--- Log opened Thu Jan 14 00:00:14 2021
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00:59 < dunno> apotheon was talking about the tvtropes page, it doesn't have "religion" section, it has "real life" section
00:59 < dunno> fltrz, you're welcome.
01:00 < dunno> no, it has "myth & religion" secion
01:02 < dunno> and it mentions Corinthians there
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02:59 < Urchin[emacs]> αβγδ
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08:22 < juri_> lsneff: some internal application. I'm a backend engineer by trade.
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09:01 < apotheon> fenn: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien
09:01 < apotheon> fenn: Text search on the page for "religion".  Click there.
09:04 < apotheon> fenn: At the bottom of each article is a list of "examples".  There's a little file folder icon; click it and that example section opens up to show you examples of that trope in various related media (or, rather, contexts; "Religion" isn't a medium the same way as something like "Comic Books" or "Video Games").
09:04 < fenn> well, i could argue about this, but i don't care
09:04  * fenn gives you a cookie of surrender
09:05 < apotheon> fenn: I did open it in a browser with scripting turned on, so maybe you wouldn't see the examples if you have scripting turned off or some particular adblocker.
09:05 < apotheon> I don't see what there is to argue about.  Open a webpage, click something, see that the Mormon Jesus is mentioned.
09:05 < fenn> ok, i did it
09:06 < fenn> oh!
09:06 < fenn> i had been reading what you said wrongly
09:07 < fenn> you said "is in the Sufficiently Advanced Aliens entry" meaning literally "is on the tvtropes page"
09:07 < fenn> i thought you meant "can be considered a Sufficiently Advanced Alien" [according to mormon dogma]
09:08 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Universal_Friend
09:09 < fenn> your own personal jesus
09:10 < fenn> just call 1-800-PU-FREND
09:10 < kanzure> probably just a memory allocation bug in the simulation, it's like getting a name out of a jvm program that reads "public static int main"
09:11 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_class
09:12 < fenn> um, ok this isn't a java class type https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_class
09:14 < apotheon> It's a Hegelian class type!
09:15 < apotheon> public bureaucratic hegelian main
09:15 < apotheon> (where "public bureaucratic" is that class which Hegel identified as the universal class)
09:16 < fenn> "main" means the class type you most frequently play in e-sports
09:17 < fenn> clearly there's a media business opportunity here. Live Bureaucracy! see who can shuffle papers the slowest!
09:38 < apotheon> . . . so a sleep aid?
09:38 < superkuh> My filing technique is unstoppable.
09:39 < superkuh> http://www.mnftiu.cc/category/filing/
09:49 < L29Ah> got vaccinated with Sputnik V: found no chips in the syringe, what a trickery!
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10:44 < fenn> gratz
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10:52 < apotheon> odear
10:52 < apotheon> I just had a weird idea.
10:52 < apotheon> hmm
10:52 < apotheon> Nope, never mind.  It'll never work.
11:00 < Llamamoe> superkuh: What is that
11:00 < superkuh> A historical site. It was very popular back around 2000-2003.
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11:23 < fenn> thanks, i hate it
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16:09 < kanzure> so twitter bans scihub but not the pirate bay? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25779367
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16:21 < fltrz> apotheon, what was the idea?
16:22 < fltrz> L29Ah, why would you expect chips in a vaccine? thats just gov disinfo to distract from actual unethical behavior (foreskin harvesting)
16:23 < fltrz> government and / or medical industrial complex disinformation campaign
16:26 < fltrz> check out Mirage Men as an example of top down disinformation campaign, US gov institutions heavily amplified UFO mythology to lower signal to noise ratio of any flight technology and tests near airbases
16:29 < L29Ah> fltrz: just a common trope to gag about
16:40 < fenn> there were only like 2 years between fetal stem cell ban and the invention of IPSC, where "foreskin harvesting" would make any economic sense
16:41 < L29Ah> IPSC has caveats
16:41 < fenn> it works too well?
16:41 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell#Safety
16:42 < fenn> yes exactly. teratomas. because they've reverted all the way back to fetal stem cells
16:43 < fenn> embryonic stem cell
16:43 < fltrz> L29Ah, if you haven't seen Mirage Men I still recommend it, its the kind of stuff in clear violation of domestic propaganda laws (was it the smith mundt act?)
16:45 < fenn> can we talk about the real villain
16:45 < fenn> em-dashes
16:45 < fltrz> fenn, but they typically start from foreskin fibroblasts for IPSC
16:45 < fltrz> fenn, also https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/human-foreskin-vaccines-zombie-myth/
16:45 < fenn> they take a perfectly good ascii hyphen and turn it into a monster
16:45 < L29Ah> wut laws
16:46 < fltrz> L29Ah, US government prohibited itself to use disinformation against its own populace
16:46 < L29Ah> that's unsurprising
16:46 < fltrz> "that" is vague?
16:47 < L29Ah> that it did prohibit and did violate the prohibition
16:48 < fltrz> of course, not claiming it was being respected. but most people wouldn't have expected government to amplify UFO and alien mythology
16:49 < fltrz> L29Ah, its a fascinating documentary, not boring
16:49 < L29Ah> i live in .ru, i'm accustomized of government doing all kinds of evil stuff
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16:50 < fltrz> L29Ah, theres a useful distinction between being accustomed and having unraveled history
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16:51 < fenn> did they drug and abduct people in silent helicopters and then probe them?
16:51 < fenn> because that would make for a pretty convincing UFO mythology
16:51 < fltrz> L29Ah, all I meant was put the documentary on your watch list for later, you won't regret
16:54 < L29Ah> ok :)
16:57 < fltrz> a large branch of the mythology started when an electrical engineer and HAM radio enthusiast happened to live across a US airfield and saw secret flight system tests, and couldn't explain what he was seeing. so he contacted the airbase, who had a public relations manager whose job description included distracting with disinformation in case questions pop up. So the best disinformation is to pretend you know nothing and ask the curious / concerned
16:57 < fltrz> person what it might be. The engineer did not suspect aliens until this point. But since the airbase claimed to know nothing the engineer became more concerned and concluded that however unlikely it might be aliens. The military PR officer follows his instructions to confirm / amplify erroneous explanations while changing subject of more valid explanations
16:58 < fenn> and we know this because... they told us. right
16:59 < fltrz> they don't put (much) effort in constructing the alternate wrong explanations (because then you have to predict and guess what the curious consider likely or credible), they just amplify erroneous alternatives the curious bring up (since that guarantees a subjectively higher likelyhood estimation of the curious)
16:59 < fltrz> fenn, YES
16:59 < fenn> aren't you just falling for the same trap, but at a higher meta level?
17:00 < fltrz> fenn, check out Mirage Men, and then you can do your own research on the names, its all publicly documented
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17:01 < fltrz> fenn, well its not falling in a trap, we will never know exactly what boring flight tests they did, nor do we care, we care about the fact and modus operandi of how they conduct disinformation
17:02 < fltrz> its a sad story because it kind of ruined the engineers life, he ended up in mental institution
17:03 < fenn> do you think the US government actively opposes education about epistemology?
17:04 < L29Ah> shouldn't epistemology be included in the primary school curriculum?
17:04 < fenn> my high school made a big deal about "critical thinking" but as far as i can tell we never actually practiced or understood what the phrase even meant
17:05 < fltrz> fenn, I believe none of what I said (as a pattern) is specific to the US, all nation states or interest groups use similar techniques
17:07 < fltrz> also while the disinformation seems directed at the person who detects the activity (kept hidden), its really directed at the public, and the person who detected it is just abused as the messenger
17:07 < fltrz> never speak in your own name, let the observer speak the message
17:07 < fltrz> its a great documentary
17:08 < fltrz> fenn, and yes, towards the end they insinuate this meta level double bottom...
17:09 < fltrz> fenn, and no I don't believe the US actually has access to aliens / alien tech and made Mirage Men to pretend it was "oops just disinfo campaign, sorry". that doesn't make sense
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17:09 < fenn> why doesn't it make sense?
17:09 < fenn> also both could be true
17:10 < fltrz> fenn, because one would change subject and amplify the *wrong* explanations
17:11 < fenn> they do conduct weather balloon tests, but also use weather balloons to distract from the spy planes
17:12 < fltrz> I don't understand the point you are trying to make
17:12 < fenn> my point is you can't use "UFO is a govt disinfo campaign" to disprove UFO
17:13 < fenn> and there are many competing UFO mythologies
17:13 < fenn> i feel like the world really needs an epistemology tune-up
17:14 < fenn> not like i'm some epistemology superhero, but just look around
17:14 < fltrz> fenn, I'm not disproving UFO, I'm disproving the mythology, and disproving an entities access to / knowledge of alien tech, since in such a case they would have amplified another mythology (desert bigfoot or whatever)
17:14 < fenn> conspiracy theorists everywhere you look
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17:17 < fenn> how would bigfoot explain odd flying things near an airbase?
17:17 < fltrz> fenn, the fact they amplified alien mythology indicates that they are either A) unaware of any alien activity (my claim), or B) are aware of alien activity but don't care about keeping it secret (but then why don't we have public access to the governments knowledge of aliens? ergo we must be in case A, not this case B
17:18 < fenn> maybe the guy on the phone didn't know about the super duper top secret alien program
17:18 < fltrz> fenn, it doesn't need to explain it objectively, and the engineer probably would have come up with an alternative more credible explanation
17:19 < fltrz> fenn, he doesn't need to know, a hypothetical super duper top secret program would correct his behavior or change his position in a timely fashion so as not to amplify alien awareness
17:20 < fenn> how?
17:20 < fenn> that's a non-plausibly-deniable information leak
17:21 < fltrz> fenn, easy the top can just claim it was decided that UFO was too incredulous, just call it the russians or whatever
17:22 < fltrz> also changing the PR officers position and task, replaces his behavior with another
17:23 < fenn> pretty soon you have a bunch of ex PR officers in a pub swapping stories about how they got fired for talking about aliens
17:23 < fltrz> fenn, they didn't get fired, they did their job so well they got a promotion!
17:23 < fenn> same thing
17:24 < fltrz> nope, because now they have a promotion for supposedly deluding the curious into believing his own UFO bullshit
17:24 < fenn> except there is no widely known UFO mythology in this counterfactual
17:24 < fenn> instead the general public believes they are being visited by angels
17:25 < fltrz> fenn, you can't have it both ways, and the top can actively measure what PR officer interpretation is by sending a fake "curious citizen"
17:25 < fltrz> fenn, you changed the initiator
17:26 < fltrz> fenn, suppose the engineer had the incorrect interpretation that it was angels, the PR officer would have run with THAT
17:26 < fltrz> an ABX test doesn't lie
17:31 < fenn> let me back up a bit
17:32 < fenn> how do you know that UFO is a disinfo campaign?
17:34 < fltrz> check the documentary
17:36  * L29Ah sprinkles soma on fenn and fltrz
17:38  * fenn zonks out
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17:51 < Malvolio> everything is under control
17:52 < L29Ah> 03:42:19]<fenn> yes exactly. teratomas. because they've reverted all the way back to fetal stem cells
17:52 < L29Ah> > Such studies are crucial since iPSCs not only form teratoma, but also mice derived from iPSCs have a high incidence of death from malignant cancer.[61] A 2010 paper was published in the journal Stem Cells indicating that iPS cells are far more tumorigenic than ESC, supporting the notion that iPS cell safety is a serious concern.[62]
17:54 < fenn> fair point
17:54 < fenn> if you're using them as primary cell tissue culture, that's sort of an advantage
17:54 < fenn> not "tumorigenic" but many cycles of division before they go senescent
17:55 < fenn> there could be some other epigenetic thing going on though
18:01 < fltrz> fenn, but what primary cells are predominantly used to turn into iPSC's?
18:01 < fltrz> (for human cells)
18:06 < fenn> let me guess, foreskins
18:06 < fenn> because there are just piles of them
18:08 < fenn> there's not many healthy organs that are routinely removed
18:09 < fenn> tooth pulp?
18:09 < fenn> cord blood?
18:11 < fenn> 'Yamanaka named iPSCs with a lower case "i" due to the popularity of the iPod'
18:21 < fltrz> fenn, then why did you state "<fenn> there were only like 2 years between fetal stem cell ban and the invention of IPSC, where "foreskin harvesting" would make any economic sense" ?
18:22 < fenn> i didn't think they used foreskins
18:23 < fenn> i thought it was cheek swabs or white blood cells
18:23 < fenn> something like that
18:23 < fltrz> then why make such a statement, if I literally inform you of the contrary the line before?
18:24 < fenn> because other peoples' political crusades are annoying
18:24 < fltrz> a person who thinks its cheek swabs would look it up before contradicting it
18:25 < fenn> i'm lazy and i want to exit this conversation
18:26 < fltrz> just want to point out that processing a youth trauma is not a political crusade
18:26 < fenn> it totally is
18:26 < fltrz> its the other way around, a conflict of interests is a political crusade
18:27 < fenn> anyway, you can't change who you are
18:27 < fenn> so good luck with your crusade
18:27 < L29Ah> can we donate foreskin cells for fltrz to grow his foreskin, or even get his own phimosis?
18:28 < fltrz> L29Ah, I have most of my foreskin
18:30 < fltrz> regarding phimosis, that was the false cover reason to perform partial circumcision that I objected to. The end result was infibulation (=artificially caused phimosis)
18:34 < fltrz> L29Ah, I don't need someone else's stolen fibroblasts, I need justice and a change in society so that circumcision is criminalized for children and non-informed consenting adults
18:36 < fltrz> L29Ah, to the extent it is already criminal in my jurisdiction, I need proactive enforcement to uphold the law.
18:39 < nmz787_> https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/circumcision-separating-science-opinion/
18:39 < nmz787_> linked from a previous link
18:39 < nmz787_> the medical arguments for seem a little weak
18:39 < nmz787_> (I didn't click on the references)
18:40 < nmz787_> phimosis sounds bad
18:40 < nmz787_> it's something I've wondered about my son
18:40 < nmz787_> he's not 3 yet tho
18:40 < nmz787_> the article I just linked mentions people piercing little girls' ears and being OK with it.. but it seems like in the same/similar category to me
18:40 < nmz787_> I gave me friend with a daughter a little bit of shit over it
18:41 < fltrz> nmz787_, I'm aware the site brushes away ethical considerations of circumcision, I cited it hermeneutically: to point out its not crackpottery to claim foreskins are harvested and traded
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18:42 < nmz787_> "hermeneutically" that's a new word
18:42 < fltrz> nmz787_, even if a person has phimosis, the first course of action would be topical steroids, not circumcision, and only when the child has grown up
18:42 < apotheon> fltrz: I forgot.
18:43 < fltrz> nmz787_, hermeneutic citation is to cite a person for what they admit or claim to be true, not as a sign of support for their beliefs or ethical judgments
18:43 < fltrz> apotheon, what did you forget?
18:43 < nmz787_> ah, well hopefully he doesn't get it... he pulls on it enough, so I guess I can call that a healthy behavior if it prevents him from getting phimosis
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18:44 < apotheon> 18:52 < apotheon> I just had a weird idea.
18:44 < apotheon> 00:21 < fltrz> apotheon, what was the idea?
18:44 < apotheon> I must've dropped it straight out of my brain after realizing it wouldn't work.
18:44 < fltrz> nmz787_, make sure you don't try to force it over the glans, as that can cause inflammation and scarring of the foreskin, supposedly a common cause of phimosis
18:45  * L29Ah wonders which justice he wants
18:45  * L29Ah shoves anarcho-capitalism off as too unpopular
18:45 < apotheon> I seem to have stumbled into a discussion of circumcision.
18:45 < fltrz> apotheon, feel free to stumble ;)
18:45  * L29Ah settles on children becoming free from compulsory education
18:46  * L29Ah wonders if it's too unpopular as well
18:46 < fltrz> L29Ah, I believe neutral education is possible and discussed it before
18:46 < L29Ah> oh damn, i guess unpopular justice is unpopular by definition
18:46  * L29Ah returns to anarcho-capitalism
18:48 < fltrz> L29Ah, if a system (somehow respecting privacy) tracked each citizens knowledge (say derivative of e^x = e^x), and knew (again provably respecting privacy) the income of each person, then their knowledge could be proportionally weighted. Buy a sound card? you are implicitly promoting the education of electronics, linear systems theory, ...
18:48 < apotheon> What about agoristic panarchism?
18:48 < apotheon> That seems fun.
18:49 < fltrz> pay air travel service for a vacation? implicitly upvoting value of navier stokes equations etc
18:50 < fltrz> L29Ah, what do you think about my committee-less neutral / utilitarian idea?
18:51 < L29Ah> fltrz: your system is too magic, sorry
18:51 < fltrz> * "committee-less neutral / utilitarian *education* idea"
18:51 < fltrz> L29Ah, which part seems magic?
18:51 < L29Ah> apotheon: might work and has a lot of common stuff to do with anarcho-capitalism
18:52 < L29Ah> fltrz: the system being respectful and resistant to gaming
18:52 < nmz787_> I am definitely for compulsory education, but don't really want traditional education systems to be the focus
18:52 < nmz787_> but like, I definitely don't want some kid who is dumber than I am
18:53 < L29Ah> that's easy: don't make kids
18:53 < L29Ah> leave it to specialists
18:53 < nmz787_> the whole point of having him was because I suck at a bunch of stuff due to a poor upbringing and not learning at the early age where I wasn't clouded with depression of the human condition
18:56 < nmz787_> the whole point of him having his foreskin was because I was DENIED the right to cut it off MYSELF!
18:56 < nmz787_> (ok, maybe I didn't ever think of it in that way)
18:57 < fltrz> nmz787_, ?? what can you elaborate on being denied, what was your motivation?
18:57 < nmz787_> the whole sex is  better thing mostly was intriguing and a bit saddening, mostly when I was in the height of puberty
18:59 < fenn> .wik sudbury school
18:59 < saxo> "A Sudbury school is a type of school, usually for the K-12 age range, where students have complete responsibility for their own education, and the school is run by a direct democracy in which students and staff are equal citizens." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
18:59 < fenn> they seem to turn out alright
18:59 < fltrz> thats just part of the long historical list of cover reasons for performing circumcision because the truth is its a group trauma (an over reaction to something else) that few people talk about
19:00 < Malvolio> so all these people believe that the almighty made a mistake in designing our... organs... that they couldn't fix themselves
19:01 < fltrz> fenn, yes theres similar types of school here in mainland europe, they *do* turn out to be alright, and I knew a girl who teached a few years at such a school. the reality is that it is more marketing than anything else, all schools must legally show the same concepts (minutely defined by law) for the equivalent class across schools
19:01 < L29Ah> as a privileged person with an intact foreskin i must assure you that sex is little more than masturbation combined with cuddles and aerobics
19:01 < fltrz> Malvolio, thank you
19:01 < fenn> legally, or else what
19:02 < fenn> do they send in storm troopers to shoot all the kids?
19:02 < fltrz> fenn, the school loses funding lol
19:02 < fenn> well sucks to be poor then
19:02 < fenn> geez i thought europe was supposed to be more civilizated
19:03 < fenn> so democracy and the right to self determination is only for rich children? is that what you just said?
19:03 < fltrz> the school disappears, also, theres adults that actually run the show, and ultimately the direct democracy aspect is a show
19:03 < lsneff> That's quite sad.
19:04 < fltrz> fenn, what happens in practice is that the those democratic schools are effectively identical to the other non theological schools
19:04 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School is a private school
19:04 < fenn> huh? i wasn't aware this had anything to do with theology
19:05 < fenn> based on my reading they mostly make ridiculously intricate models out of clay
19:05 < fltrz> fenn, what I meant is that the catholic schools in flanders still have a lot of differences with the non theologically affiliated schools (they go mass / confession, etc)
19:08 < fltrz> while the supposedly democratic schools are quite similar to the normal schools, except for a few things like 2 years are mixed in the same class
19:08 < fltrz> dont ask me why plz
19:08 < fenn> well yeah if their existence is predicated on an elaborately micro-specified curriculum, then how could there be any difference
19:08 < fltrz> exactly
19:08 < fenn> it's totally missing the point
19:09 < fltrz> fenn, so curriculum wise they are identical, but they might have a vote on having a class fish in an aquarium etc...
19:09 < lsneff> This may be slightly relevant: I homeschooled for several years in middle school and high school
19:09 < fenn> self determination doesn't mean "it's up to you to figure out how to flip this burger patty a thousand times"
19:10 < fenn> it doesn't mean "let's vote on how to flip the burger to satisfy the boss's demand"
19:10 < fltrz> actually the girl that taught for while in such a school (and became progressively disillusioned with it) described the following to me: one of the kids had a dog and brought it to class regularly, but sometimes this caused trouble, or some kids decided they didn't like that after all (I suspect occasional peeing or defecating in the class), and then the class changed the rules so the dog was no longer allowed, which made the pupil very sad
19:11 < fenn> okay?
19:11 < fltrz> fenn, its exactly the last example you gave that the schools end up in
19:12 < fenn> what happens if you just let your kid stay at home and play video games or whatever all day? do they come kick down your door?
19:13 < fltrz> not exactly peak democracy, but I guess it might make these future citizens more participative in democracy
19:13 < fltrz> fenn, thats homeschooling, ask lsneff
19:13 < fenn> it's "unschooling" to distinguish from the micro-managed teacher-warden-mom
19:14 < fltrz> fenn, in belgium theres always the "central exam committee", so people who don't go to school, or disagree with the schools exam results can do the exam at the government
19:14 < nmz787_> L29Ah: but how can you *really* know how it feels without foreskin, unless you make the leap
19:14 < fltrz> some people skipped years that way
19:15 < lsneff> Here in the states, it depends on what state you're in. A lot of them don't really care probably because they have a lot of religious homeschoolers
19:16 < lsneff> Unschooling versus homeschooling really depends on how much of a hipster you are
19:16 < nmz787_> I know a few homeschoolers, actually probably the closest family of friends we have
19:16 < fenn> i'm actually arguing for a more pro-social cooperative and explorative unschooling than each kid stays at home all day
19:16 < nmz787_> the state regulations are stupid easy
19:17  * nmz787_ heads to the garage FIB, possibly with child in tow
19:17 < lsneff> fenn: there are certainly movements towards that
19:17 < fltrz> nmz787_, thats not the claim usually, the claim is that due to exposure to air the skin of the *glans* keratinizes or collagenizes so its elastic properties change so the meisner corpuscules etc become *less* sensitive to stimulation, and this *purportedly* results in longer sex which is more pleasurable for the girl
19:17 < lsneff> Often, homeschooling communities are tied to religious sects
19:18 < fltrz> nmz787_, a pretty roundabout way of avoiding to learn self control and prolong your pleasure...
19:19 < fenn> there's a lot of game theory and human interaction you miss out on if you are only ever exposed to your parents and siblings
19:19 < fltrz> nmz787_, the decrease in sensitivity has been after circumcision has been measured btw
19:19 < fltrz> fenn, yes I agree, school is also social interaction
19:19 < fenn> from what i've read, sudbury schools actually maximize student-student interactions, and they often go into politics because they're more competent than the average public schooler
19:20 < lsneff> fenn: one of my friends did "cyberschooling" for all of k-12, it wouldn't have been inaccurate to say he was socially stunted
19:25 < fenn> 'OFSTED (The "OFfice for STandards in EDucation") had placed Summerhill on a secret list of 61 independent schools marked as TBW (To Be Watched)'
19:25 < fenn> somehow the brits manage to make everything so ominous sounding
19:26 < lsneff> To be watched... in what way?
19:26 < fenn> ominously
19:27 < lsneff> I see
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19:30 < fltrz> "v<nmz787_> the whole sex is  better thing mostly was intriguing and a bit saddening, mostly when I was in the height of puberty" do I understand correctly yoou felt some amount of insecurity during the height of puberty because it was said that sex was better for / with circumcised men?
19:32 < lsneff> I have also heard the same thing.
19:33 < fltrz> its frequently repeated indeed
19:36 < fltrz> its not the origin of circumcision, so there is earlier motivation since antiquity (slavery), but apart from certain subcultures circumcision was going the way of the dodo... until foreskins were used as skin grafts, they could grow very large areas of skin from a single foreskin (early 20th century). this was used to dress burn victims etc. So the big profit motive boom started with skin grafts and exploded with WW2. For example only a small
19:36 < fltrz> minority of americans were circumcised before WW2.
19:37 < fltrz> and then it branched out to medicine in general
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19:38 < fltrz> the profit motive revived the long list of sometimes self-contradicting cover arguments in favor of circumcision, among which supposedly better sex. There is no scientific evidence for this
19:39 < lsneff> Oh, that's interesting. I somehow always thought it was purely tradition.
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19:40 < fltrz> nmz787_, if you look at movies some 20-30 years after WW2, you can find instances of snark of an older character towards younger ones, about them being typica circumcised youngsters or whatever
19:41 < fltrz> an example is Dirty Harry
19:41 < fltrz> its just a short quip somewhere in the movie, that today betrays that once upon a time the older generations were in general not circumcised
19:42 < L29Ah> WW2 major combatants: Germany, USSR, Japan, have low circumcision rate
19:42 < L29Ah> WW2 noncombatant, USA, has a high circumcision rate
19:42 < L29Ah> blames it on WW2
19:43 < fltrz> lsneff, the small tradition minority, were still doing it as an over reaction from the times of slavery, when slave owners preferred their slaves infibulated, so that when they weren't home they wouldn't feel insecure about the wife possibly humping the slave, or to avoid such gossip even if an owner did not feel so insecure
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19:44 < fltrz> L29Ah, Japan and south korea today have high circumcision rates, since WW2 as you state
19:44 < fltrz> in korea it cleanly follows the north south border
19:44 < fltrz> for japan since WW2, for korea later of course
19:44 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision tells it's nearly 0% in Japan
19:46 < lsneff> Most american traditions come down to slavery, it seems like
19:47 < fltrz> L29Ah, thats high too me, compared to before WW2 when it was essentially not done
19:57 < fltrz> lsneff, its not specifically american traditions, its from colonialism and slavery. The americas were originally european colonies, with triangle trade with slaves from africa.
19:58 < fltrz> the perpetrators project / pseudojustify their regime / behavior by projecting it on "our common tradition"
19:59 < fltrz> or religion, or anything unverifiable in general
19:59 < fltrz> how do you verify a tradition is actually traditional?
20:07 < fltrz> is it my brain oor is there a rare long run of vertical whitespace here? https://0x0.sthttps://0x0.st/-z6I.png
20:07 < fltrz> ffs double paste https://0x0.st/-z6I.png
20:10 < lsneff> I see it
20:10 < lsneff> A couple of runs
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22:42 < nmz787_> fenn: which looks the best https://imgur.com/a/IwQjD4C
22:57 < fltrz> nmz787_, dont share a picture of the screen, but a screenshot lol
22:58 < fenn> it's two screens
22:58 < fltrz> also why are people still using imgur, its annoying because of the javascript, check out $curl -F'file=@some.png' https://0x0.st
22:58 < fenn> is the right side a touchscreen?
22:59 < fltrz> I thought nmz787_ was consulting opinion on which of the repeated patterns on the left screen looked better
22:59 < fenn> he's designing the UI or something like that
23:00 < fltrz> ah
23:00 < fltrz> so compared to some earlier picture then
23:01 < fenn> which i wasn't able to see because imgur broke stuff
23:02 < fenn> nmz787_: i guess i like the one on the right, but please for the love of god don't use 100% red or 100% green
23:03 < fenn> i like that it has words that actually seem to mean something
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 15 00:00:15 2021