--- Log opened Sun Jan 10 00:00:11 2021 00:02 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:17 < archels> lsneff: dang son. get well soon 00:35 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:40 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:57 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:48 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:09 < dunno> is transhumanism about being superhuman? 02:14 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:44 < jrayhawk> you have four years of history here, you tell me 02:56 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:06 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:18 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:33 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:08 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:81b4:f940:8e49:7bdd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:19 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:46 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:49 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:30 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vpcflklpoxfmapbh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:09 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:00 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:25 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180018.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:12 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:44 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:20 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:25 < kanzure> nmz787_: for what repoistory 09:26 < kanzure> huh, culture_shock.git and diyhpluswiki.git 09:31 < juri_> congrats. 09:59 -!- faceface [~faceface@unaffiliated/faceface] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:07 < kanzure> "Technological advances in elite marathon performance" https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.26.20248861v1 10:58 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:49 -!- jwd [~jwd@47.185.210.100] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:49 < jwd> Hello, everyone. 12:07 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:29 < L29Ah> they just banned efficient bicycles when it became apparent that they help cyclists to win 12:30 < L29Ah> now the popular competitive sports is stuck with 50 years old bicycle designs 12:48 < jwd> Sports are about spectacle, not about absolute human performance. 12:52 < L29Ah> then it's weird that anabolic steroids are banned 12:52 < L29Ah> pumped-up sportsmen are certainly more capable at pulling a good show 12:53 < apotheon> Even blood doping is banned. 12:53 < apotheon> "Yeah, I got in trouble for injecting something into my blood -- more of my own blood." 12:57 < jwd> I agree. That's why I stopped watching the Olympics. 12:58 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: What is the bicycle design? 12:58 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_bicycle 13:02 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Is that the bicycle that's banned in cycling? 13:02 < L29Ah> no, it's the one that's allowed 13:02 < Llamamoe> Which one is banned? 13:02 < L29Ah> the efficient ones look like http://www.russo-speedbike.com/metastretto/ 13:03 -!- Codaraxis [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:03 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: W-whaa 13:03 < Llamamoe> I want one of those 13:03 < Llamamoe> O_O 13:03 < Llamamoe> HECC 13:03 < Llamamoe> The position looks awkward as hell 13:04 < Llamamoe> Like this definitively needs optics or screens of some sort doesn't it? 13:04 < Llamamoe> It looks like recumbent bicycle on steroids 13:04 < L29Ah> it is 13:05 < apotheon> I suspect that bicycle design is banned because you can't see the riders. 13:05 < L29Ah> there are more practical commuter things, usually called "velomobiles" 13:05 < apotheon> It probably makes for a boring televised event if all you see is a bunch of escape pods in the Alps for a month. 13:05 < L29Ah> apotheon: the first banned design was a regular upright bicycle with an aerodynamic tail attached AFAIR 13:05 < apotheon> ah 13:05 < apotheon> well 13:06 < apotheon> That'd be more audience-compatible. 13:06 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Is there a list of designs they banned? 13:06 < Llamamoe> It sounds worth referencing 13:07 < apotheon> It also doesn't look like it provides much visibility, which might be dangerous in many contexts. 13:07 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:07 < Llamamoe> Could put a flag on it xD 13:08 < apotheon> I mean ability to see what's around you when riding, not being seen by others. 13:08 < apotheon> It looks like the rider might basically be using a periscope that sees out a tiny window on the top of the shell. 13:09 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: well they didn't ban concrete designs, just created and subsequently tightened regulations on the bike and the other rider gear like helmets and shoes 13:10 < apotheon> Anyway, I actually enjoy a ride on a nice diamond-frame road cycle in ways that an enclosed bike just wouldn't offer. 13:10 < L29Ah> that boil down to "virtually no aerodynamic stuff, don't reduce weight to less than 6.5kg" afaiu 13:11 < fenn> as if 6 kg matters 13:11 < apotheon> Recumbents tend to be bad for upslopes, too. 13:11 < L29Ah> fenn: hell it does! 13:12 < fenn> i would spend my 6 kg on an energy storage spring pack 13:12 < L29Ah> if we're talking about competition ofc 13:24 < Llamamoe> apotheon: Why so? 13:25 < L29Ah> Llamamoe: recumbents are generally heavier than uprights and have less efficient drivetrain, so they are worse at crawling up steep climbs where aerodynamics doesn't matter much 13:25 < Llamamoe> Huh, does this apply to velomobiles etc too? 13:25 < L29Ah> i didn't notice it much myself though, but i don't live in a mountaneous area 13:35 -!- Jayson_Virissimo [~Jayson@ip98-165-142-10.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:35 < apotheon> Llamamoe: Body weight over the pedals is also a huge advantage for upslopes. 13:36 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: apotheon: Take on linear drive like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1-QJquANsE ? 13:36 < Llamamoe> Just linking stuff a bike nerd links my way ;P 13:37 < L29Ah> 00:35:37] Llamamoe: Body weight over the pedals is also a huge advantage for upslopes. 13:37 < L29Ah> it isn't 13:38 < L29Ah> adequate gear ratio is 13:38 < apotheon> That's an even bigger advantage. 13:38 < apotheon> Combine the two, and you're ahead. 13:39 < apotheon> Being significantly lighter is a better advantage than body weight over the pedals, too, but body weight over the pedals is still really nice sometimes. 13:42 < L29Ah> gearing aside, it only matters if you have problems with front wheel traction due to inadequate mass distribution and high center of mass that's characteristic of upright bicycles 13:44 < apotheon> L29Ah: It matters in that you don't have to make the muscles do all the work. 13:44 < apotheon> Gravity becomes more of an ally on part of the pedal stroke. 13:58 < L29Ah> wat 14:12 < apotheon> Have you ever just put your weight on a pedal at all? Do you never get off the seat of a bicycle on an upslope? 14:13 < apotheon> I don't understand what you find disagreeable about what I said, or why. 14:13 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:13 < apotheon> Are you telling me that there's never any mechanical advantage for getting off the seat and putting some bodyweight over the pedal? 14:16 -!- Codaraxis [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29 < fenn> that's what he's saying 14:29 < fenn> if you have adequate gear ratio, you don't need to do that. and it turns out hunkering along with a bad gear ratio is less efficient 14:30 < fenn> mechanical advantage literally means the lever ratio 14:30 < apotheon> Given a steep enough hill and/or weak enough rider (where "weak" might just be "tired"), there may be no "adequate gear ratio" by the standards of "adequate means there's no benefit to getting off the saddle". 14:31 < apotheon> The sections of the leg are also levers. 14:31 < apotheon> There are levers all over the place in the human/machine combination of a rider and bicycle. 14:32 < fenn> i think you're mostly focusing on how gravity assists with pushing down on the pedal 14:33 < fenn> people have bad intuitions about force, power, energy, and efficiency 14:33 < apotheon> I'm not sure what you think I'm actually arguing, at this point. 14:34 < fenn> your argument is that recumbents are bad for upslopes because you can ride uphill faster on a non-recumbent, given the same rider 14:34 < apotheon> Your responses to me have thus far come across as being about ten degrees off-target from what I said, as far as I've seen. 14:35 < apotheon> Sometimes, the argument I'm making actually boils down to "there are times when a diamond-frame bike allows a rider to get up a slope *at all* where an equivalent recumbent would fall over". 14:38 < L29Ah> a recumbent with a center of masses lower than the wheel axles would fall over only on 90°+ climbs (that aren't even remotely reachable with an upright bicycle) 14:38 < fenn> he means because they're at a standstill and unable to balance 14:38 < fenn> i usually see recumbent trikes fwiw 14:39 < L29Ah> yeah i have problems with balance at <1kph on my recumbent 14:39 < L29Ah> not that i frequently ride at <1kph 14:40 < L29Ah> but i think his point wasn't about sideways balance 14:51 < apotheon> Yes, my point was about sideways balance. 14:52 < apotheon> two-wheel recumbent (thus "bike" or "bicycle") 14:54 < apotheon> My grandfather had a recumbent trike, and he would've had to throw himself sideways to topple that, so obviously that's not what I was discussing. My father had a recumbent bicycle, though. 14:54 < apotheon> (The three of us rode a 30+ round trip together once a week for a while. I miss that.) 14:55 < apotheon> I haven't ridden one of those trikes, so I'm not sure from personal experience what it's like riding those up a hill. 14:55 < apotheon> Dad's recumbent bike was custom. My grandfather had something called a . . . "wind cheetah", I think. 14:56 < apotheon> Yep, Wind Cheetah. I confirmed it. 14:56 < L29Ah> oh, then indeed, a recumbent bike is at a disadvantage: you can't move your body relative to the bike easily, so riding on rough slippery forest trails are off-limits for instance 14:57 < dunno> https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56f8fae85f43a68df8d2489d/1459189911023-ZX0HZM1ONGSWJUV277OT/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kKtijf5x5S0rIV7X_qDH3dB7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UaZbTVdO5VSPAOxIcVIbmIFLIFeVDbQiz7iBIgNCzklBDD2o6CESiqIlH5ssNFrtmA/Russo_Detail_3_mirror_S.jpg 14:58 < apotheon> So . . . see above re: legitimate reasons for the Tour de France and Giro d'Italia using diamond-frame bikes instead of elongated recumbent eggs. 14:58 < dunno> the view of the rider is mirrored, i think steering might be too 14:59 < L29Ah> apotheon: there might be other reasons indeed, but the main reason is that only uprights are allowed 15:00 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180018.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00 < apotheon> I think the main reasons for not having aerodynamic cowls in something like TDF would probably be the entertainment industry value of seeing the riders struggling side by side up the hill and the horrors of having to carry that cowl's weight all the way up the mountainous passes. 15:04 < apotheon> I think the proper way to attack this, though, if you have recumbent designs that would be useful for that kind of thing, would be to create a separate sport league or separate set of (probably linked, at least conceptually) events that allow both "safety" frame bikes and recumbents. If it does well, you've got alternative sporting standards; if it actually drives the established endurance 15:04 < apotheon> bicycle tours out, you've got an overall change in the sport; if nobody likes watching it enough to bother, you know there are advantages for the old approach that need to be addressed. 15:04 < L29Ah> https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GFIP2fs44KI/UQ4pcjyKi4I/AAAAAAAABnQ/i_Ao4wzUcIo/s1600/takhion84aero-копия.jpg not a recumbent, light, see-through, banned in cycling races 15:05 < apotheon> I really don't expect to personally be drawn into recumbent biking, given the existing frame styles I've seen that have any practicality for me. 15:05 < L29Ah> due to aerodynamic advantage 15:05 < apotheon> . . . just as a matter of taste. 15:05 < apotheon> I'd be as fine watching a recumbent race as a race of diamond-frame bikes, though, all else being equal. 15:06 < apotheon> L29Ah: Is it because of the handlebar placement? 15:06 < L29Ah> yup 15:06 < apotheon> The way you said "see-through", I thought it was going to be a photo of something with a cowl. 15:07 < apotheon> I wonder if that design would be bad for control under some circumstances. 15:07 < apotheon> It would probably be *great* for high-speed downhill runs, but I'm a bit skeptical of steep upslopes at first glance. 15:08 < apotheon> I'd be interested to give it a try, just to see how it feels. 15:09 < apotheon> I probably wouldn't own one at this point in my life, though. The more general practicality of a more pragmatically flexible-purpose straight or drop bar design suits me these days. 15:09 < apotheon> I mean . . . if I liked it enough, and had the space for it, and it didn't break the bank, I might get something like that anyway -- but would probably want the best specimen available for something that is as specialized as that looks. 15:12 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:13 < L29Ah> yeah, if i would be required to ride one and only one bike, i'd pick an upright touring one, as it is quite snappy both on tarmac and forest floor 15:13 < apotheon> I try to assume good faith, and so far I'm not 100% convinced that it's just backwardness that is the sole or primary reason for rejecting that design. 15:13 < apotheon> . . . but it very well could be some Luddite impulse. I don't know. 15:14 < apotheon> I don't really need a bicycle for riding in a forest. I'd prefer a motorcycle for that. 15:14 < L29Ah> but i'm sad that the shape is now codified forever in the mainstream sports, and we probably won't see any innovation even in cyclocross/MTB sports 15:14 < apotheon> I like the zen experience of a light, smooth road bike with drop bars. 15:14 < apotheon> Otherwise, I'd rather use a motorcycle. 15:14 < apotheon> I'm sure there'll be some change, eventually. 15:15 < apotheon> It just requires a receptive audience and profit motive. 15:15 * L29Ah is a city dweller that lacks a space to store a motorcycle 15:15 < apotheon> That's very, very little space. 15:15 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:16 < L29Ah> the gasoline one is very heavy and stinks, so i can't store it in my flat 15:16 < apotheon> If you have a place to store a bicycle -- especially if you have the space for a recumbent bicycle -- you can probably keep one of these, though: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/hispotion-prod/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/motoped-survival-bike-looks-like-a-million-bucks-has-400-miles-range-photo-gallery_3.jpg 15:16 < L29Ah> so now i have an electric motor on my recumbent and 4kg worth of LiIon cells 15:16 < apotheon> ah 15:16 < apotheon> nice 15:17 < apotheon> I have two motorcycles and two bicycles. 15:17 < apotheon> not counting the missus' bicycle 15:17 < L29Ah> still that's not a lot of range 15:17 < apotheon> Carry more cells in a backpack . . . ? 15:17 < L29Ah> maybe someday i'm going to grab one of these 10kg gasoline generators lol 15:18 < apotheon> Consider diesel. 15:18 < L29Ah> diesel ones are much much heavier 15:18 < apotheon> (for a moped) 15:18 < apotheon> Is the weight a problem for you? 15:18 < apotheon> Do you have to carry the bike up stairs? 15:18 < L29Ah> and 700W provided by the lightest gasoline one are enough for 70kph on a recumbent 15:18 < L29Ah> yeah sometimes 15:18 < apotheon> That could get old. 15:19 < apotheon> Install an exterior lift to your balcony or window! Yeah! 15:19 < L29Ah> yeah thought about that, too bad i don't own a flat 15:19 < apotheon> . . . or, y'know, just do what you're doing. That's probably more sensible. 15:19 < L29Ah> would be awesome 15:19 < apotheon> yep 15:19 < apotheon> I kinda want to install a crane in the back of the pickup in case I need to winch a broken-down motorcycle into the pickup bed some day. 15:20 < apotheon> I've gotten more flat tires on one of my motorcycles than I have with all my four-wheeled vehicles and human-powered bicycles put together. 15:22 < apotheon> By the way . . . what's up with the weird way some people both argue for people to get efficient and tiny hybrid cars to cut down on emissions but pile hate on even more efficient motorcycles? I don't get it. 15:23 < dunno> ephemeralization is a nightmare 15:23 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24 < apotheon> How so? 15:24 < L29Ah> Lit Motors C1 is badass 15:24 < apotheon> (I'm guessing you're talking about R. Buckminster Fuller's "ephemeralization".) 15:24 < L29Ah> not sure if it has a hybrid option tho 15:25 < dunno> it's like seeing the whole world disappear before your eyes 15:25 < apotheon> The C1 doesn't look very fun. 15:25 < apotheon> dunno: Please explain. I'm not sure I get it. 15:25 < L29Ah> but it's efficient! 15:25 < apotheon> sure 15:26 < apotheon> It could be a decent way to get people who love low-emissions stuff but hate motorcycles to change their minds about the latter part. 15:26 < dunno> in a technological singularity, what would be the point of a recumbent bike 15:26 < apotheon> recreation 15:27 < dunno> how does a person even do engineering in a virtualized world 15:27 < apotheon> kinda like the reason many people have recumbents now 15:27 < apotheon> It doesn't have to be fully virtualized. 15:27 < L29Ah> "technological singularity" is too vague to reason about anyway 15:27 < dunno> i don't understand transhumanism at all 15:27 < apotheon> "singularity" doesn't mean "digitized"; that's just a very popular focus of discussion 15:27 < L29Ah> the singularity believers couldn't even answer me whether we are already in it 15:28 < apotheon> At its core, the idea of the technological singularity is something like "Advancement of science and tech accelerates until the rate is roughly indistinguishable from vertical and one cannot meaningfully predict what comes afterward." 15:28 < dunno> i understand everything even less now 15:29 < apotheon> I should've changed that slightly before hitting Enter, but whatever -- it's closer than necessary for government work. 15:30 < apotheon> L29Ah: Most singularitarians don't really know what they're talking about, just like most [insert just about anything here]s. 15:30 < dunno> i think people that try to fight the doomsday argument are broken somehow 15:30 < apotheon> What's "the doomsday argument"? 15:31 < dunno> it's the idea that civilizations end 15:31 < apotheon> Are you talking about the population estimate thing? 15:31 < dunno> yes 15:32 < apotheon> I guess you mean "civilizations" in the sense of "large (perhaps cultural) empires" and not "human civilization in the abstract", given that the latter lacks a significant sample set (there being only one and it hasn't yet ended). 15:33 < apotheon> I think it seems like there's a decent chance that humanity could go extinct within the next millennium or two. I wouldn't be comfortable with an estimate far from 50%, though, either way. 15:34 < apotheon> I do think that if technological advancement doesn't advance *significantly* in a less centralized way the chances of humanity survival beyond a thousand years diminishes *dramatically*. 15:34 < dunno> i don't understand people who interpret the doomsday argument as extinction either 15:35 < apotheon> probably because a lot of the proponents of the argument focus on the extinction angle of it 15:36 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38 < apotheon> It's a pretty unorthodox (socially speaking) take to assume, for instance, that the last human born will live forever, along with everyone else alive at the time. 15:38 < apotheon> The usual assumption is that after the birth of the last, people will die away until there's nobody left. 15:39 < dunno> that's a nice idea 15:41 < dunno> do people ever have chats about these things here? 15:41 < dunno> should i really be digging through the logs for more viewpoints? 15:42 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:43 < apotheon> I haven't seen anything eschatalogical here, as far as I recall, but there are sometimes walls of discussion that pass by when I'm not paying attention, and I haven't been here very long. 15:43 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@66.183.0.205] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:43 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@66.183.0.205] has quit [Changing host] 15:43 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:43 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:43 < apotheon> I suppose you could check channel logs for references to "doomsday argument". 15:43 < apotheon> . . . or just "doomsday". 15:44 < dunno> but i think that this channel has a tendency to transcend the popular interpretations of transhumanism 15:44 < apotheon> I haven't looked into it enough to really know, but I suspect a couple things about that area of discussion: 15:45 < apotheon> 1. Most who bring it up probably don't consider the fact that the end of human births happens because of other ways to proliferate. 15:46 < apotheon> 2. There is probably some erudite discussion of that angle, nonetheless. 15:46 < apotheon> (somewhere) 15:47 < L29Ah> dunno: have you read The Last Question? 15:48 < apotheon> The most common interpretations of transhuman ideas that I've seen are stupidly naïve variants of the upload-immortality idea. That might be in part as a result of things like the equally naïve pronouncements of people like Ray Kurzweil and the equally naïve writings of people like Cory Doctorow and Charles Stross. 15:50 < dunno> no i don't read much i don't like writers 15:51 < apotheon> Much better treatments can be found in the writings of Greg Egan, Vernor Vinge, and old-school William Gibson. 15:51 < dunno> but i will download the logs and grep for doomsday and dollo and other concepts that i learned about since that last time i browsed through those logs 15:51 < apotheon> I think dunno doesn't like me. 16:01 < dunno> i just happen to be bad at talking and good at killing chats 16:03 < apotheon> Well . . . you did just basically say you dislike at least half the people who were talking to you. 16:05 < dunno> so, this is a channel for writers? you people have wattpad and stuff? 16:08 < fenn> no 16:09 < fenn> "Dollo's law, biological principle, formulated about 1890 by Louis Dollo, a French-born Belgian paleontologist, that evolution is not reversible" 16:09 < fenn> "Dollo: a fully printed 3D printer" 16:09 < fenn> "Urban Dictionary: Dolo D.one O.n L.onelyby O.neself. Meaning doing something on your own without the helpor advice of others." 16:10 < fenn> i guess these are all relevant 16:11 < dunno> haha 16:12 < apotheon> dunno: I am a writer. The channel has nothing to do with it. 16:13 -!- jwd [~jwd@47.185.210.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16 < apotheon> dunno: Why don't you like writers? 16:22 < fenn> apotheon: the exposed chain on that moped looks very dangerous 16:22 < apotheon> I suppose "it depends". 16:22 < fenn> it's one thing if you're the one doing the pedaling, but a gasoline engine doesn't know when to stop 16:23 < L29Ah> i'm pretty sure there's a ratchet 16:23 < fenn> i mean getting caught in the chain 16:23 < L29Ah> ah, it'd be tricky 16:24 < apotheon> There are motorcycles with exposed chains that aren't exceptionally dangerous. The chain on that might be enough out of the way to be reasonable. 16:24 < L29Ah> i have a visceral hatred towards open chains tho 16:24 < L29Ah> as they're prone to get all sorts of shit from the road and wear out quickly 16:25 < L29Ah> at least ones w/o o-rings 16:25 < fenn> maybe i'm misunderstanding which chain is driven and which chain is pedaled 16:27 < fenn> ok so the ratchet prevents the pedals from turning when the motor is the one doing the driving 16:27 < fenn> which means only the rear half has a moving chain, which is not a big deal 16:27 < apotheon> I think there's only one drive chain, and there's an additional chain to transfer motion from the pedals to the drive chain. 16:28 < apotheon> . . . and yeah, the pedals don't turn when running on the motor on mopeds. 16:28 < fenn> there must be another ratchet so the pedals don't have to turn the motor either 16:29 < dunno> the 3d printer dollo was actually mentioned in this channel before according to logs 16:35 < dunno> but neither the doomsday argument or the dollo's law was 16:42 < fenn> shouldn't it be called "the doomsday fallacy"? it's very similar to the gambler's fallacy 16:42 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vpcflklpoxfmapbh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:43 < fenn> i just started reading about it, but it seems like the argument could have been applied at any point in history 16:45 < apotheon> fenn: That's kinda the point -- it can be applied at any point in history. 16:45 < apotheon> We happen to be at this point in history, so we apply it now. 16:46 < fenn> uh huh 16:46 < dunno> the doomsday argument was used by several people as a means to predit future and it was used in fermi paradox 16:46 < fenn> should i waste any more time reading about this? 16:46 < apotheon> It's a statistical estimation judgement. "Given what we know, applying it now -- whenever 'now' may be -- seems appropriate." 16:46 < apotheon> fenn: There are more important things to read. 16:47 < apotheon> I mean . . . there are *always* more important things to read, but there are more important things to read that are *very obviously* more important, and *much* more important. 16:47 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48 < apotheon> . . . unless this kind of thing is in your area of expertise, where it might hold special relevance, but that's unlikely given you don't seem already conversant in the basics of it. 16:48 < apotheon> (I'm . . . not especially conversant either, but that's because I quickly realized my time was better spent elsewhere.) 16:48 < apotheon> (also, it's not my area of expertise, either) 16:48 < fenn> dunno: this kind of statistics/philosophy/anthropics wankery is not really welcome in the channel. you would find people more versed in the relevant jargon/philosophy over at lesswrong, and would get better answers 16:49 < dunno> so what is transhumanism about if not about future 16:49 < fenn> overcoming limitations, transcending the human condition 16:50 < fenn> these things are not guaranteed to happen; we have to make them happen 16:51 < fenn> so we also talk about the proactionary principle and related positions, and DIY science/tech 16:52 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:55 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:56 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57 -!- HumanG33k [~HumanG33k@82-64-99-84.subs.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:58 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:03 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:81b4:f940:8e49:7bdd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04 < dunno> so that means that you don't care about the future? 17:15 < dunno> this channel is more like retrofuturism 17:56 < apotheon> dunno: No, it doesn't mean that. 17:58 < apotheon> I guess a dislike for reading might result in poor reading comprehension. 18:41 < fenn> http://youtu.be/QDppJ9NWtaE dynamic deformable surface projection mapping 18:41 < fenn> their shaders need work 18:45 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52 < L29Ah> dunno: i care about a lot more stuff in the future than the total number of humans 19:09 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23 < fltrz> dunno, transhumanism is just a religion for pseudoscientists who need a placebo god, but still want to view themselves as atheist. "Allah Akbar" (there is only one God) where God is systematically viewed as some synonym for "physics / the future". "There is only one Future (that you will have experienced)" or perhaps "There is only one singularity" etc. They think they are the first to reinterpret religious concepts as everyday concepts, while 19:23 < fltrz> mysticists of all regligions claim that was the real meaning all along... Atheists just stand by wondering why these scientists need yet another religion?? 19:27 < fenn> how about calling those people singularitarians and leaving us proper transhumanists out of it 19:29 < fenn> fltrz do you think optimism is a religion? 19:29 < fenn> pessimism? cynicism? 19:30 < fltrz> fenn, I think science and even math are a collection of religions yes 19:30 < fenn> you're polluting language and should shut the hell up then 19:31 < fltrz> axioms postulates etc are dogmatic, and inconsistencies can be found any time. Russel paradox is an example in math, every revolution in physics finds errors in previous belief systems... The desire to create an in vs outgroup is strong in every religion, science and math are no exception 19:32 < dunno> fltrz, i said something nearly exactly like that to one person in a chat, and this person said at some point: i hated chatting with you 19:32 < fltrz> dunno, exactly like that, the older comment, or the 2 right before your last? 19:33 < dunno> all three 19:33 < fltrz> dunno, its ok if people hate chatting with you, the important thing is you (temporarily or permanently) broadened their viewpoint. People tend not to like that as in "more things to take into account" 19:34 < fenn> dunno doesn't like reading things 19:34 < fenn> does that mean dunno has a narrow viewpoint? 19:34 < dunno> yup. 19:35 < fltrz> if its science or math, I prefer reading, if its entertainment or porn I prefer videos... 19:36 < dunno> i don't like novel writers or journalists for example 19:36 < dunno> or scriptwriters 19:37 < dunno> i actually talked with people about this here before, about scriptwriters 19:39 < fltrz> dunno, a funny thing is because scriptwriters overuse and reuse the same tricks etc, that there is room for experimental styles that make use of these preconditioned 'surprise' 'plot twist' story elements. Rubber, Deerskin, ... are examples of "absurdist" movies that remain entertaining even though there isnt much of a movie in hindsight 20:21 -!- Codaraxis__ [~Codaraxis@141.98.255.144] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:24 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:07 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:39 -!- Jayson_Virissimo [~Jayson@ip98-165-142-10.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 22:46 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] --- Log closed Mon Jan 11 00:00:12 2021