--- Log opened Sun Jan 17 00:00:17 2021
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00:43 < srk> from yamlcrap import FennObject :D
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02:33  * L29Ah stuffs a piece of candy wrapping paper in kanzure's door slit
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05:11 < ottavio> Hi, just joined this channel. I wonder what nootropics, open hardware and trans-humanism have to do with each other. Genuine question, no trolling.
05:19 < L29Ah> nootropic may be a brain-improving piece of transhumanism, open hardware is necessary so that it can be trusted at least like your limbs are
05:22 < ottavio> L29Ah: open hardware as in open source hardware or am I off the track?
05:22 < L29Ah> yes
05:24 < ottavio> Interesting. There used to be a transhumanistic (?) political party in Italy. I have no idea what happened to it. Haven't lived there for 20+ years.
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07:12 < docl> nmz787: they're a bit more than that. they are also involved in smart factory design.
07:13 < docl> see sarah constantin's thread: https://twitter.com/s_r_constantin/status/1350099469463908352
07:22 < docl> CEO matthew putman talks about it 14 min in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83KMF1Z3l7w
07:29 < fltrz> kanzure, I'm not sure I understand the DIY security seals: I understand this is reasonably effective in preventing a broken seal to be reattached unnoticed, but it doesn't prevent the "attacker" of replacing with a seal constructed similarly if there is no easy method of verifying the seal was made by *you* and not the attacker. In medieval times they had methods to combat this: carve notches of information (cows, loans, ...) on and then split a
07:29 < fltrz> branch in 2 or 3 lengthwise, and have 2 parties and a deposit the third with the city or town hall. When a dispute arose the town hall could see who was using a forged twig because it would not line up in shape and kerf. Similar for indenture, where some random pattern was scribbled on paper/parchment and then cut in a zigzag pattern. I see how the glitter makes a unique pattern, but I would suspect the high directionality of specular reflection to
07:29 < fltrz> make this harder to use with a photograph from some position...
07:32 < fltrz> in dutch the twigs / sticks were called "kerfstok" (literally carve-stick), and today theres the expression of "has <...> on his kerfstok" meaning "has <...> on his conscience / criminal or juvenile record / ...
07:32 < srk> here https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5979 bunnie talks about something similar - 'Hand-draw a memorable object or word onto a piece of tissue paper that is about 2.5 cm (1 inch) square.'
07:32 < srk> epoxied afterwards
07:33 < fltrz> i.e. it is used when people reminds or informs others of what someone has done before
07:33 < fltrz> Im positive there was a wikipedia page on those split twigs and forgot the english word
07:35 < fltrz> its on tip of my tongue but I keep relapsing on ledger (I learned the english word in the context of bitcoin when it was recently released)
07:35 < fltrz> srk yeah thats also an interesting page
07:47 < fltrz> ah so the pattern to be cut is called a chirograph, and the sticks are called tally sticks or split tally
07:49 < fltrz> I'm not sure if those sticks were intended to be be multiwrite or single write, i.e. only when joining the sticks again could a notch be properly carved in alignment? or did they just take a new stick, make the desired number / placement of carves and then split; and just discard the old?
07:50 < fltrz> obviously the trusted third party could be bribed to collude
07:51 < fltrz> no wait, only in one direction, the honest party could prove his stick lacks the carve. but the colluding parties could take a new stick and pretend the honest party brought the wrong stick or accuse him of a forgery attempt
07:52 < fltrz> anyway a nested bureaucracy could detect corruption at a lower level for data that was propagated upwards
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09:13 < lsneff> .t https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/space/science/lattice-confinement-fusion/
09:13 < saxo> Sorry, t took too long
09:50 < fltrz> quick question, when research / development / production requires female primary human cells, what origin tissue / cell type is predominantly used?
09:51 < fltrz> i.e. whats the female equivalent of foreskin fibroblasts?
09:53 < kanzure> chord material? dunno
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10:24 < fltrz> is umbilical chord / placenta material considered banned under the fetal stem cell ban?
10:27 < fltrz> is this related to why AAP has gotten "symbolic" female circumcision "nick's" legal again?
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10:29 < fltrz> the overt (cover) reason is to avoid botched female circumcisions outside of the hospital systems, (one of the many cover justifications used to defend male circumcision: I say cover reason because the government could simply treat it as the abuse it is and punish + fine the parents, relocate the children with family)
10:30 < fltrz> it would also make sense since it wouldn't increase the number of involved parties aware of the conflicts of interest, as those would be urologists as well
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10:46 < fenn> ottavio: nootropics are simply one way to modify your body for increased performance. there's plenty of material elsewhere about bodybuilding, and it's not as interesting because there is no potential for recursion. i.e. the nootropics could theoretically make you smart enough to design a better nootropic, and so on
10:47 < fenn> enhanced intelligence is in greater demand among transhumanists than is enhanced strength
10:49 < fenn> ottavio: as for open hardware, while security is important, being able to do anything at all is more important. this is why i am interested in open hardware. if we are forced to purchase all instruments or tools from vendors used to selling to large institutions and businesses, they are impossibly expensive. it's better to make your own tools. this way they do exactly what you want, and are
10:49 < fenn> usually cheap enough to give away if you no longer need them
10:49 < fenn> with biological tools such as enzymes and plasmids, the cost can even be too low to measure
10:50 < fenn> vs $200 for a tiny bottle from NEB
10:57 < Deknos> this sounds sooo like shadowrun :D
11:07 < fenn> navalny goes back to moscow so they can finish the job -_-
11:14 < ottavio> fenn: they can finish the job wherever they want.
11:14 < ottavio> If they really really want.
11:15 < ottavio> BTW, would fasting, keto be considered bio hacking?
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11:15 < ottavio> or any kind of metabolism (self)manipulation?
11:16 < ottavio> including chronic calorie restriction?
11:16 < fenn> i'm not interested in rigidly defining what is and is not transhumanism
11:17 < ottavio> ok, but give me a rough idea.
11:17 < ottavio> Please.
11:17 < fenn> keto is more on the hobbyist end
11:18 < fenn> i know some people who practice calorie restriction that i'd consider transhumanist
11:18 < fenn> it seems like a pain in the ass though, and if we can stimulate the same effect without the inconvenience, that would be better right?
11:19 < fenn> i haven't really kept up with the whole sirtuin debacle
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11:24 < fenn> last i said was: i haven't really kept up with the whole sirtuin debacle
11:25 < ottavio_> Yeah sirtuins as bio hacking is a bit of an obsolete topic nowadays
11:31 < apotheon> Deknos: Why not something like Neuromancer, or Cyberpunk 2020, instead of Shadowrun?  Shadowrun has dragons, elves, and magic.
11:32 < fenn> deus ex
11:32 < apotheon> ottavio_: I'd say that stuff like fasting is transhumanist or non-transhumanist depending on your intentions.
11:32 < apotheon> deus ex magica
11:33 < apotheon> hmm
11:33 < apotheon> I just came up with a great name for a work of fiction.  Maybe I'll use it at some point.
11:33 < fenn> the video game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex_(video_game)
11:34 < apotheon> ottavio_: For instance, if your intention with calorie restriction is to look good in the proverbial Little Black Dress, it doesn't seem transhumanistic, but if the intention is to live an extra ten years so you maximize your potential to take advantage of high-yield life extension science in the future, that's pretty transhumanistic.
11:35 < apotheon> 19:18 < fenn> it seems like a pain in the ass though
11:35 < kanzure> arguing about these definitions doesn't seem helpful
11:36 < apotheon> fenn: Consider daily intermitten fasting as a surprisingly low-hassle means of improving life expectancy to a modest, but useful, degree.
11:36 < apotheon> s/intermitten/intermittent/
11:36 < apotheon> I'm not talking about mittens.
11:36 < fenn> i was about to say the same thing
11:37 < apotheon> What's the sirtuin debacle?
11:37 < fenn> it didn't pan out
11:37 < fenn> despite lots of hype
11:38 < fenn> now let's see if fenn can not OD on chocolate again today
11:38 < apotheon> Ah, I thought maybe the use of the term "debacle" might have implied some kind of specific scandal or something like that.
11:38 < kanzure> arashi ultraman dash
11:39 < fenn> i know what those words mean, but not what the phrase means
11:39 < kanzure> japanese game show about eating chocolate
11:39 < fenn> "involves contestants biting into clothes hangers, tables, door handles, and an array of random.."
11:40 < fenn> so a tv show for mice
11:41 < fenn> a conspiracy by the japanese dentist association
11:45 < Deknos> neuromancer would fit also, yes.
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18:38 < L29Ah> 16:24:12]<ottavio> Interesting. There used to be a transhumanistic (?) political party in Italy. I have no idea what happened to it. Haven't lived there for 20+ years.
18:38 < L29Ah> but transhumanism is not a political philosophy
18:38 < L29Ah> oh he left
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19:00 < lsneff> .t https://arxiv.org/abs/2101.05978
19:00 < saxo> [2101.05978] Experimental realization of Majorana hinge and corner modes in intrinsic organic topological superconductor without magnetic field at room temperature
19:01 < lsneff> L29Ah: there's also one in the states, I believe.
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21:57 < nmz787> docl: I'm still not quite convinced, the twitter mostly just mentions a stair climbing robot, which isn't terribly interesting re: nanotech... I didn't catch anything while listening at 14 mins into that vid
21:58 < nmz787> fltrz: I think that blog on security tags said to take a photo of it
21:59 < nmz787> fltrz: I actually have some holographic film that was just sent to me for nanoscopic analysis, which has a speckle pattern adjacent to a QR code
21:59 < nmz787> to basically enable the same thing
21:59 < lsneff> I'm thinking about dumping as many books I've read as I can find text files for and dumping them through wordnet to build a dictionary thing that matches my personal lexicon.
22:11 < lsneff> Actually, something that would be *really* interesting would be to think about whether that hypervector paper I talked about a few months ago could be applied to finding unique "addresses" for ideas extracted from text.
22:19 < nmz787> I'm not sure the last time I fully read a book
22:20 < nmz787> maybe 2014
22:26 < lsneff> Why?
22:27 < lsneff> I realized I've haven't been reading much recently, so I read a few novels today that I've been meaning to.
22:29 < fenn> not enough time
22:29 < fenn> unless you have a long commute there's no reason to waste half the day on a book
22:30 < lsneff> What other pressing matters do you have that you can't spend an hour or two every once in a while on a book?
22:30 < fenn> i can't spend an hour or two reading a book, that's why
22:31 < fenn> once i'm interested i pretty much have to finish it
22:32 < fenn> also it's hard to get good recommendations
22:33 < lsneff> read faster
22:33 < fenn> no
22:33 < fenn> that's 1) wasting mental energy pushing too hard, and 2) you don't really enjoy it
22:33 < lsneff> I've been working my way through classic scifi. There are some embarrassing gaps I need to fill there.
22:33 < fenn> meh
22:34 < fenn> you don't work your way through know-your-meme
22:34 < fenn> if you're having fun, that's good
22:35 < fenn> you shouldn't feel obligated to read 1984
22:35 < lsneff> Well, that's not because working through some subset of popular culture is a bad thing, just because memes are a mostly negative distillation of it.
22:35 < lsneff> I've read it
22:36 < fenn> for me, scifi is all about the ideas. you don't really need a 500 page book to convey the idea, in most cases. but it's nice to see the author's thinking peripheral to the idea
22:37 < fenn> high literature and poetry, i just don't get it
22:38 < fenn> and then there's tom clancy grocery store thrillers which is basically television
22:38 < lsneff> Yeah, I understand that perspective, but I grew up reading classics and my mother writes poetry, so I'm kind of the opposite.
22:39 < lsneff> Though I do love big ideas in scifi.
22:39 < lsneff> As you say, there's a lot of trash out there.
22:41 < fenn> in neal stephenson's snow crash, high society retreated to the hills and partially reverted to the old victorian ways, where everybody read the newspaper. this was to combat the trend of echo chambers and hyper-personalized news feeds that had fragmented society
22:41 < fenn> the entire point was that everybody read the same newspaper and thus were able to have intelligent conversations with each other about a shared context
22:41 < fenn> the poor nanotech-fed proles had no such luxury
22:42 < fenn> there are too many books
22:45 < lsneff> I'm not sure how that follows.
22:46 < fenn> in a world with 1 book, everybody who has read a book has read that 1 book
22:46 < fenn> in a world with 1000 books, everybody has read the top 5 books but for any other book it's rather unlikely you both will have read the book
22:47 < lsneff> In our world, read 1000 books and you'll have a shared context with someone who's read a completely different set of 1000 books
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22:47 < fenn> in our world, there are over 100 million books published
22:48 < lsneff> So few?
22:48 < fenn> you mean, more than you could ever read
22:49 < fenn> and it's not like we can appoint a high chancellor of literature excellency, because then it would become a political tool
22:50 < lsneff> Nor do we need to.
22:50 < fenn> just look at what happened with the hugo awards (sad puppies and related drama)
22:52 < fenn> the reason to have a high chancellor of literature is to reduce the set of books you need to consider, to have a reasonable chance of overlapping with someone else
22:52 < lsneff> Ah
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22:54 < lsneff> Yet, without a high chancellor of literature, we have probably read on the order of 10s of overlapping books.
22:57 < fenn> here's an incomplete list of books that i've read, back when i kept such lists: http://fennetic.net/irc/books.txt
22:58 < fenn> these are all the memorable ones; if it was non-memorable i didn't remember to write it
22:59 < fenn> there was a lot of 1970s Analog magazine that i'll probably never find again
23:02 < lsneff> What'd you think of accelerando?
23:04 < fenn> a hodgepodge of stuff stolen from the transhuman-tech mailing list
23:04 < fenn> it barely made sense as a novel
23:06 < lsneff> Yeah, I enjoyed it I think largely because it was just had lots of stuff, but it wasn't really good.
23:06 < lsneff> I talked to the author on Twitter after reading it and he mentioned something about pulling things out of his ass.
23:15 < fltrz> I find that fiction has a very low signal to noise ratio of concepts and ideas compared to scientific literature
23:16 < fltrz> hypervector paper = hyperdimensional computing paper?
23:18 < fenn> probably word2vec
23:18 < fltrz> I was wondering how the recent sensitivity conjecture might tie back to the ideas in the hyperdimensional computing paper
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23:18 < fltrz> I have this generalization for word2vec that I still didn't finish writing out
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23:20 < fltrz> but with the "new" laptop with 16GB RAM I might try some more experiments, and also I keep adding insights from lattice theory to that project
23:20 < lsneff> Not word2vec
23:20 < lsneff> Hyperdimentional computing
23:21 < lsneff> I suppose word2vec is an application of hyperdimensional computing.
23:22 < fltrz> well there was the word2bit or something paper
23:23 < fltrz> I don't really see much connection between word2vec and hyperdim comp though, except for the binary version of word2vec
23:23 < fltrz> geez it annoys me when I don't remember the name correctly
23:25 < fltrz> huh... theres actually a word2bits named project, but pretty sure that wasn't it
23:28 < nmz787> lsneff: I read too many scientific papers, it's trained me to skim, kind of hard to read literature
23:29 < fenn> pff amateur. i just skim the graphical abstract
23:29 < fenn> :P
23:30 < fenn> (but it would be really nice to have graphical abstracts for every paper)
23:36 < nmz787> well, when you're looking for recipes for how to do stuff, often that's not in the abstract
23:36 < fenn> and it's not in the paper either
23:36 < fenn> it's nowhere to be found
23:36 < fenn> somebody wrote about it once in 1964
23:37 < fenn> then you find six different "advanced" recipes that all reference the original 1964 paper but don't actually tell you how to do it
23:37 < fltrz> btw a great trick I started a while ago, and recently learned, is if you appreciate a paper (regardless of fully grok'ed or not), is to look for a rare phrase segment (related to the concepts / novel insight *you* had). When you recall the idea which is not seldom the main topic of the paper nor the title, then you can google the catch phrase.
23:37 < fltrz> *and recently started seeing results from
23:38 < fenn> what's "not seldom" mean?
23:39 < fenn> your novel insight is the topic of the paper?
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23:39 < nmz787> fltrz: hmm, I just have a habit of downloading the PDFs and then using grep later
23:39 < fenn> you can't grep pdfs
23:40 < nmz787> or organizing into folders (even though that kind of sucks because there's so much overlap between topics)
23:40 < nmz787> fenn: I do it anyway
23:40 < fltrz> For example a paper (making this up) "On the shifting population dynamics of crustaceans", and a specific section on methods explained concisely among other techniques a measurement or analysis technique that you wish you had been exposed to before, then the author doesn't consider it the main topic and certainly not the title, but as a reader that was a pure gold segment
23:40 < nmz787> you get some info out
23:42 < fenn> amazon had this "statistically improbable phrase" technique for matching similar books. is there something like this in active use for clustering scientific papers?
23:42 < nmz787> I guess it's just metadata
23:42 < nmz787> isn't there also something like that for world locations? instead of lat log?
23:42 < nmz787> lat long
23:42 < fltrz> so to recall the description of the technique, just find a good catch phrase with high uniquity from that segment that you find easy to associate with the idea. then googling will find that paper for you
23:43 < fenn> no thanks, i'll save the PDF locally
23:43 < fenn> do not rely on things staying on the internet
23:43 < nmz787> sometimes remembering the general sentiment works, but often leaves me sifting through unrelated and somewhat related papers... which can be pretty useful
23:43 < fltrz> unicity distance
23:44 < fltrz> nmz787, yes, certainly useful, but for that I prefer using semantic scholar etc
23:44 < fenn> i need a better local fulltext search. rekoll just churned forever and ever because i have some absurdly large pdf collections
23:44 < nmz787> huh, I just use google scholar
23:45 < fltrz> its just annoying when you type in "crustaceans population" in an attempt to find the analysis technique, and you just get loads of ecology papers that don't use the technique
23:45 < nmz787> there must be some C++ version of pdfminer to just cat stuff to grep
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23:46 < fltrz> weren't there multiple pdf2latex style projects?
23:47 < fltrz> its a bit heavy but you could store the jobs in a batch and let it run at night?
23:47 < fenn> oh yeah, i was using tracker-search for a while
23:47 < fenn> same problem though
23:48 < fltrz> also for now I do the low likelihood phrase selection myself, by guessing and then trying in search engines, but constructing a likelihood model is exactly what natural language models do
23:48 < fltrz> so it should be automate-able
23:51 < fenn> nmz787: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geohash#Geometrical_representation
23:51 < nmz787> well, semantic scholar seems to have just lost some points
23:51 < nmz787> unless I'm misunderstanding the point of it
23:51 < nmz787> I used a search including "silicone" and it gave me an article without "silicone" in it
23:52 < fenn> with quotes?
23:52 < fenn> if you want google to do anything reasonable it has to be in quotes
23:53 < nmz787> is semantic scholar run by google?
23:53 < fenn> i don't think so
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23:57 < fltrz> nmz787, yeah I specifically use it to find associated papers of a given paper, like references citation count etc
--- Log closed Mon Jan 18 00:00:18 2021