--- Log opened Sun Feb 07 00:00:38 2021
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00:20 < nmz787> some quantum shit!
00:46 < apotheon> It looked like a parody movie, but I haven't seen it.
00:47 < apotheon> Well . . . bedtime.  G'night.  (Hopefully I don't wake up dead.)
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--- Log opened Sun Feb 07 03:57:25 2021
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03:57 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | as investigated by the fbi weapons of mass destruction division | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | https://diyhpl.us/wiki | not quite sponsored by george church | banned by the MIT media lab
03:57 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Thu Oct 17 10:53:37 2019]
03:57 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
03:57 [ acertain       ] [ dustinm        ] [ lsneff     ] [ redlegion    ] 
03:57 [ AgenttiX_alt   ] [ EnabrinTain    ] [ Malvolio   ] [ rodarmor     ] 
03:57 [ andytoshi      ] [ ensign         ] [ MarkOtaris ] [ s0ph1a       ] 
03:57 [ apotheon       ] [ fltrz          ] [ mgxm       ] [ saurik       ] 
03:57 [ archels        ] [ gnusha         ] [ midnight   ] [ saxo         ] 
03:57 [ aztec          ] [ gwillen        ] [ mjr[m]     ] [ SDr          ] 
03:57 [ balrog         ] [ heath          ] [ mrdata     ] [ ShellcatZero ] 
03:57 [ beaky          ] [ helleshin      ] [ mrdata_    ] [ sivoais      ] 
03:57 [ berndj         ] [ HEx1           ] [ nanotube   ] [ sknebel      ] 
03:57 [ branon         ] [ HumanG33k      ] [ nickjohnson] [ Solgriffin   ] 
03:57 [ bsm117532      ] [ indiebio       ] [ nikivi[m]  ] [ spaceangel   ] 
03:57 [ cannedprimates_] [ jcorgan        ] [ nmz787     ] [ srk          ] 
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03:57 [ darsie         ] [ juri_          ] [ pasky      ] [ TMA          ] 
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03:57 [ dr_orlovsky    ] [ L29Ah          ] [ preview    ] [ wallet42____ ] 
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03:57 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 80 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 80 normal]
03:57 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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06:03 < fenn> .title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00260-3
06:03 < saxo> How gut microbes could drive brain disorders
06:04 < fenn> surprised we haven't reached peak VC-funded microbiome startups yet
06:04 < fenn> there's a lot less activity than i would have expected
06:06 < fenn> fasting should reduce the quantity of misfolded proteins through autophagy, potentially delaying the onset of parkinson's
06:13 < L29Ah> what's up with misfolded proteins-targeting antibodies?
06:14 < fenn> you mean why don't they take care of the problem?
06:14 < fenn> at least for parkinson's disease, my understanding is that the misfolded proteins themselves are part of a normal immune response
06:15 < fenn> s/parkinson/alzheimer/
06:15 < fenn> it's like some emergency leak patching compound to fill in the cracks that aren't supposed to be there
06:15 < fenn> in the blood-brain barrier
06:16 < fenn> or to smother bacteria when no immune cells are present (as the brain is an immune privileged zone)
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07:12 < fenn> http://aleph.se/papers/Spamming%20the%20universe.pdf "Eternity in six hours: intergalactic spreading of intelligent life and sharpening the Fermi paradox"
07:15 < kanzure> doesn't render for me
07:19 < L29Ah> worksforme in zathura
07:20 < L29Ah> the paper is full of scifi tho
07:25 < fenn> looks like typical LaTeX output
07:28 < kanzure> browser problems nevermind
07:29 < kanzure> is this the one where anders decides to go full mormon?
07:39 < lsneff> Anders in mormon?
07:39 < lsneff> *is
07:50 < lsneff> Oh, I get what you mean
08:00 < fenn> i think the gist of the paper is "it's really super duper easy to colonize the galaxy so why hasn't anybody done it yet"
08:22 < fenn> s/galaxy/universe/
08:31 < juri_> "because humans are lazy, and shit, and whiney."
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09:04 < apotheon> nmz787: I was obviously tired last night, because it didn't occur to me to actually open that URI in the browser to see the description.  I only opened it with mpv to watch the video.
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09:24 < apotheon> I haven't read every word of the "eternity" paper yet, but something that jumps out at me is that it looks like the technology discussion involves a lot of focus on expansion through means that aren't conducive to conveying whole, living humans, while the motivations discussed seem to focus on things that require sending whole, living humans.  Maybe I'm missing something.
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10:15 < fenn> sandberg tends to impute humanlike motives to hypothetical post-human entities
10:15 < fenn> it's an unavoidable bug in human cognition
10:17 < apotheon> agreed
10:17 < fenn> juri_: not relevant. the question was rather "why don't we detect signs of alien activity if 10^8 galaxies could have reached ours"
10:17 < fenn> just adding more orders of magnitude to the usual fermi paradox
10:19 < apotheon> I guess the Fermi paradox basically says "If we assume very narrow understandings of motivation and opportunity -- probably due to our own lack of imagination and high levels of cultural indoctrination -- we must wonder why there aren't predatory colonizers in our sub-galactic neighborhood."
10:20 < apotheon> This thing doesn't change that.
10:20 < apotheon> It just expands the possible source-locations for colonization efforts.
10:21 < apotheon> . . . then fails to effectively account for self-replicating probes conveying whole living beings around, on top of it.
10:21 < apotheon> (unless I skimmed that part, but it seems unlikely)
10:22 < apotheon> Maybe this paper is a case study in how scientists still need access to philosophers.
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10:32 < fenn> it would only take one civilization or subgroup (e.g. this channel) with the right motivations to cause signs to appear
10:33 < fenn> the author of that paper has far too much access to philosophers already
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10:34 < grimler32> Is Anyone from D1267Gt10 or technology advances places like that?
10:35 < fenn> never heard of it
10:36 < fenn> grimler32: since you appear to be a schizo spammer, i'm asking you politely to leave, in the interests of the channel
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10:40 < fenn> was the internet always this depressing?
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10:47 < apotheon> no
10:56 < docl> um. self replicating makes large scale colonization efforts more probable, in fact it's the essential ingredient.
10:57 < fenn> i didn't understand that objection, but it seemed lazy
10:58 < docl> nothing specifically humanlike about colonization. bacteria colonize everything. it's way more basic than anything specific to humans.
11:02 < fenn> in section 3.1 he briefly considers space ships full of biological humans, and then dismisses the concept as "unreasonable"
11:03 < fenn> i tend to agree. there's no legitimate need to drag along an entire living human, if you can instead create one from a few cells and then educate it with digital information
11:05 < docl> specific civs might limit themselves, but if life is common we should be seeing those who decided not to do that.
11:05 < fenn> 50 grams of DNA could store the brain scans from the entire population of britain
11:06 < docl> just like not every bacteria necessarily replicates itself. the ones that don't aren't the ones that are ultra successful at colonizing the world.
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13:29 < heath> https://www.inceptivemind.com/powerpaste-high-density-safe-easily-transportable-hydrogen-energy-fuel/17468/
13:31 < heath> https://www.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/zv/en/press-media/2021/february-2021/ifam-hydrogen-powered-drives-for-e-scooters.pdf
13:33 < heath> https://phys.org/news/2021-02-quantum-entire-radio-frequency-spectrum.html "New quantum receiver the first to detect entire radio frequency spectrum"
13:34 < superkuh> 4 MHz instantaneous bandwidth.
13:34 < superkuh> Very widely tunable, but it's not the entire spectrum at once.
13:35 < superkuh> And it's not an antenna, it's just a co-planar waveguide they put highly ionized plasma above and shoot lasers through to measure the intensity absorbed.
13:35 < superkuh> You still need the full size antenna for the frequency range you want to receive.
13:38 < thahxa> wait wideband antennas have existed for a pretty long time
13:38 < thahxa> for example the log-periodic
13:38 < superkuh> Eh... yeah? But nothing the passes the chu-wheeler-etc limit.
13:38 < superkuh> I'm just saying this receiver needs a normal antenna... and a receiver. It's really just a tuner.
13:50 < grimler32> are there any t1me travelers or Al1ens here who can help me?
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14:07 < lsneff> no
14:13 < kanzure> only espers
14:13 < kanzure> first off, i'm not interested in ordinary people
14:14 < fenn> you gotta make weird signs in chalk on the football field so they can see it from space and be confused
14:14 < fenn> then when they come down to investigate you stow away
14:20 < fenn> heath i love it. reminds me of the aluminum wire stuff that used to be "fringe"
14:20 < fenn> POWERPASTE!
14:20 < fenn> now if i could just get a fuel cell...
14:21 < fenn> a "factory" production of four tons per year is not very much though
14:22 < lsneff> we only have men who stare at goats here
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14:25 < apotheon> 19:03 < fenn> i tend to agree. there's no legitimate need to drag along an entire living human, if you can instead create one from a few cells and then educate it with digital information
14:25 < apotheon> This sidesteps my commentary about the *motivations* cited in the paper.
14:25 < fenn> please enlighten us
14:26 < apotheon> Many of the motivations cited in the paper require sending living human beings.
14:26 < apotheon> e.g. out-groups fleeing dominant in-groups
14:26 < fenn> no
14:26 < fenn> that's a failure of imagination on your part
14:26 < apotheon> How do you flee without, y'know, *going anywhere*?
14:27 < fenn> i don't even know where to start
14:27 < apotheon> If all you send is genetically descended receptacles for your ideology, you're practicing strategic seeding, not fleeing.
14:27 < fenn> you pack up your mind state in a compressed format, then put it on the spaceship
14:27 < apotheon> That's not you.  That's a digital clone.
14:27 < fenn> it's the same stupid philosophy problem as the transporter
14:28 < fenn> BFD
14:28 < apotheon> You're still there, where the probe launched.
14:28 < apotheon> You didn't flee.
14:28 < apotheon> You sat there and sent out a seed for some other thing.
14:29  * fenn pokes at the weathered horse bones sticking out of the dirt
14:29 < apotheon> Not understanding ontological concerns doesn't mean they don't exist.
14:29 < apotheon> If he didn't want to discuss literally fleeing, he should have provided a different motivational indicator.
14:29 < apotheon> they
14:30 < apotheon> two "he"s
14:30 < apotheon> sorry
14:30 < fenn> anders is a he
14:31 < fenn> apotheon you can't imagine "fleeing" by throwing your baby onto a lifeboat?
14:31 < fenn> except the baby is a copy of you with all your memories
14:31 < apotheon> fenn: That's not you fleeing.  That's the baby being sent away.
14:31 < fenn> this is a pointless argument
14:31 < fenn> go read more science fiction please
14:31 < apotheon> Why are you trying to dispute what words mean, if doing so is pointless?
14:34 < apotheon> I even provided an alternate (accurate) description of the act, which is accurate and strengthens the paper's argument: strategic ideological seeding.
14:36 < fenn> the goal is to have > 0 existing copies of yourself, not a zillion copies. it just so happens that having a zillion copies is a good way to have > 0 copies
14:36 < fenn> anders' point was that the entire civilization doesn't have to be ideologically aligned in order for it to happen
14:37 < apotheon> Strategic ideological seeding does not require high output; it's just more effective with high output, in that survival of the seed-goals in aggregate is statistically greater.
14:37 < fenn> group A persecutes group B. group B leaves
14:37 < apotheon> group B sends representatives elsewhere so group B's ideology survives
14:37 < apotheon> (corrected)
14:37 < fenn> whatever
14:38 < apotheon> group B prime remains in place
14:38 < fenn> that's your opinion
14:39 < fenn> if B is digital in the first place it's doubly whatever
14:39 < fenn> next you're going to tell me i'm committing copyright violation by reading words you wrote without explicit permission
14:41 < apotheon> Why would I do that?
14:42 < apotheon> Copyright is a bullshit policy of artificial scarcity that doesn't have the promised positive economic effects.
14:44 < apotheon> . . . but sure, if B prime is digital, it may not matter.
14:45 < fenn> aha your racist nature finally surfaces
14:45 < apotheon> more like "I don't know enough about the characteristics of digital B to make a judgement"
14:46 < apotheon> . . . unless you think favoring a human over an unregenerate nematode is racism.
14:46 < apotheon> . . . or a very electrically active rock.
14:46 < apotheon> . . . or a Rube Goldberg device.
14:47 < fenn> why did you create a group B prime? i don't see what it's supposed to represent
14:47 < apotheon> It's the source of the B-postprime colonies.
14:48 < apotheon> differentating B (the source) from B (the destinations in other galaxies)
14:48 < fenn> which one is B prime?
14:48 < apotheon> B (the source)
14:48 < apotheon> the source B, with you
14:49 < fenn> ok usually when you add a ' mark in math it's pronounced "prime" and means the derivative of ___
14:49 < apotheon> Presumably, it's a derivative of the B precursors on Earth.
14:50 < fenn> now i'm really confused
14:50 < apotheon> How did B prime get on a distant star in the same galaxy before deciding to seed the rest of the universe?
14:50 < fenn> groups A and B were supposed to be in a galaxy far far away
14:50 < apotheon> In the interstellar, same-galaxy example in the paper for "fleeing" a dominant group, the people "fleeing" by spamming copies isn't on Earth.
14:51 < apotheon> Okay, whatever the aliens in the Star Wars galaxy call their equivalent of "Earth".
14:51 < apotheon> They might even call it Earth.
14:51 < apotheon> Just translate my uses of Earth into their language.
14:53 < fenn> it's not necessarily interstellar. one of the examples was "it is possible for some groups to escape at speeds they will _never_ be caught: aiming for the edge of the universe at such a high fraction of c that by the time the dominant culture realises they have left, it will be too late to catch them [due to the expansion of the universe]"
14:54 < apotheon> okay
14:54 < apotheon> let's just not discuss it if a relevant example is disallowed from discussion
14:56 < fenn> so you're postulating there would be two hops in the parent galaxy, and _then_ they'd shoot for milkway.earth?
14:57 < fenn> (or somewhere nearby)
14:58 < fenn> how am i supposed to have guessed this elaborate scenario?
14:58 < fenn> the simplest thing is to just have one hop from B's galaxy to here in the milky way
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15:05 < kanzure> apotheon: does it surprise you that there are people who literally *don't* care about the "it's not you" problem?
15:06 < apotheon> kanzure: No, it doesn't surprise me.  I just don't know who doesn't care until they argue the point.
15:07 < apotheon> fenn: I was referring to what I recall of an implication of the paper's own words.
15:07 < fenn> personally, i do care about this particular instance of me. but i am not going to extend that to every possible alien civilization in the universe
15:08 < kanzure> fenn: yes but most people are using "i care about this instance of me" as a reason why they wouldn't want to have a full mental clone.
15:08 < apotheon> I don't care about having a full mental clone, yet.
15:08 < apotheon> It's orthogonal to the question.
15:08 < apotheon> Anyway, I have stuff to do.  I shan't be very active here for a bit.  I suppose fenn might rejoice.
15:09 < fenn> hurrah.
15:09 < kanzure> are you a redditor?
15:09 < kanzure> (i guess that question has lost its meaning now that everyone is a redditor)
15:09 < fenn> i have never posted to reddit
15:10 < kanzure> (apotheon may have come from #reddit-nootropics which would explain why he fits that pattern so well)
15:10 < fenn> i don't see any pattern he fits
15:11 < kanzure> alright maybe i'm reading too much into his statements
15:11 < apotheon> I'm an ex-redditor.  That place is insane.
15:12 < apotheon> I came here semi-parallel to #reddit-nootropics, via ALIS searches.
15:12 < apotheon> reddit = toxic stew
15:13 < kanzure> hmmm
15:13 < kanzure> alright
15:15 < apotheon> I'm curious about what you consider to be "the profile" that I fit.
15:15 < apotheon> actually curious, not passive-aggressive "how dare you" curious
15:18 < apotheon> s/profile/pattern/
15:18 < kanzure> for years we experienced an influx of redditors that would make vague statements, take attention, and not build anything just... talk.
15:19 < kanzure> almost usually from -nootropics for some reason
15:19 < kanzure> i think we were in their /title for a while
15:22 < apotheon> The things I build aren't exactly perfect matches for this channel's topics, in that they're meta-useful rather than directly useful, so I guess I don't have as much concrete stuff to contribute, but the topic area interests me.
15:23 < apotheon> I do want to help such goals, but would do so by making it easier to pursue them, rather than by pursuing them directly.
15:24 < apotheon> (e.g. building systems that facilitate the activities of people pursuing such goals)
15:29 < apotheon> If you honestly think I'm a net detriment to this community, I can leave.  I'd rather people make progress at things.
15:29 < apotheon> I kinda wonder how fenn doesn't run afoul of that, though.
15:30 < fenn> i used to be more productive and less willing to be baited
15:30 < fenn> the channel as a whole is less active than it used to be
15:30 < apotheon> You seem baity yourself.  That was pretty much my first impression.
15:31 < fenn> no u
15:32 < fenn> reeee
15:32 < apotheon> table flip
15:32 < apotheon> /ragequit
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15:47 < kanzure> mimblewimble coinswap https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.msg56288711#msg56288711
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17:17 < kanzure> "dogecoin? you musk be joking" the well-anticipated sequel to "you must be joking, mr. feynman".
17:18 < kanzure> oh, "surely you're joking, mr. feynman"
17:20 < lsneff> modern times are full of stupid things happening
17:22 < kanzure> yeah maybe we should try to optimize for stupid, there might be something to this
17:24 < lsneff> humans already optimize for stupid
17:29 < kanzure> https://medium.com/blockstream/cat-and-schnorr-tricks-i-faf1b59bd298
18:22 < lsneff> at the risk of sounding privileged and ungrateful: people reach out to me asking if I want to intern on this or that——and they're usually interesting enough——but i'm pretty tired of programming simply for the sake of programming and want to program *for* the advancement of humanity——like space, bci, etc. *sigh*
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18:31 < kanzure> lsneff: unfortunately the broad economic incentives make long-shots (even with high yields) look bad against less-risky short-term things
18:31 < kanzure> unrelated, but you may want to try interning for that longevity vc fund
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18:49  * L29Ah develops electronics for a friendly biochem startup as a free lancer
18:50 < L29Ah> lsneff: at the risk of sounding privileged and ungrateful: try networking with the target audience
18:53 < lsneff> L29Ah: ive tried doing that, but im really not sure how. i have the network I have now largely because i did a cool os project in high school
18:54 < lsneff> kanzure: i think I know the one you're referring to. will look into it
18:55 < lsneff> i did a bunch of networking for nanotech. talked to eric drexler, adam marblestone, schafmeister, and others, but now I'm not sure sure if that's the path I want to go down
18:57 < L29Ah> g://how to network with people
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19:34 < lsneff> indeed
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 08 00:00:23 2021