--- Log opened Sun Dec 13 00:00:45 2020 00:39 < apotheon> lsneff: Write an article of your own that explains why those arguments are wrong, then. Someone has to see an effective counterargument before that counterargument will affect the likelihood of continuing to repeat the original arguments. 00:46 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180217.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:06 -!- mrdata- [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:07 -!- mrdata- [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:39 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:7479:697d:bd30:eb04] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:13 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:10 < andytoshi> apotheon: i mean, i'm skimming the article and i think this stuff was covered in parfits "reasons and persons" which is literally covered in philosophy 101 these days 08:10 < andytoshi> at least the teletransporter chapter :P since that's what phil101 students are there for 08:14 < L29Ah> tfw people talk about the ship of theseus never naming it 08:14 < L29Ah> tl;dr 08:15 < andytoshi> this article is so weird, it keeps saying "there is no way in principle to test or measure the claims i am making, or distinguish a world in which i'm right" and then the next sentence is "since i'm right, blah blah blah". it does this repeatedly 08:21 < kanzure> hmph 08:46 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:09 < fenn> behaviorally conditioned immunosuppression, it's a thing. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/215/4539/1534 09:10 < kanzure> .title 09:11 < saxo> Behaviorally conditioned immunosuppression and murine systemic lupus erythematosus | Science 10:13 < apotheon> andytoshi: What's the likelihood of the people writing these things having taken Philosophy 101? 10:15 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jrgydfscxxdqtluf] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 < apotheon> If the actual complaint is that people writing blog articles haven't read philosophy texts, it's a weird complaint. 10:17 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19 < apotheon> I'm not sure Parfit actually conclusively demonstrates that this blog post is wrong, though. Doesn't he just present the "you might be a different person every second of the day" argument in manner similar to Russell's teapot? 10:21 < apotheon> damn 10:21 < apotheon> Now I need to get a new copy of that book. 10:56 < andytoshi> apotheon: yeah, my point was not that parfit rebukes the post 10:56 < andytoshi> just that the post says nothing of substance that parfit didn't 10:56 < andytoshi> i don't think you really can refute the post, it's roughly "philosophical zombies are totally a thing" repeated over and over 10:57 < kanzure> what if i am a p-zombie myself? 10:57 < kanzure> waste of time- just build tihngs 10:58 < andytoshi> :) 10:58 < L29Ah> that's what capitalism wants you to do! 10:58 < L29Ah> s/do/think/ 10:59 < apotheon> andytoshi: Ah, I thought you were saying it was debunked in advance by Parfit, because of the fact Parfit seems to come to a different final conclusion (the blog post seems to suggest that the same person exists from moment to moment, but admits there's no proof it's not the same person from moment to moment). 11:00 < apotheon> (that's how I read it, anyway) 11:01 < andytoshi> ah, no, i think they both describe the situation reasonably well, the blog post keeps bringing up the unjustified conclusion "identity cannot split or merge" 11:01 < andytoshi> and parfit is like "sure seems like you can't make sense of identity that doesn't split or merge" 11:02 < apotheon> One seems to argue without sufficient support that identity cannot split or merge, and the other seems to argue that a lack of imagination about alternatives proves that an idea must be true. 11:03 < apotheon> "an idea" being the idea that identity can split or merge 11:04 < apotheon> There are definitely holes in the blog post's conclusions; the actual conclusion should be "we don't know, therefore we should be careful and not jump to wish-fulfillment conclusions that may be the opposite of what we want". 11:04 < andytoshi> yeah. i haven't thought about this much more than "parfit summarized all the thoughts i might have, now i can go build stuff instead of having those thoughts" 11:04 < apotheon> (or, at least, that the person who wrote it doesn't know) 11:04 < L29Ah> .t https://archive.org/details/importanceofwhat00harr/page/117/mode/2up 11:04 < saxo> The importance of what we care about : philosophical essays : Frankfurt, Harry G., 1929- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive 11:04 < andytoshi> but your summary matches mine 11:05 < apotheon> coolio 11:06 < apotheon> (disclaimer: I may have actually majored in philosophy, and thus think and talk rather more about stuff like this than most people have the patience to endure for long because they have better things to do.) 11:10 < andytoshi> hah. i'd like to have majored in philosophy, it does sound like fun 11:20 < fenn> the article proves that philosopher-zombies are totally a thing 11:21 < lsneff> are you referring to the author? 11:21 < fenn> of course 11:21 < fenn> disclaimer: i haven't actually read the article 11:22 < apotheon> Philosophy majors often get to include very weird courses in their majors. I took a class named (I kid you not) "Death". 11:22 < apotheon> I know of someone who had a course called something like "Philosophy and Science Fiction". 11:23 < apotheon> Anyway, maybe the person who wrote the article was just trying to present the ideas to the kinds of people who haven't read the relevant materials elsewhere. 11:23 < apotheon> I'll just assume the best case. 11:29 < lsneff> In this case, that's wishful thinking but, for sure, it's good to assume the best in most contexts. 11:30 < L29Ah> i assume i won't die 11:31 < lsneff> As do I. 11:34 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:40 < apotheon> hmm 11:40 < apotheon> My experience is that it's best to assume the best of other people in one's interactions, but the worst in one's preparations. 12:02 < lsneff> .wik deep hypothermic circulatory arrest 12:02 < saxo> "Deep hypothermic circulatory arrest (DHCA) is a surgical technique that induces deep medical hypothermia. It involves cooling the body to temperatures between 20 °C (68 °F) to 25 °C (77 °F), and stopping blood circulation and brain function for up to one hour." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_hypothermic_circulatory_arrest 12:02 < lsneff> "total inactivation of the brain by cooling" 12:04 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180217.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:13 < archels> .title https://twitter.com/quixoticgeek/status/1338077496554741760 12:13 < saxo> No title found 12:14 < archels> new import regulations for EU starting 2021 might affect ordering electronics parts from outside of Europe 12:15 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:18 < lsneff> That's interesting. 12:18 < lsneff> archels: what is your opinion of regulations like that having more teeth? 12:43 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:08 < fenn> they got ROHS to work 14:04 -!- filipepe_ [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-chdwqnkztvqdoeht] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:08 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-177-48-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11 -!- christianbundy [~christian@209-172-27-121.heliobroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:11 -!- christianbundy [~christian@209-172-27-121.heliobroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:11 -!- christianbundy [~christian@unaffiliated/christianbundy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:11 -!- Human_G33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:16 -!- christianbundy [~christian@unaffiliated/christianbundy] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9] 14:22 -!- christianbundy [~christian@209-172-27-121.heliobroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:22 -!- christianbundy [~christian@209-172-27-121.heliobroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:22 -!- christianbundy [~christian@unaffiliated/christianbundy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 -!- filipepe_ is now known as filipepe 14:42 -!- christianbundy [~christian@unaffiliated/christianbundy] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9] 14:56 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:57 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jrgydfscxxdqtluf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:23 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:25 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:33 -!- filipepe [uid362247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-chdwqnkztvqdoeht] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:55 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:21 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:23 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:7479:697d:bd30:eb04] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180200.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:15 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180200.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:26 -!- apotheon [~apotheon@copyfree/founder/apotheon] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:08 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Mon Dec 14 00:00:46 2020