:40 < lsneff> Yeah, that seems like a direction this could go in.
11:41 < lsneff> word2vec is similar in some ways.
11:41 < Llamamoe> I look forward to the day when I can truly *think*. I am days away from the beginning of proper treatment of the issue underlying most if not all my problems
11:42 < Llamamoe> I have a mountain of ML-related thoughts and ideas
11:42 < Llamamoe> Some of them other people have come up with since from what I've seen of the field's progress, some are probably garbage, some I think could be potentially promising
11:50 < Llamamoe> Still, as critical as I believe it to be to the loosely defined "way forward", ML is not among my first targets to delve into, especially given as it's ridiculously math-heavy, and so far I have not been capable of learning math in my life. This is likely to change, but I'm still dreading the thought
11:51 < lsneff> What are your initial targets?
11:53 < Llamamoe> First: Getting back into doing things at all. Probably a lot of small-scale coding. Second: Writing an information organization utility for myself because I have no good way of keeping track of the mountains of links, thoughts, papers, notes and find existing solutions lacking (plus it sounds like a fun project)
11:53 < Llamamoe> Second: Maybe gamedev? (re)gaining creative confidence, and making something worthwhile
11:54 < Llamamoe> Third: Gotta learn electronics, seems too critical to so many things to let it slip by, and I want to design a cheap+safe PAP(BPAP+) or better yet an ASV
11:54 < Llamamoe> What then? I don't know.
11:54 < Llamamoe> I have lived for years resigned to the notion of never feeling a sense of self, or having the ability to do things, again
11:54 < Llamamoe> The possibilities are infinite.
11:55 < Llamamoe> If I can truly gain energy and executive functions to do things, my remaining lifespan won't be enough to go through all that I would wish to do
11:56 < Llamamoe> I think at this moment, my biggest passion would be frugal citizen science. I want all that is science trivially accessible to all.
11:56 < Llamamoe> Bio is definitely a huge part of that, because I see it as a crucial "could hypothetically be accessible to everyone" thing that could be leveraged to do great things
11:57 < fenn> you could work on not dying
11:57 < fenn> dying's pretty bad
11:57 < Llamamoe> Sounds like such a dreadful thing to spend time on, and it has so much attention already
11:57 < fenn> it really doesn't
11:57 < Llamamoe> I want to improve things for humans
11:57 < fenn> there are about a dozen serious aging researchers
11:58 < fenn> and 8 billion dying people
11:58 < Llamamoe> So? Death means nothing.
11:58 < fenn> then nothing means nothing
11:58 < fenn> stupid
11:58 < Llamamoe> Experience of those alive is what matters.
11:59 < Llamamoe> Death intrinsically erases meaning
11:59 < fenn> which is why you should try not to die
11:59 < Llamamoe> I'll leave it to others, I want to improve the experiences of those who exist
11:59 < fenn> it would improve the experience of those who exist
12:00 < Llamamoe> It would do nothing for the growing wealth inequality and relative loss of agency over their own lives that humans have
12:00 < lsneff> Yeah, not dying would improve my experiences
12:00 < fenn> more time to be together, more things accomplished per person, less waste on education
12:00 < Llamamoe> We have all become "consumers" with no agency over things present in our lives. We buy. We work to buy. We don't make, we don't repair, we don't modify, don't understand.
12:01 < Llamamoe> fenn: First I'd rather see children treated with the respect and level of education and care they deserve
12:01 < lsneff> I think that's irrelevant to the dying thing.
12:01 < fenn> i don't think children have some special moral place in the cosmos
12:01 < Llamamoe> It is irrelevant, other than being a better way to improve human experience
12:01 < fenn> they're just young humans
12:02 < Llamamoe> fenn: We all start as children, it's a critical period that shapes all of our lives in a major way. And we shit on it because children have no ability to negotiate or self-advocate or understand what would benefit them
12:02 < fenn> there are important developmental windows in which it's easier to learn things, such as language, that happen early in life
12:02 < fenn> i agree that children are mistreated and discriminated against in unfair ways
12:02 < Llamamoe> We force them through hours of strict obedience training misaligned with their day-night rhythms that exercises mainly declarative memory and obedience to authority
12:03 < fenn> you can't use mistreatment of children as an exuse that everybody should be slowly murdered by the tragon tyrant
12:03 < Llamamoe> Instead of truly cultivating ability to think, learn, evaluate
12:03 < fenn> dragon tyrant*
12:03 < Llamamoe> I think that extending lifespan would be a moral good
12:03 < fenn> i think old people get grumpy because they see the same shit happening over and over again and people fall for it every time
12:04 < fenn> if everybody were like that maybe it wouldn't happen again
12:04 < lsneff> Also chronic pain and things like that make people grumpy
12:04 < fenn> yeah
12:04 < Llamamoe> But I do not see it as taking priority over things that influence the trajectory of the world - environment, the world's systems, and the environments that shape people and the ways their interact with the world
12:04 < Llamamoe> People living longer benefits individual people, not the human world itself
12:05 < fenn> it's not even wrong
12:05 < fenn> anyway i can see you are being stubborn so i'll stop
12:05 < Llamamoe> Haha
12:06 < Llamamoe> fenn: My way of thinking is pretty alien to how people tend to think. I think I see your point, but I have no way of knowing I truly do - perhaps if I did, I would be convinced. Or perhaps the roles would be reversed
12:06 < fenn> there's a lot of low hanging fruit in DIY/open source hardware lab equipment
12:06 < lsneff> That's for certain
12:06 < Llamamoe> Also, psychopathy-tier thought:
12:06 < Llamamoe> Right now there are far too many people alive whose staying alive would be undesirable against the prospect of what later generations might be like
12:07 < fenn> this is factually incorrect
12:07 < Llamamoe> Imagine we had immortality next Friday
12:07 < Llamamoe> And you're stuck with half the US population Trump voter tier of humans
12:07 < Llamamoe> People whose ability to process information is probably fundamentally flawed
12:07 < fenn> we are far below any plausible "carrying capacity" of the biosphere, and even if we were close to it, there's expansion of the biosphere, both on earth and in space
12:08 < lsneff> Yeah, that's wrong. There are many people alive who don't act as if they may survive beyond their expected lifespan, and so act differently from some of us.
12:08 < Llamamoe> I do not see that as a rational argument.
12:08 < Llamamoe> Prioritizing short-term goals is standard animal instinct
12:08 < Llamamoe> It's not a consequence of high-level analysis involving one's lifespan
12:08 < Urchin[emacs]> eh, depends on the animal
12:08 < fenn> i'm all for genetically engineered superintelligent catgirls
12:08 < Llamamoe> In fact I would posit that the amount of lifespan people have left plays virtually no role in their short-vs-long term planning
12:08 < fenn> but not if it requires murdering everybody i know
12:09 < Urchin[emacs]> squirels stocking up for the winter is a bit of long term instinct that comes to mind
12:09 < fenn> (fortunately, it doesn't require murdering)
12:09 < srk> Llamamoe: do you know about zotero?
12:09 < Llamamoe> fenn: Tissue 3D printing with epidermal cells engineered to express cat fur. You could probably even connect it to nerves, or grow new ones
12:09 < Llamamoe> srk: It has been pitched my way but I have not looked into it sufficiently
12:09 < Llamamoe> Also I like having my own tools
12:10 < Llamamoe> Something I can understand the inner workings of at a deep level
12:10 < srk> yeah, I know that feeling :) I've stumbled on it recently so wondering if anyone has experience with it
12:10 < Urchin[emacs]> I have cat hair allergy, so I don't want catgirls
12:10 < srk> using freemind from time to time now but plaintext is still the best thing I've got
12:10 < fenn> they will be hypoallergenic by design
12:10 < srk> I want cat fur
12:10  * fenn mails srk some cat fur
12:11 < fenn> bam!
12:11 < srk> instead of this boring skin.. :D
12:11 < lsneff> I already some friends who are nearly furries, so cat girls is just a walk in the park.
12:11  * fenn mails srk a potato peeler
12:11 < Llamamoe> Urchin[emacs]: Cat hair is hypoallergenic, it's saliva proteins that cats deposit on it
12:11 < srk> I'm not gonna peel my cats
12:12 < lsneff> I want hair that can express programmable rgb patterns.
12:12 < srk> interesting
12:12 < lsneff> is that too much to ask
12:12 < fenn> as long as it's not turing complete, you're in the clear
12:12 < Llamamoe> lsneff: Depends on what you mean by "programmable". I think that something like "eat this substance and new hair growing out of you will have a different color after a few hours of gene expression magic" should be possible.
12:13 < Llamamoe> But having it dynamically change color... I dunno
12:13 < Llamamoe> I mean some animals do a limited form of that, but would the proteins doing that fit into hairs? I'd be surprised if they did
12:13 < Llamamoe> Even if they did, hair is dead, isn't it?
12:14 < Llamamoe> Maybe packaging a chemically-reactive color-changing substance and a hair-compatible protein that packages it in... but then you have a potential health hazard, and also sounds really complex
12:15 < Llamamoe> But yeah I think that transplanting genetically modified organs should be possible.
12:15 < Llamamoe> You probably already could do that on the level of simpler less structured tissue
12:15 < Llamamoe> In fact pretty sure it's been done to cure animal models of T1 diabetes
12:16 < Llamamoe> But there's only so much simple tissue can do, and attempts to express foreign proteins could just end in immune response
12:18 < Llamamoe> lsneff: fenn: Out of curiosity, is longevity an important aspect of this channel?
12:18 < fenn> yes
12:18 < Llamamoe> Hm.
12:18 < Llamamoe> I can see why, but I remain in disagreement
12:18 < fenn> just multiply the number of years you expect to live by the rate of doing cool stuff per year, to get the total number of cool stuff, and it should be obvious why living longer is better
12:19 < fenn> it just totally swamps any other instrumental goal
12:19 < Urchin[emacs]> ^
12:19 < Urchin[emacs]> I kind of regret not taking longevity more seriously
12:19 < Llamamoe> It does not matter. I do not matter. You do not matter. Our wellbeing is important, but all benefit from collective good, while the collective good does not benefit from individual good, and ultimately longevity is individual good
12:20 < lsneff> That's provably wrong. Longevity is beneficial for the common good.
12:20 < Urchin[emacs]> we're not ants
12:20 < Llamamoe> I'm not sure how to explain my perspective here.
12:21 < Llamamoe> Longevity does NOTHING to guarantee that people will have more agency, that the world's systems will edge closer to "utopia" than "dystopia", that we will continue to have privacy, freedom, control over what exists in our lives.
12:21 < Llamamoe> I want a cooperative world
12:21 < fenn> while i'm actually interested in longevity for selfish reasons, it's actually a huge benefit to society to have the OPTION to continue living, and the knowledge and dare i say wisdom that comes from having people with vastly more experience around
12:21 < Llamamoe> That is what I consider the optimal terminal goal for humanity
12:22 < Llamamoe> All else comes after.
12:22 < fenn> how can you have a utopia without freedom?
12:22 < fenn> with freedom comes the choice to not cooperate
12:23 < Llamamoe> Freedom is an abstract concept that neatly summarizes many of our needs, but is ultimately an abstraction
12:23 < fenn> "equality, liberty, fraternity" is an impossible set of constraints
12:23 < Urchin[emacs]> Llamamoe: longevity doesn't take suicide out of equation as an out
12:24 < Llamamoe> Anyway
12:24 < Llamamoe> I will return here to this topic in this channel once I regain the ability to think more properly, and actually process all my thoughts
12:26 < Llamamoe> I do not believe in "right" or "wrong", I believe only in what is or is not acceptable towards a given goal, and to me that goal is wellbeing of humanity. To bring it about, I am willing to be machiavellian, and I also feel reasonably sure my take on it is valid. Ultimately, it is only our subjective decision what is "right" and "wrong", and we all must bear the weight of this choice.
12:27 < Llamamoe> You say "timespan", I say "trajectory"
12:27 < Llamamoe> Everything in this world, every complex system, is testament to value of efficiency of investment into future trajectory over all else
12:28 < Llamamoe> Even the tiniest metabolic advantage causes an organism to outcompete its peers. Even the tiniest advantage in profit margins matters twenty years down the line. Years of education predict success. Parental love predicts wellbeing.
12:29 < Llamamoe> And in the end, we are not the rational creatures we want to believe ourselves. Language is communication, ways to justify, explain, resolve cognitive dissonance, to others, and to ourselves. But it is not what drives us at our core.
12:29 < fenn> stop turning everything into a zero sum game
12:30 < lsneff> I don't think you're entirely wrong there. While I could make the argument that at the very same time, human history and future is made up of the stories of people (and perhaps posthumans, etc), I think it's more useful to say that it seems clear to me that longevity  is beneficial to the human race and trajectory as a whole (as well as individually) and it surprised me that you don't feel the same.
12:30 < Llamamoe> fenn: I just tend to use exaggerated language, it's a huge flaw of mine.
12:30 < fenn> you're regurgitating standard liberal propaganda for why we can't have nice things
12:30 < fenn> what if... communism promised immortality
12:30 < Llamamoe> I don't even know what the typical liberal stances are to be honest
12:31 < fenn> what if... equality of opportunity DEMANDS genetic engineering
12:31 < Llamamoe> Majority of my conclusions are based on my own evaluation. I have people I value that I discuss things with, but I can't even recall the last time I watched or read any political news or discussions
12:33 < Llamamoe> lsneff: Okay, hypothetically, what does longevity change for the better in this world?
12:33 < Llamamoe> Not for individuals, but for the world's architecture itself
12:33 < Urchin[emacs]> the world architecture can go fuck itself
12:33 < Urchin[emacs]> if it's demanding our deaths, something is fucking wrong with it
12:33 < Llamamoe> It can not. It defines everything about our lives.
12:34 < Llamamoe> And to be clear, I am *not* against longevity
12:34 < fenn> transhumanism is about changing the rules of the game, to transcend "the human condition" which is the set of constraints defined by the world and our substrate
12:34 < Llamamoe> But realistically, what would be better 100 years from now if people lived longer?
12:34 < Llamamoe> Not for any given human individually, but about the world itself?
12:35 < Urchin[emacs]> IDK, I consider Earth as a prison, and hate the fucking planets
12:35  * Urchin[emacs] shrugs
12:35 < fenn> i think they're using "the world" in a more general sense
12:35 < Urchin[emacs]> ah
12:35 < Urchin[emacs]> well
12:36 < Urchin[emacs]> IMO, it would force people to confront with long-term effects of their actions (or other people affected by them would force the people doing actions to confront them)
12:37 < lsneff> Wisdom, long-term thinking, escape from tribalism and mythology. You get these when a population lives long enough to actually think about how its actions will influence them in the future.
12:37 < Urchin[emacs]> I don't think being tyranized would be popular - "what do you mean being your slave *forever*?"
12:38 < Llamamoe> I think you think too highly of people, lsneff. You can explain any behavior in words, but in the end it's been decided by subconscious processes involving mostly instincts, social and otherwise, not logical analysis
12:39 < fenn> i'd say just having the people around still, is an implicit good. also, there are a lot of instrumental goods such as the embedded experience and skills that would have been lost through death, the relationships and cooperative agreements that enable communication and productivity, that normally have to be generated from scratch every 25 years
12:40 < fenn> it's hard to argue that X or Y is good when you say "you and I are meaningless"
12:40 < Llamamoe> Longevity wouldn't affect the trajectory of environmental change. It wouldn't affect growth of global inequality. Of the negotiation inequality resulting from it. Of access to resources. Of systems that incentivize cooperation. Of societal factors that influence how we think about others. Of engagement in science and progress.
12:41 < fenn> long term thinking would certainly affect environmental change
12:41 < Urchin[emacs]> Llamamoe: so what?
12:41 < fenn> we're already in an inequal society, and we're also dying
12:41 < Llamamoe> Urchin[emacs]: So the world would still be fucked.
12:42 < Urchin[emacs]> Llamamoe: I detest all people, so people suffering doesn't concern me
12:42 < Llamamoe> In fact it well could result in more consolidation of power
12:42 < Llamamoe> And fenn, we do matter, but not in the way that matters. Collective wellbeing is both a sum and a superset of individual wellbeing, while individual wellbeing is both a consequence and a part of collective wellbeing. I'm not sure *how* to phrase what I mean here.
12:43 < Llamamoe> I talk with people very little
12:43 < Urchin[emacs]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot4qdCs54ZE
12:43 < Llamamoe> A lot of my thoughts diverged from things easily describable because I never really shared them, and I don't need words for things I understand intuitively
12:43 < fenn> and when you aren't challenged, obvious flaws in assumptions can slip through
12:44 < Urchin[emacs]> human experience is fundamentally a miserable one
12:44 < fenn> a lot of science has been about showing that "common sense" is false
12:44 < Urchin[emacs]> longevity helps buy time to sort it out somewhat at least
12:45 < Llamamoe> As anyone who knows me would tell you, I do not have common sense
12:45 < fenn> i'm just saying "intuitive" doesn't mean "correct"
12:45 < fenn> .title
12:45 < saxo> How The Dutch Economy Shows We Can't Reduce Wealth Inequality With Taxes - YouTube
12:45 < Llamamoe> No, but it's a... framework of thoughts. You need certain frameworks to evaluate certain concepts, and the framework I'm talking about here, I'm not sure how to word. Give me a while, I'll try to.
12:47 < fenn> i'm surprised you haven't brought up "but there will be too many people!"
12:48 < fenn> or "death is just a part of life"
12:48  * fenn pulls out the deathist bingo card
12:48 < Llamamoe> Why would I bring those up?
12:48 < Urchin[emacs]> fenn: even the limited longevity increases we had so far crimp down on the population growth rate
12:48 < Llamamoe> "death is a part of life", while true, is irrelevant to the topic
12:48 < fenn> population growth is negative in most industrialized countries
12:49 < Llamamoe> "but there will be too many people!" is not an absolute, and obvious besides
12:49 < fenn> immigration masks it somewhat
12:49 < Llamamoe> fenn: You will not find me as a subscriber of anything possible to dub as "common sense", sorry to disappoint
12:50 < Llamamoe> I am deeply biased, flawed, at times irrational, and obviously influenced by others as it is unavoidable, but I'm still up high on the freethought charts
12:50 < fenn> well anyway, fixing the huge elephant in the room was just a suggestion for how you might spend your newfound time. there are plenty of other things to work on
12:51 < Urchin[emacs]> Llamamoe: sure, it doesn't resolve your pet problems of humans being scum directly, neither does it resolve mine, but, IMO, it's a step in the right direction
12:51 < Llamamoe> Anyway let me think about the "individuals don't matter but they do" and "trajectory" topic. I do not want to have an explanation based solely in economics(as defined more broadly than just money), which would be the simplest example.
12:56 < fenn> if you like listening to people talk, here's the true story of kevin kelly http://www.thisamericanlife.org/50/shoulda-been-dead
12:57 < fenn> a bit too religious for my tastes, but the basic experience can translate to anybody
12:58 < fenn> ~half an hour
12:59 < Urchin[emacs]> fenn: why is he important?
13:00 < fenn> it's about knowing that you're going to die soon and suddenly having that impending doom lifted
13:00 < fenn> and what you can accomplish with your newfound future
13:02 < fenn> kevin kelly is hugely influential on the kinds of things we talk about in here
13:02 < Llamamoe> Gods this is hard to word.
13:03 < Llamamoe> I'm trying to think, but wording it does not come easily. Aspects of it, yes, but not the core concept
13:04 < fenn> there was a whole generation of people swirling in the general orbit of the whole earth catalog, that gave rise to the culture of freedom that we now take for granted on the internet
13:05 < lsneff> fenn: I'll give that a listen
13:06 < fenn> "At a time when the New Left was calling for grassroots political (i.e., referred) power, Whole Earth eschewed politics and pushed grass-roots direct power—tools and skills."
13:06 < Llamamoe> The only fragment of it that I can comfortably put into words is this: Think of the world as a neural network performing gradient descent, as defined by a value function which is the product of value functions of individual humans, functions shaped by the surrounding system.
13:07 < kanzure> https://meet.google.com/kob-cqjv-bat
13:07 < fenn> .title
13:07 < saxo> Meet
13:07 < fenn> what is it
13:07 < yashgaroth> stuff
13:07 < kanzure> just us
13:08 < Llamamoe> On top of that are the dynamics of interactions. Cooperation, compeition, control, power, agency.
13:08 < Llamamoe> Cooperation is incentivized by a stake in collective good, competition intrinsically. "true cooperation" is different from "competitive compromise pseudo-cooperation", the latter riddled with long-term issues of compounding consequences of inequality intrinsic to all interactions. Centralization of power is in a way "self-cooperation", and it's in its interest to dominate cooperative interactions, and preclude com
13:08 < Llamamoe> lso results in centralization of control.
13:08 < Llamamoe> Those are two pieces of the picture I'm trying to paint, but not its whole.
13:08 < Llamamoe> I want changes to the world that influence its trajectory as it pertains to the evolution of freedom, and not to the presence of absence of individual freedoms
13:09 < fenn> sounds like you've got a hammer and are looking for nails
13:09 < Llamamoe> Does... this make any sense?
13:09 < Llamamoe> kanzure: I don't voice/video, sorry
13:09 < fenn> can we please use jitsi instead
13:10 < Llamamoe> if it does not, I give up for now. If it does, I'm satisfied.
13:10 < kanzure> setup a jitsi then
13:10 < fenn> http://meet.jit.si/kob-cqjv-bat
13:11 < Llamamoe> fenn: Urchin[emacs]: You've been reading most of what I've been saying, does it make sense to you?
13:11  * Urchin[emacs] shrugs
13:11 < kanzure> done
13:12 < Llamamoe> Does it convey anything of what I try to convey? I know I am clumsy with words, and ultimately I do not even have a guarantee of my thoughts being sane in the first place
13:12  * lsneff is thinking 
13:21 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/m-labs/nmigen
13:21 < saxo> GitHub - m-labs/nmigen: A refreshed Python toolbox for building complex digital hardware
13:31 < kanzure> lsneff: https://twitter.com/johndmcmaster
13:31 < kanzure> http://www.righto.com/
13:31 < kanzure> https://twitter.com/szeloof
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13:42 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/paintschainer/virtuality0.png
14:01 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8OnoxKotPQ
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16:57 < lsneff> Does Robert McIntyre ever stop by here?
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18:12 < docl> he has in the past, haven't seen him lately
18:39 < kanzure> he's on an "as needed" basis
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21:34 < lsneff> I see
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 29 00:00:30 2020