--- Log opened Sat Feb 27 00:00:41 2021
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11:33 < fenn> "Why do we breathe about 18 times per minute and can hold our breathe for at most about five minutes? Sea mammals, e.g. seals, whales, and dolphins, can go quite a bit longer. I think whales can do half an hour, but still they have to breathe much more often than they have to eat. I don't know how often seals and whales have to eat, but penguins, according to March of the Penguins, can last a
11:33 < fenn> couple months without eating. Snakes can last a year. Why can't a human take in enough oxygen to last more than a few minutes? The mass of oxygen needed wouldn't be more than the mass of the food used up in the same time. To put it positively, how could humans be modified to store a week's worth of oxygen? Suppose we could store hydrogen peroxide H2O2 in our bodies, which has an extra oxygen atom
11:33 < fenn> in each molecule. To present human physiology, hydrogen peroxide is a poison, whether breathed or drunk. Besides modifying that, we need an H2O2 storage organ."
11:34 < fenn> from http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/future/index.html
11:44 < kanzure> wasn't this a thing that freitas was writing about in like the 1920s
11:44 < kanzure> .wik respirocyte
11:44 < saxo> "Respirocytes are hypothetical, microscopic, artificial red blood cells that are intended to emulate the function of their organic counterparts, so as to supplement or replace the function of much of the human body's normal respiratory system." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirocyte
11:47 < fenn> yeah but i guess the point is that you don't need magical nanotech to do it
11:48 < fenn> regular old steam-locomotive grade biomedical technology will do
12:27 < yashgaroth> "The mass of oxygen needed wouldn't be more than the mass of the food used up in the same time." yea but hemoglobin has 500x the mass of each oxygen molecule it sequesters; I'm sure some organism with a shorter generation time has come up with a better hemoglobin, but not that much better
12:28 < fenn> the bulk of the oxygen would be stored in a more dense form (he suggested peroxide)
12:29 < fenn> hemoglobin is just a carrier
12:29 < fenn> there's also the problem of getting rid of CO2
12:29 < yashgaroth> yeah if you ain't breathing you ain't disposing of CO2
12:30 < fenn> you could hypothetically have a "scrubber" organ with some strong base and a selectively permeable membrane
12:31 < yashgaroth> that then only triggers when CO2 levels are critically high, otherwise it'll continually burn up whatever fancy biochemical substrate is invented to make it work in the first place...same thing for the oxygen storage I guess
12:33 < yashgaroth> if we're just talking about preserving life for 15-30 minutes, the CO2 might be dispensable since blood acidosis is fairly treatable; you'd just want the O2 storage exclusively in the brain where it's needed, the rest of the body can suck it
12:35 < yashgaroth> (assuming it's more about cardiac arrest than suddenly not being in a breathable atmosphere, in terms of what kills more people)
12:35 < fenn> oh i was thinking about deep sea habitation etc
12:37 < fenn> the whole not dying thing sounds like a plan though
12:37 < yashgaroth> oh I thought you were thinking about space travel, but same diff...more of a pain to lug around an oxygen cylinder when you're still in a gravity well tho
12:39 < fenn> you could of course lug around a H2O2 bottle and convert it to O2 on demand
12:39 < fenn> scrubbers are not very big either
12:42 < yashgaroth> I'm sure someone's done a comparison of hydrogen peroxide versus the regular oxygen candles on planes/submarines
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13:07 < fltrz> if its peroxide it will still weigh proportional to your food? also, I think it weighs quite a bit more than your food: for every 2H an O + for every C two O's
13:07 < fltrz> theres also thhe thing about not storing high concentrations of oxidizer and fuel in the same place
13:08 < fltrz> spontaneous combustion
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13:23 < fenn> food is mostly water
13:24 < fenn> the point is, it's the same order of magnitude
13:24 < fenn> high test peroxide is nasty stuff
13:25 < fenn> there are animals such as the bombardier beetle that produce and store it internally
13:25 < fenn> sometimes the beetle malfunctions and cooks itself
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 28 00:00:42 2021