--- Log opened Fri Jan 15 00:00:15 2021 00:08 < fltrz> regarding circumcision in Japan its really weird because of total discrepancy between sources https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1zy17y/embarrassing_question_about_circumcision_in_japan/ 00:10 < fltrz> I presume that incidence and rates are being confused, such that current rate of circumcision might be low, so the if only looking at newborns it may have dropped significantly recently 00:10 < fltrz> (because they came to their senses) 00:28 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:30 < fltrz> ah ok this explains why: 00:30 < fltrz> The cultural issues involved make it pretty much impossible to estimate the true incidence of circumcision in Japan. Infant circumcision is rare, and a figure of 3% for adults is frequently quoted. However there are many clinics advertising 'phimosis surgery' and it is hard to see how they would stay in business on such a low rate. It must be said, too, that many of these are cowboy operations, as revealed in this article from Japan Today 00:30 < fltrz> links to www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/foreskin-clip-joints-take-unwary-males-for-a-ride 01:37 < nmz787_> fenn: actually that's the existing GUI, and the multiple small images on the left is the "eye doctor" process of "is this one better, or this one?" 01:39 < nmz787_> fltrz: because it strips my EXIF data and, I don't know what else exists that is better for this sort of thing 01:39 < nmz787_> google photos also will generate a link, but I think jrayhawk has said it's annoying to use on non-chrome/non-firefox (or maybe just no javascript)... but it leaves the EXIF data intact 01:40 < nmz787_> fenn: no neither screen is a touchscreen 01:41 < nmz787_> fltrz: yes I was asking which of the repeating images looked better, but mostly as a joke since fenn earlier said it was stupid to not have the computer do it 01:49 < fltrz> its an electron microscope image right? 01:50 < fltrz> a computer could certainly do it, but a human might be able to notice problems the simpler algorithms might not, slanted / spherical focus surfaces 01:51 < fltrz> nmz787_, why is the exif data on some image host so desirable? 02:21 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:22 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:48 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:02 -!- srk [~sorki@gateway/tor-sasl/sorki] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:08 -!- elkalamar [~elkalamar@unaffiliated/elkalamar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:43 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:49 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:08 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14 -!- elkalamar_ [~elkalamar@unaffiliated/elkalamar] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:17 -!- elkalamar [~elkalamar@unaffiliated/elkalamar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:26 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:16 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:21 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180112.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:27 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:05 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thievizvxwquhoox] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:18 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@31.14.40.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:02 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@31.14.40.19] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:54 < docl> https://recruiting.paylocity.com/Recruiting/Jobs/Details/425407 07:55 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/s_r_constantin/status/1350099469463908352 07:55 < saxo> My employer, Nanotronics, is hiring a software engineering manager. https://recruiting.paylocity.com/Recruiting/Jobs/Details/425407 / 🧵on why you should apply -> (@s_r_constantin) 07:56 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:9cba:7e8b:465d:ca00] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:01 < lsneff> That's pretty cool 08:02 < lsneff> docl: you'll apply? 08:04 < docl> I'm considering it... Just got flipped to full time at my current job though 08:05 < docl> so it feels a little early to be leaving it. but being surrounded with smart people who know more than I do about robotics, optics, etc. and actually solving those kinds of problems sounds really appealing 08:16 < lsneff> Doesn't hurt to try 08:17 < lsneff> I'm really looking forward to when people will hire me for actual jobs, not just internships 08:36 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-94-112-205-34.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:40 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:55 < docl> are you currently working an internship? 08:56 < lsneff> Not at the moment 08:57 < lsneff> I'm looking for one for this summer 08:57 < docl> paid internships are a thing in tech, seems unpaid is common in other fields 08:59 < lsneff> I'm under the impression that unpaid internships are illegal in the US 09:00 < docl> apparently not... as a resume builder an internship gives you value, so it's allowed, although some states maybe have banned it 09:00 < docl> https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/15161-are-unpaid-internships-legal.html 09:01 < docl> also volunteer work is allowed pretty much everywhere I think 09:02 < lsneff> Honestly, I'd take an unpaid internship if it got me moving towards my career goals 09:02 < docl> it kind of sucks that the best career move early on can be not asking for compensation, because that means kids with rich enough parents / supporters have the advantage in those fields 09:08 < lsneff> It is really unfortunate 09:37 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:41 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:41 < juri_> lsneff: I am looking for high level haskellers OR medium level halkellers who do medium level Ops OR android developers with kotlin experience. 09:44 < srk> heh, I'm fighting with kotlin app / gradle and nix a bit atm 09:55 < lsneff> juri_: I really appreciate it, but I'm unfortunately none of those. My main language is rust, and I have a bunch of low-level experience 09:59 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:02 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:06 < kanzure> veritas genetics: "We are writing to notify you that we will be issuing you a refund for the order you previously placed with us." .... i placed that order in 2018. 10:06 < kanzure> "In response to the COVID pandemic, we have turned our efforts to COVID testing, where our capabilities could be put to best use for the public good. We had expected to be able to get back to sequencing genomes much sooner than has turned out to be possible. With the pandemic not slowing down, we must continue to serve our communities with rapid COVID PCR testing." 10:06 < L29Ah> juri_: do u pay? (: 10:16 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:31 -!- preview [~quassel@2407:7000:8423:b00::4] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:35 < apotheon> kanzure: . . . so they're blaming a situation they probably weren't even aware would exist until early 2020 for failing to produce results from an order in 2018? 10:35 < apotheon> kanzure: That's pretty bad. 10:36 < apotheon> 17:02 < lsneff> Honestly, I'd take an unpaid internship if it got me moving towards my career goals 10:37 < L29Ah> tfw no career goals 10:37 < L29Ah> how do i get career goals? 10:37 < apotheon> Where does one even find internships like that? As far as I'm aware, the only place to get them is from placement assistance people at a school. 10:38 < apotheon> . . . which already means you have a financial advantage at this point, because of how postsecondary schooling works these days. 10:38 < apotheon> L29Ah: Start by thinking about what you want. 10:38 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:38 < L29Ah> i wanna survive! 10:38 < apotheon> L29Ah: Figure out the things it'd take to get there. 10:39 < apotheon> Work your way backward from there. 10:39 < L29Ah> ok this one is hard 10:39 < apotheon> There isn't really a general-purpose answer more specific than that, as far as I'm aware. 10:41 * L29Ah considers starting a career at a life extension wiki administration 10:43 < lsneff> my overarching goal is also to survive 10:45 < lsneff> But before that, I wanna either work in the space industry or in protein engineering/molecular nanotechnology 10:52 < lsneff> Unfortunately, I have no idea to get to either from here. 11:05 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11 < apotheon> L29Ah: What is a "life extension wiki administration"? 11:11 < apotheon> lsneff: I don't know how to get into those fields, either. 11:12 < apotheon> . . . but that's largely because those aren't the fields I want to pursue. 11:12 < L29Ah> make a wiki about life extension, fill and curate it so it would be a useful guide/reference for you and persons who also want to survive 11:13 < apotheon> lsneff: Look at the hiring requirements for the kinds of jobs you'd want in those fields (based on your technical interests) and start figuring out how to meet those requirements. 11:13 < apotheon> L29Ah: Ah, brilliant! You don't even need school or job experience for that. You can just build it yourself! 11:14 < apotheon> L29Ah: I recommend creating a page, or setting up an issue tracker, just for the sake of offering people a way to share relevant links you can go through for information to add to the wiki. 11:14 < L29Ah> well, the first thing would be looking really hard for similar projects that might have been already started 11:14 < apotheon> L29Ah: The easiest way I know to set up a wiki and issue tracker is to get a cheapo shared hosting service and host a Fossil repository there. It comes with wiki and issue tracker. 11:14 < L29Ah> and checking if wikipedia could be abused for that, in part or in whole 11:15 < L29Ah> the technical part is easy 11:15 < apotheon> Wikipedia is not well-suited for that at all, largely because of "community" standards for wiki curation. 11:15 < L29Ah> the social and informational are not 11:15 < apotheon> L29Ah: Yes, the social part is the hardest. In general, my experience with community-building is . . . 11:15 < apotheon> 1. You do all the work yourself. 11:15 < apotheon> 2. You devote all your fucking time to it. 11:16 < apotheon> 3. You hope other people want to get involved. After a few years, you get one or two. 11:16 < apotheon> 4. You keep laser focus on ensuring you keep up site activity even if it's 99.99% you. 11:16 < apotheon> 5. Gradually, you might actually get an *active* community. 11:17 < apotheon> 6. Five to ten years of this pass. 11:17 < apotheon> 7. . . . 11:17 < apotheon> 8. Profit! 11:17 < apotheon> (or give up) 11:17 < apotheon> Make sure you have a Patreon account or something like that. 11:17 * L29Ah ponders over the genesis of ##hplusroadmap name 11:17 < apotheon> There's an hplusroadmap website. 11:18 < apotheon> I think that's the source of the ##hplusroadmap name. 11:20 < apotheon> Actually, it's a wiki. 11:20 < apotheon> . . . so it seems like your idea is already there. 11:21 < lsneff> Community building is very difficult. 11:21 < apotheon> indeed 11:21 < apotheon> I've managed to build a community around a nonprofit association, but it's not a functionally active community -- only socially active. 11:21 < lsneff> I tried to build a community around an operating system I was building back in high school. 11:22 < apotheon> All the work, with rare drive-by exceptions, is mine. 11:22 < apotheon> There was one person who contributed a lot of work for a period of months, resulting in a whole new hosting infrastructure, but then that person basically dropped off the internet. 11:23 < apotheon> That infrastructure rotted over time, and I eventually had to abandon it, because I didn't have time to maintain the infrastructure *and* everything else. It was great, except for relatively high overhead for part-time management by a single person. 11:24 < apotheon> . . . so now there's a technically less good infrastructure, which will give me more time (and money!) to spend on other stuff (like a much-needed rewrite of the website application itself). 11:25 < apotheon> This is what you're in for if you try community-building. You have to *really believe* in what you're doing to stick to it -- or you have to be running a scam and be good at getting people to give you money (even if you don't think it's a scam yourself). 11:28 < fenn> L29Ah: i support you in your goal of becoming an expert at life extension wiki administration 11:28 < apotheon> me too 11:28 < lsneff> As do i 11:29 < apotheon> L29Ah: Maybe you can work your way into whatever inner circle has ultimate control over hplusroadmap. 11:29 < fenn> whoever that might be... 11:29 < apotheon> Start by contributing updates as pull requests or whatever they use. 11:29 < apotheon> fenn: Is it you? 11:30 < apotheon> (I don't even know.) 11:30 < fenn> this seems like a question i should be wary about answering 11:30 < apotheon> maybe so 11:30 < apotheon> not to me, though 11:30 < fenn> apotheon: is it you? 11:30 < apotheon> I'm unlikely to be any annoyance to the wikimasters just by knowing it's them. 11:30 < apotheon> fenn: nope 11:30 < fenn> apotheon: why not? 11:31 < apotheon> Why is it not me? Uh . . . because my focus on community building is already elsewhere. 11:31 < fenn> oh. well, okay. 11:31 < apotheon> It's in an area that is theoretically helpful for efforts like hplusroadmap, though. 11:32 < apotheon> (kinda like how physics research ultimately supports engineering) 11:32 < fenn> as long as it's not pony porn 11:32 < apotheon> (but more like how open physics journals ultimately support engineering, I guess) 11:32 < apotheon> Nope, no pony porn. 11:33 < fenn> L29Ah: there seems to be a crusade against transhumanism lately on wikipedia, but i'm too defeated to actually do anything about it 11:33 < apotheon> Wikipedia's being overrun with people who basically think anything that isn't in mainstream news shouldn't be allowed on Wikipedia. 11:34 < fenn> well okay, but like, don't delete a scientist's page for stupid reasons 11:35 < lsneff> Well, eventually the mainstream will become transhumanism. 11:35 < lsneff> And few will realize 11:35 < fenn> nothing is guaranteed 11:36 < fenn> elon musk with 40 million twitter followers is encouraging though 11:36 < apotheon> lsneff: not if gatekeepers (like the Wikipedia editor community) stand in the way of people finding out it's even possible to get the upgrades people would otherwise get 11:37 < apotheon> This is only a guess, but my impression is that the Wikipedia editor community is probably low-key anti-Elon. 11:37 < fenn> totally 11:37 < apotheon> I stopped paying attention to the details of the Wikipedia community much, so I'm not sure about current trends there. 11:38 < fenn> i just look at userpages of people who make big edits 11:38 < fenn> and read deletion proposal arguments 11:38 < apotheon> I don't care to spend that much time on it. 11:38 < apotheon> I just don't have the time or energy to bother these days. 11:39 < fenn> same 11:39 < apotheon> I occasionally edit an error or confusing phrasing, if I happen to be looking at something. 11:39 < apotheon> That's about it. 11:39 < lsneff> The mainstream is anti-elon atm 11:39 < apotheon> The visible mainstream seems that way, at least. 11:39 < fenn> "the mainstream" depends on which filter bubble you happen to be in 11:39 < apotheon> ddg 11:40 < fenn> eh? speak up 11:40 * fenn puts in his listening cone 11:41 < fenn> duck duck go? 11:42 < fenn> "L29Ah: Figure out the things it'd take to get there." is the origin of the ##hplusroadmap name 11:45 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:47 < lsneff> Who came up with it originally? 11:47 < lsneff> And how did the original group form? 11:47 < juri_> .. i don't think it matters too much, to me. :) 11:48 < fenn> kanzure came into #linuxcnc asking "what is the standard ontology for machine tools" 11:49 < fenn> and we got to talking about ... stuff 11:49 < fenn> at least that's the first thing i remember 11:49 < fenn> and somehow genehacker, a mechanical engineering student at UT austin got involved 11:51 < fenn> at the time i was trying to construct a sort of tech tree for bootstrapping a self replicating technological system 11:52 < apotheon> Grey goo? 11:52 < fenn> i had heard about nanotechnology but considered it too inaccessible, and was working on octahedral hexapod machine tools. this was before reprap was a thing 11:52 < apotheon> ah 11:53 < apotheon> RepRap still isn't fully self-replicating, last I checked. 11:53 < L29Ah> so over 15 years ago? 11:53 < lsneff> This was before 2005? 11:53 < fenn> the official project never really had a strategy 11:54 < fenn> no i think it was like 2007 11:54 < fenn> yeah reprap was BS. they just shrugged and were like "evolution!" "things will magically happen!" 11:55 < lsneff> Did that turn into skdb? 11:55 < fenn> yes 11:55 < juri_> fenn: um. things are still happening. i'm working on 5axis support, atm. 11:55 < lsneff> It's a shame skdb didn't work out. 11:56 < fenn> yes, and reprap the project is still completely clueless 11:56 < juri_> any project is clueless. people have clues, but the bigger an org... 11:57 < fenn> lsneff i'm still thinking about it 11:57 < lsneff> So, is the self-replication thing done until nanotechnology actually happens? 11:57 < lsneff> Ah 11:58 < fenn> i don't think we're going to somehow come up with a self replicating nanotech system, where design is so much harder to think about, if we can't even come up with a macroscopic self replicating system 11:58 < fenn> i mean, just recently someone came up with a self replicating cellular automaton, and that's a mathematical construct! 11:59 < fenn> .wik nobili-pesavento replicator 11:59 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobili-pesavento_replicator gave 404 | Searched en for 'nobili-pesavento replicator' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found' 11:59 < fenn> huh 11:59 < fenn> well anyway it's fun to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nobili_Pesavento_2reps.png 11:59 < apotheon> I'm off for a walk. 11:59 < apotheon> ta 12:00 < lsneff> Isn't the original neumann universal constructor self-replicating? 12:01 < lsneff> Ah, it seems not 12:02 < lsneff> fenn: do you have plans? 12:03 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:03 < fenn> i have a plan, and i think about it almost every day, but i've decided not to talk about it because i artificially feel like i have accomplished something if i talk about plans 12:04 < fenn> also people pester me and try to "help" and it ends up being more stress than i can handle 12:05 < fenn> i will share once it is worth sharing 12:05 < Llamamoe> fenn: I 12:05 < Llamamoe> I 12:05 < Llamamoe> fuckin 12:05 < Llamamoe> g k 12:05 < Llamamoe> eyboard 12:05 < Llamamoe> sry 12:05 < fenn> also there is a small matter of anonymity which i haven't quite figured out yet 12:06 < fenn> like, am i going to get crucified because of some thing that people latched onto that has nothing to do with the main concept? 12:06 < lsneff> That's understandable, and I wish you luck 12:08 < fenn> supposedly von neumann never implemented his cellular automata based replicator. so what did he actually do? 12:08 < fenn> just show how you can read from a tape and use it to construct stuff? 12:10 < fenn> "This insight is all the more remarkable because it preceded the discovery of the structure of the DNA molecule" 12:12 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14 < lsneff> > In 2004, D. Mange et al. reported an implementation of a self-replicator that is consistent with the designs of von Neumann. 12:23 < fenn> $ sdate 12:23 < fenn> Fri Sep 9999 12:22:50 12:23 < fenn> eternal september now approaching 10,000 days 12:43 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 12:44 -!- darsie [~kvirc@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:51 < apotheon> fenn: Do us all a favor, please and release whatever you do under the terms of a copyfree license such as the COIL. 12:51 < apotheon> s/please/please,/ 12:52 < fenn> never heard of it 12:52 < apotheon> Otherwise, there'll be uses of it that people can't actually build due to licensing issues, unless they only release it via darknet. 12:52 < apotheon> BSD+Patent is good, too 12:52 < apotheon> copyfree.org/standard/licenses for a list of worthy licenses 12:53 < apotheon> I just really loathe finding the perfect library for something (for instance) and realizing its license is incompatible with license terms of other code in the project. 12:53 < apotheon> "Okay, so I either have to cleanroom reinvent this shit or find an alternative. Thanks." 12:54 < fenn> i am thinking AGPL because i am a bastard 12:54 < apotheon> I see. You want to punish other people working on open projects. Cool. 12:54 < fenn> no, i want people to contribute their improvements back to the public 12:54 < apotheon> That's not often how that works. 12:55 < apotheon> What often happens is that things don't get used because of mutually incompatible licenses. 12:55 < lsneff> Please don't use a gpl derived license. It's so complicated to use gpl projects 12:55 < apotheon> no kidding 12:55 < fenn> why some license i've never heard of instead of public domain? 12:56 < fenn> oh, it's literally your own license 12:56 < fenn> jeez 12:56 < fenn> DISCLOSURE STATEMENT NEEDED 12:56 < apotheon> fenn: There are public domain dedications in that list, too -- but I prefer a license that roughly replicates the conditions of the public domain because public domain dedications aren't legally binding in some jurisdictions (e.g. France and Germany). 12:57 < apotheon> Even things with fallbacks like CC0 may run into issues thanks to utterly benighted jurisdictions like Norway that officially assigns stewardship of public domain works to rights-management agencies that, in turn, charge fees for use of the (formerly) public domain work there. 12:57 < fenn> CC0 doesn't have a clause to deal with norway? 12:58 < apotheon> fenn: If you, like Wikipedia, object to using any information or tool provided by a person involved in creating it, use the BSD+Patent license instead, then, if you want patent grants in the license. 12:58 < apotheon> No, CC0 doesn't have a clause to deal with Norway. 12:58 < L29Ah> just screw the laws 12:58 < apotheon> In Norway, CC0's public domain dedication works, but then the work in question might end up being handled by one of those rights-managements agencies. 12:58 < L29Ah> and solve the resulting problems on a case-by-case basis 12:58 < fenn> apotheon please engage in good faith argument 12:59 < fenn> of course i don't object to someone using software i am publishing under an open license 12:59 < apotheon> I don't see how I'm not. 12:59 < apotheon> Where did I say you object to someone using software you are publishing under an open license? 12:59 < fenn> i object to someone running a server with a bunch of improvements, and capturing people there because the source is not available 12:59 < L29Ah> like, if you're harrassed by norway bullshit agency, you can always ask the author to license you the work on whatever terms 12:59 < apotheon> I didn't say anything about your *objections*. 12:59 < fenn> apotheon> fenn: If you, like Wikipedia, object to using 12:59 < L29Ah> instead of limiting yourself to a list of kosher licences 13:00 < apotheon> I was talking about the license when I said that, not the work covered by the license. 13:00 < L29Ah> personally i like WTFPL because of its healthy vibe 13:00 < fenn> just use public domain 13:00 < apotheon> L29Ah: My experience with asking people to offer something under other terms is that people get stupid in response, and I don't want torches and pitchforks at my door again. 13:00 < fenn> WTFPL is almost as bad as shrugging and going "yeah whatever dude" 13:00 < fenn> fucking artists 13:00 < L29Ah> still better than public domain 13:01 < apotheon> fenn: "just use public domain" leads back to "Norway and Germany and France" 13:01 -!- Llamamoe [~Llamagedd@178235180112.dynamic-4-waw-k-4-0-0.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01 < fenn> well too fucking bad for norway 13:01 < fenn> maybe that's the norwegians' problem 13:01 < apotheon> . . . but I'd prefer PD over AGPL. 13:02 < L29Ah> AGPL is great if you want total open source but isn't too much obsessed with it (i.e. don't pick SSPL, a truly viral open source licence) 13:02 < apotheon> It's weird to me that people get *very* intent about wanting to make sure things are open, but don't care if millions of people don't get to treat it that way because of how they release it. 13:02 < apotheon> (e.g. populations of Norway, Germany, and France) 13:02 < apotheon> (also other places, but those off the top of my head) 13:02 < fenn> if you paper over the problem it will never get fixed 13:03 < fenn> i'm also considering explicitly forbidding EU citizens from accessing the server, because of the pain in the ass article 13 and GDPR 13:03 < L29Ah> 00:00:34] L29Ah: My experience with asking people to offer something under other terms is that people get stupid in response, and I don't want torches and pitchforks at my door again. 13:03 < L29Ah> did you tell them about your problems with the bullshit agency first, or you've tried to solve problems before there were any? 13:04 < apotheon> If you choose a license that approximates the public domain as much as reasonably possible, you mostly fix the problem for the work in question, and if enough works end up that way nobody will care about keeping copyright law as this broken pile of crap weighing us all down. 13:04 < apotheon> L29Ah: yes 13:04 < L29Ah> 23:52:51] copyfree.org/standard/licenses for a list of worthy licenses 13:04 < L29Ah> WTFPL is included, yay 13:05 < apotheon> WTFPL is one of the less legally rigorous (and probably less legally effective) entries on the list, but yeah, it's there. 13:05 < L29Ah> so, apotheon, what was your problem with the bullshit agency back then? 13:06 < fenn> apotheon: what were you trying to say about wikipedia then? becuase i didn't get it 13:06 < apotheon> wanting to use a library for a project that I knew would be used by someone I knew in Norway 13:06 < apotheon> not direct issue with the agency 13:06 < L29Ah> so no real problems then 13:06 < apotheon> fenn: Wikipedia refuses to, for instance, allow people who create some online resource to submit it as a supporting link for information in an article. 13:07 < lsneff> Actually, fenn, you were thinking of licensing it so that the code is AGPL licensed or the items are? 13:07 < apotheon> L29Ah: It's a real problem in that the person in question wouldn't have been able to use what I was writing if it depended on that library. 13:07 < apotheon> . . . or, at least, wouldn't have been able to use it without significant risk of getting a bunch of fucking fees. 13:07 < apotheon> I guess chilling effects of stupid laws don't count, though. Is that it? 13:08 < apotheon> A chilling effect isn't a "real problem", I guess. 13:08 < fenn> lsneff probably i will end up using a bunch of licenses for different parts. i will have to anyway, since i have to use existing things 13:08 < fenn> i haven't figured it out 13:08 < apotheon> fuck it 13:08 < apotheon> everybody just reimplement everything 13:08 < L29Ah> the chilling effects are solved by abolishing the laws, period 13:08 < L29Ah> http://bitcheese.net/world-domination-plans/laws 13:08 < apotheon> L29Ah: Good luck. Do it by Saturday, please. 13:09 < L29Ah> i'm okay with the laws 13:09 < L29Ah> as they don't touch me 13:09 < fenn> what's the problem with mixing licenses? 13:09 < apotheon> 21:04 < apotheon> If you choose a license that approximates the public domain as much as reasonably possible, you mostly fix the problem for the work in question, and if enough works end up that way nobody will care about keeping copyright law as this broken pile of crap weighing us all down. 13:09 < apotheon> (re: getting rid of shit laws) 13:09 < fenn> that doesn't get rid of the shit laws 13:09 < apotheon> fenn: many licenses are mutually incomaptible under the law 13:10 < fenn> and what's the consequence of that? 13:10 < apotheon> e.g. GPL and CDDL, or GPLv2 and Apache License v2, or any GPL and Apache License v1, or . . . 13:10 < apotheon> one consequence: legal threats over using ZFS with Linux 13:10 < juri_> AGPLv3? 13:11 < apotheon> I'm not sure whether AGPLv3 is compatible with AL2. I haven't looked closely enough. 13:11 < fenn> if GNU is corrupted we're probably doomed so i'm comfortable allowing them to upgrade the license retroactively 13:11 < fenn> like saying AGPLv3+ 13:12 < fenn> does anybody actually care about this stuff? 13:12 < fenn> i mean, surely google has some full time lawyer who computes licensing compatibility, but why should i have to do it 13:13 < apotheon> Ask the people at FSF and related orgs who have done fun shit like send legal threats to small Linux distributions. 13:13 < fenn> for not releasing their source code? 13:13 < apotheon> The original Kororaa Linux project got shut down because of legal threats over including freeware video drivers with the default install. 13:14 < fenn> from whom? 13:14 < apotheon> I don't recall for sure, but it was either FSF or SFLC. 13:15 < apotheon> There were also projects that got legal threats over including GPLed applications without modification because for source availability they referred to upstream. 13:16 < apotheon> Someone was looking for a way to justify the person's job by ensuring enough legal threats were sent out, probably, thus went looking for things that someone could (if squinting and tilting one's head sufficiently) be claimed to not qualify for the option of linking to upstream. 13:16 < apotheon> anyway 13:16 < apotheon> forget it 13:17 < apotheon> I didn't want to get into a debate today. 13:17 < apotheon> If you object to maximizing utility of your work for open projects, so be it. 13:17 < lsneff> Weren't you about to go on a walk? 13:17 < apotheon> I did go for a walk. 13:17 < fenn> apotheon i'm not blind 13:18 < fenn> i wish the world worked that way 13:18 < apotheon> 19:59 < apotheon> I'm off for a walk. [. . .] 20:51 < apotheon> 13:18 < apotheon> 42 minute gap 13:19 < lsneff> Oh, it's later than I thought 13:20 < fenn> apotheon there are too many licenses and you are part of the problem 13:20 < fenn> use your energy to fix one of the existing licenses 13:20 < apotheon> Unless someone's paying me to do so, though, I will not make projects that depend on other projects that would make my own work legall inaccessible to open source projects and the like -- because I don't want to stand in the way of progress. 13:20 < fenn> that's great 13:21 < apotheon> fenn: COIL *was* an effort to fix an existing license. It's basically a re-working of the concept behind AL2, but without license incompatibilities and stupid bureaucratic requirements. 13:21 < fenn> so go bitch at Apache 13:22 < apotheon> I found no other license that did the same thing until someone invented BSD+Patent, which was then the new functional duplicate. 13:22 < apotheon> fenn: ASF doesn't listen to me. 13:22 < superkuh> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.622533/full "Novel Non-invasive Strategy for Spinal Neuromodulation to Control Human Locomotion" 13:22 < apotheon> Also, ASF releasing AL3 wouldn't change the fact there would still be a lot of people using AL2 and AL1. It's just as much "license proliferation" when ASF releases a "fixed" license as when I do. 13:23 < apotheon> The difference is that ASF is almost certainly going to say "fuck you" to enough good changes to do away with all its major problems in one shot. 13:25 < apotheon> It's just as likely to make the next version *worse*. 13:25 < juri_> fenn: I care about this stuff. and i license AGPLV3+. 13:36 < fenn> by "this stuff" i meant license incompatibility 13:36 < fenn> i never really bought the argument that linking to a library makes it a "derivative work" anyway 13:39 < apotheon> tell it to the judge 13:39 < fenn> i will 13:41 < fenn> it's like saying you can't put files with two different licenses in the same zip file 13:42 < apotheon> If one of the licenses says you're not allowed to copy, distribute, et cetera, a file unless you abide by requirements in the license to apply its license to everything included in a zipfile with it . . . 13:42 < fenn> you're missing the point 13:43 < apotheon> . . . then zipping things up together in a way that violates the license means you've violated copyright law. 13:43 < fenn> here's a bunch of packages: A B C D. they have different licenses. it doesn't matter what the licenses say. I make a zip file from them, E. now what is the license that applies to E? 13:43 < fenn> right. whatever. that's just totally bogus 13:43 < apotheon> depends on the terms of the licenses themselves 13:45 < apotheon> license A says work A is not relicensable and that including it in a zipfile with other works requires them to be relicensed to license A; license E says the same thing, except related to work E and license E; they are not the same license, but function the same way; including them both in a zipfile together is copyright infringement 13:45 < apotheon> You can now be sued by the copyright holders of both work A and work E. 13:46 < apotheon> It's bogus, in principle. 13:46 < apotheon> It's fact, under copyright law in lots of places. 13:46 < fenn> no, none of the licenses say anything about "including in a zip file" 13:46 < apotheon> I said "if". 13:46 < apotheon> wait 13:46 < apotheon> I implied "if". 13:46 < apotheon> fuck 13:47 < apotheon> Okay, so . . . it was hypothetical. 13:47 < apotheon> The analogy is to library linking. Right? 13:47 < fenn> sure, it's all hypothetical 13:47 < fenn> library linking just includes tiny bits of code needed to reference other code in the library 13:47 < fenn> SUPPOSEDLY this means YOUR code is a derivative work of the library 13:48 < fenn> but how is it any different from putting two words on a page together? 13:48 < apotheon> In this case, the GPL's terms are, as explained by the lawyers working for orgs like the FSF, designed to prohibit building software that is dependent on a GPLed library from being distributed under terms other than the GPL for that library. 13:48 < fenn> i'm free to redistribute this file, but not on the same page as another file with the same license? that's just utterly moronic and misses the intent of copyright in the first place 13:48 < apotheon> It is determined to be "derivative" in that it is not a complete work without that library. 13:49 < apotheon> It's possible that, some day, someone will get that overturned by caselaw, but to do so that person will have to spend a shit-ton of time and money on a court case. 13:49 < apotheon> Most people, upon receiving a legal threat about GPL infringement, just capitulate and throw away their hard work. 13:50 < fenn> was that actually the intent of the GPL originally? or did they just make a goof and have to fix it, and then people complained about the fix 13:50 < apotheon> I can only guess at the original intent. I'm not a telepath, and I haven't ever been within smelling distance of RMS. 13:50 < apotheon> Presumably, there's some kind of proximity requirement for telepathy. 13:51 < fenn> inverse square law 13:51 < fenn> if your brain is inside their brain, there's perfect telepathy 13:52 < apotheon> The "putting two words on a page together" thing just brings up the fair use doctrine and case law about stuff like how many words it takes to make a work subject to copyright protections. 13:52 < apotheon> "i'm free to redistribute this file, but not on the same page as another file with the same license?" 13:52 < fenn> i just think legal people have a different understanding of what a "work" means 13:52 < apotheon> What is this about "the same license"? 13:53 < apotheon> Yes, lawyers have different definitions for most things. 13:53 < apotheon> The law is not necessarily representative of reality. 13:53 < fenn> files F and G have the following license: you are free to redistribute and modify this file, as long as it retains this license. you print F and G on a piece of paper. is this legal? 13:53 < apotheon> As a result, you can go to jail for lots of shit that isn't wrong at all. 13:54 < apotheon> fenn: If the license terms are linguistically *identical*, they're the same license, and you should be fine. 13:55 < apotheon> If they are not, they are likely to be considered distinct legal instruments, and thus conflict with each other, unless there's some specific phrasing that allows them to be inclusively multilicensed. 13:55 < fenn> file H has the license "this file has the license H. you are free to redistribute and modify this file, as long as it retains this license." can you print H on the page? 13:56 < apotheon> err 13:56 < fenn> it's just SO STUPID 13:56 < apotheon> I'm not clear on what you're trying to illustrate. Should I assume that's a copyleft license? 13:56 < fenn> it says exactly what it says 13:56 < fenn> nitpick away 13:56 < apotheon> (because, if those words are *literally* the words of the license, it's not copyleft) 13:56 < apotheon> Oh, that's not a copyleft license, then. 13:56 < apotheon> Sure, you can print it on the page. It's basically like a no-derivs version of the ISC license. 13:57 < apotheon> . . . except not with really good legal language to be sure it'll work out how you like. 13:57 < fenn> now what if i cut the paper into strips and rearrage the strips and paste them back together 13:57 < apotheon> I assumed you were just waving away the complexities of the GPL at first. 13:57 < fenn> have i committed a crime? 13:57 < fenn> will the police come take away my children? 13:58 < fenn> what if i cut the strips vertically? 13:58 < apotheon> Quite possibly, because you created a modified work of something that seems to only grant a right to distribute, not to modify. 13:58 < fenn> they all give the right to modify 13:58 < apotheon> Oh, shit, I missed "modify". 13:58 < apotheon> Okay, that's probably fine. 13:59 < apotheon> (assuming the licens is intact and unmodified) 13:59 < fenn> but it's a derivative work of all three files!!!1 13:59 < apotheon> Sorry about my oversight. I'm kinda distracted. 13:59 < fenn> this is what i was getting at with the zip file 13:59 < apotheon> I'm not sure. Your license language is so vague that it's difficult to guess how it would work out in a court of law in this case. 13:59 < fenn> i also think linking to a library is the same situation 13:59 < apotheon> it depends on the license 14:00 < fenn> some licenses come with "mere aggregation" language that clouds the argument 14:00 < apotheon> I think the intent *is* for the GPL to infect things that use GPLed code as a dependency. 14:00 < apotheon> The whole point of the GPL is twofold: A) infect as much other work as possible; B) ensure redistribution of source code. 14:01 < fenn> and here's where you can actually do something useful 14:01 < apotheon> Part of "as possible" is, of course, making it seem palatable to as many people as they can without undermining the infectious characteristics of the license. 14:01 < fenn> is there a license that requres a website or server operator to provide the source code of the server, but is not infectious like the GPL? 14:02 < apotheon> I don't know. 14:02 < apotheon> I haven't seen it, as far as I recall. 14:02 < apotheon> There are licenses I haven't seen, though. 14:02 < apotheon> I guess it'd be something like an ALGPL or LAGPL (depending on where the "limited" part should go). 14:03 < apotheon> Of course, there's some question about whether LGPL would even be judged in a court of law as being minimally hands-off as they claim. 14:04 < fenn> yes there are lots of legal questions. this is a multi-story edifice built on like 2 pieces of case law 14:04 < apotheon> A lot of this stuff hasn't been tested in court, mostly because people are afraid of having to defend themselves in court, so they just don't use these things. 14:04 < apotheon> Some aspects of the GPL have gone to court. 14:04 < fenn> there are literally billions of cellphones running linux 14:05 < apotheon> . . . but not nearly enough to really be *sure*. All we can do is guess based on extrapolation from judgements of somewhat similar cases. 14:05 < apotheon> Speaking of Linux, Linus once said that actually trying to sue people over the GPL in the Linux kernel only makes enemies, not friends, so it's a bad idea. 14:06 < apotheon> He's just relying on the chilling effects of the license, in other words. 14:06 < fenn> and yet, google contributes its code changes back to the mainline kernel 14:06 * fenn shivers 14:06 < apotheon> That's not even related to the license choice, very much. 14:07 < apotheon> (obviously, given the fact the Linux project is unlikely to sue) 14:07 < apotheon> It's related to a simple cost-benefit analysis on the engineering side. 14:07 < apotheon> If you can get your needed changes maintained by someone else (by upstream, specifically), you don't have to pay people to maintain that for you, and update it every time the upstream project breaks your code. 14:08 < apotheon> As I've pointed out before, failure to contribute upstream is its own punishment, except in cases where you're just going to fork it anyway. 14:08 < apotheon> (though I haven't pointed it out here, before) 14:09 < apotheon> Maintaining a patchset is second in annoying overhead only to forking the whole upstream project -- except in cases where it's worse than forking the upstream project. 14:11 < apotheon> AOL, Apple, Microsoft, and WebKitGtk have all quite effectively proven multiple times in the past that when you depend on some capabilities or structure of upstream, and upstream decides to make a change that breaks that dependency, upstream almost always *will not give a shit* if you can't keep up. 14:12 < apotheon> failure to contribute is its own punishment 14:38 -!- Solgriffin [sid282649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfvccdfhaxoulcqp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:38 -!- s0ph1a [sid246387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwcmcimpkvhquqdk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:38 -!- s0ph1a 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