--- Log opened Wed Mar 03 00:00:45 2021
00:12 < nmz787_> kanzure: where did you find that?
00:12 < nmz787_> lsneff: crowdsourcing basically
00:13 < nmz787_> lsneff: actually it's a pun on maxwell's demon
00:13 < nmz787_> .wik maxwells demon
00:13 < saxo> "Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment created by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1867 in which he suggested how the second law of thermodynamics might hypothetically be violated." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwells_demon
00:21 < nmz787_> L29Ah: without children (specialists or not), you've got no way of producing more people... which I guess is OK, but most people aren't out there killing themselves (even if they threaten to or consider it), so obviously they are compelled enough to keep living because of either fear or curiosity
00:21 < nmz787_> so, uh, I don't exactly get the comparison to cats
00:21 < nmz787_> where's the cat version of Elon Musk?
00:22 < nmz787_> where's the cat legion building and programming rockets that takeoff and land by themselves
00:22 < nmz787_> SpaceX is the used-to-be-children version
00:23 < nmz787_> there's a reason why I had a kid and haven't had a pet in my adult life
00:23 < nmz787_> because the possibilities are much more intriguing
00:24 < nmz787_> my not-yet-3 year old already rides a motorcycle and knows how to identify phase-change in states of matter (or at least I've trained him well enough to guess pretty well)
00:30 < nmz787_> after having a child, my worldview has changes in unimaginable ways... for example I now more-significantly question authorities who oversee/manage social programs if they haven't had children (because how the hell could they understand what the actual lifeblood of society requires to keep chugging along)
00:32 < Llamamoe> We're a world of people who used to be children, disregarding the next generations because it's not profitable or incentivized, and then leave them wondering why the world is fucked up
00:34 < nmz787_> there is incentive for me, it's making their life better than what I experienced (at least in childhood)... which could (hopefully) translate to a better life in the longterm (and possibly them positively influencing the world and people they interact with along the way)
00:36 < nmz787_> and also like, having a helper (isn't this the reason poor farmers have lots of kids, so they have free labor?)
00:39 < nmz787_> these days my kid can only fetch screwdrivers and such, but, I think he's probably more capable now than any robot my wife and I could have cobbled together with the same effort over the last 3.5 years
00:41 < Llamamoe> nmz787_: I think education in general is a crime against young minds
00:42 < Llamamoe> It teaches memorization, conformity, obedience, uses negative reinforcement instead of cultivating any positivity about learning. It doesn't teach critical thinking, metaknowledge, how to learn and apply knowledge, nothing.
00:42 < Llamamoe> Children go in to school still loving playing and learning in the process, and they come out thinking that "learning" is basically self-flagellation
00:43 < nmz787_> I don't think you mean education, but I know what you mean
00:44 < nmz787_> or at least, I don't think education should specifically be associated with that theme, but it is unfortunate that it is
00:44 < nmz787_> the western school system maybe?
00:44 < nmz787_> honestly though, a lot of education is memorization... we didn't always have computers, and it's not clear that we always will (or books for that matter)
00:45 < nmz787_> reading and writing is partially based on memorization of the characters, hand movements... speaking and listening similarly regarding sounds and flexing your throat muscles
00:49 < Llamamoe> nmz787_: They're not, it's still procedural learning. Anything that builds up to a system and almost all spontaneous learning is procedural learning. Memorization is when you force yourself to not build an understanding/system and instead just learn something
00:49 < nmz787_> Llamamoe: I had a largely horrible time in public U.S. schools, while my wife had pretty good time in India... she comparatively studied way more, actually did homework, but also had a better family life and got sent to tutors for pretty much her entire childhood
00:49 < Llamamoe> But yeah. School is basically free daycare
00:49 < Llamamoe> Most of the world's elite is people who were homeschooled
00:50 < Llamamoe> But that's probably a sign of families well off to afford it
00:50 < nmz787_> eh, it's a bit of a lifestyle choice from my experience
00:50 < nmz787_> basically our only friends with kids have all 3 homeschooled
00:50 < nmz787_> they aren't making as much as we are
00:52 < nmz787_> kids are pretty cheap if you aren't living like an entitled westerner who is oblivious to things like cooking dry beans
00:53 < nmz787_> Llamamoe: hmm, I guess I've never really memorized something then
00:53 < nmz787_> the mantra that has stuck with me re: neurobiology (and AI) is "what fires together, wires together"
00:56 < nmz787_> from my current perspective, school seems like it is desirable for me to send my kid to for socialization and maybe some slow-paced instructional learning which I just can't tolerate for as many hours as my kid wants it
00:56 < nmz787_> (we've never sent him to daycare or anything)
00:57 < nmz787_> and certainly a lot of school that might be daycare, is not free (i.e. catholic/private school)
00:57 < nmz787_> flavors like waldorf and montessori have attracted us, and would be within our budget
00:57 < nmz787_> but we're choosing to move rural, which I think will cut that option out unless we want to deal with commuting
00:58 < nmz787_> I figure I did pretty darn well in public school that I hated, because of my parents not being totally uninterested in my development
00:59 < nmz787_> so if we are super interested in enriching his learning experience, that he'll be fine
00:59 < nmz787_> (and if he gets bullied too much, or is drooling from boredom, then we'll reconsider)
01:26 < maaku> nmz787_: state schooling is so much more than "daycare." learning socialization skills and interacting with a great number of peers is way more important than cramming facts
01:28 < maaku> also, teachers are professionals. it's a discipline with standards and a constantly updated understanding of best practices. I'm supposed to do better as a total amateur while homeschooling my kids? please.
01:32 < maaku> not to mention the special services if you avail yourself of them.  my kiddos get 1:1 instruction with specialists in speech therapy and early intervention, by specialists with masters degrees in their fields. my littlest is just starting a counseling program.
01:33 < maaku> we have a whole team of professionals looking after them... where is that in homeschooling?
01:34 < maaku> If someone wants to homeschool their kids, fine great. I'm not going to get in their way. But it's annoying to be told off for sending my kids to state school.
01:41 < nmz787_> maaku: luckily our friends who homeschool aren't telling us off!
01:42 < nmz787_> as much as I hated most of my public schooling, my wife has to check my disregard and remind me that I was in their "scholars"/gifted program from 3rd grade until I dropped out in 11th (I think)
01:43 < nmz787_> in high school that meant I took programming classes
01:44 < nmz787_> it was definitely a little goofy, well ok a lot goofy, because while I was getting top marks in computer programming, I was sleeping through (and failing) Italian language
01:44 < nmz787_> but they wouldn't (from my memory) let me substitute "shop class"
01:44 < nmz787_> or like, auto mechanics
01:46 < nmz787_> similarly in college my govt loans required me to take a full 12 credit course load, or they wouldn't disperse my loan money... even though on several occasions I failed classes from being overloaded, which I knew (being overloaded)before the quarter/semester even began
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02:25 < Llamamoe> nmz787_ : I see learning as analogous to gradient descent. It's all data that doesn't fit into the same model due to differences being re-interpreted and compressed to fit, leading to the refinement of representations.
02:25 < Llamamoe> On the other hand just cramming facts outright sidesteps that process
02:25 < Llamamoe> I don't think well of education. Adequate education would not produce stupid people who don't know to evaluate and re-evaluate information
02:26 < Llamamoe> Or who are straight up averse to learning
03:15 < nmz787_> again, I think the term "education" in your usage is a bit off
03:15 < nmz787_> .wik education
03:15 < saxo> "Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, morals, beliefs, and habits." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education
03:16 < nmz787_> I'm pretty sure jrayhawk has a link about how the terrible school system you're referring to is actually defined
03:17 < nmz787_> something about British people trying to deal with street urchins and then the Indian population they took over
03:18 < nmz787_> and then that somehow becoming the model for all western societies, until alternatives came along in the past century-ish
03:18 < nmz787_> in other news, this is pretty satisfying to upload images to, after you figure out how to login https://www.myheritage.jp/deep-nostalgia
03:18 < nmz787_> .title
03:18 < saxo> MyHeritage Deep Nostalgia™, deep learning technology to animate the faces in still family photos - MyHeritage
03:20 < nmz787_> Llamamoe: I've definitely "educated" my son about electronics to the best of my ability given time constraints due to work, and given his general lack of knowledge... yet earlier today when I asked him what robots eat, and he replied "the ceiling" then I asked what powers his electronics kit, and he replied "batteries", and I again repeated asking what do robots eat, and he replied "electrons"...
03:21 < nmz787_> I'm pretty damn satisfied with his education thus far
03:21 < Llamamoe> Hehe
03:22 < Llamamoe> Don't push him too hard though, make sure he enjoys it and isn't doing it just to please you
03:22 < Llamamoe> And that he appreciates learning/effort and not just results
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03:31 < nmz787_> oh he definitely loves playing with his electronics
03:31 < nmz787_> I got him like 4 or 5 snap circuits kits
03:32 < Llamamoe> nmz787_: Those sound fun show me an example :O
03:32 < nmz787_> .wik snap circuits
03:33 < saxo> "Snap Circuits is a line of electronic kits manufactured by Elenco Electronics and aimed at children eight years and older.  The kits come in a variety of sizes, offering a range of building experience for the user, and may include capacitors, diodes, electric motors, lamps, [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_circuits
03:33 < nmz787_> that has a pic
03:33 < Llamamoe> Unironically that looks super awesome
03:33 < Llamamoe> I want one lol
03:33 < nmz787_> https://shop.elenco.com/consumers/snap-circuits-arcade.html
03:33 < Llamamoe> Oof pricey
03:34 < Llamamoe> But I guess including project ideas does give it a fair bit of value
03:34 < nmz787_> I got that one first a few years before he was born, in case my friends with the omeschooled kids came over for dinner or something
03:34 < nmz787_> (at a thrift shop for like $6)
03:34 < nmz787_> I've since purchased more, used, on ebay
03:35  * nmz787_ sleeps
03:36 < Llamamoe> Nini
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05:24 < maaku> nmz787_: I don't know about the UK, but I'm pretty sure we colonists had compulsory education before the british raj was even a thing
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05:40 < kanzure> maaku: yeah maybe schools are convenient for introducing lots of kids together, but it's also possible outside of school
05:50 < Llamamoe> https://old.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/kvo1lb/house_minority_leader_kevin_mccarthy_reportedly/gj00txx/?context=3
05:50 < Llamamoe> Came across this on reddit
05:51 < Llamamoe> Apparently in the USA public education was originally created to ensure a working class, and make sure they don't get any strange ideas about economic mobility or criticism of capitalism in their heads
05:52 < Llamamoe> It in general seems like in majority of places where mandatory education was implemented, it wasn't really about helping people go far in life
05:52 < kanzure> that's what they want you to think; in reality, it's just a huge sprawling system that nobody takes responsibility for. it's nothing about capitalism or class warfare or whatever.
05:53 < kanzure> plus, the schools don't even teach capitalism
05:53 < L29Ah> damn i wish my school teached me capitalism
05:54 < L29Ah> so i didn't lose my 200₿ in a ponzi
05:55 < kanzure> how cool would that be? "okay kids we're going to teach entrepreneurship and why free trade is the greatest force known to man"
05:55 < kanzure> "can any of you spell prop-er-ty?"
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06:09 < fltrz> schools are very effective for indoctrination. it's all related to the ratio of lifetime of a civilization or empire (say a few centuries) to the working real working life experience of an adult (say 40 years)
06:10 < fltrz> this can be changed if we devise a low effort educational mechanism (brain computer interface with educational software) where there is no censorship on content
06:12 < fltrz> re ordered the audio codecs, through aliexpress this time...
06:13 < L29Ah> was pleasantly surprised with todays prices on switched-mode welders, ordered one
06:24 < fltrz> I really hope its not vaporware dropshipping again
06:25 < fltrz> at least this time they explicitly mention a stock of 997 x10 chips
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09:09 < fltrz> psychotic netsplits
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10:02 < jrayhawk> some of the free school models, such as sudbury valley, operate on a basis of "if your project requires money, you get to sell goods and services to fundraise for it"
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12:10 < fenn> starship SN10 flop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDEgFsefrGw
12:10 < fenn> T-4 minutes
12:18 < jrayhawk> is it scrubbed
12:22 < apotheon> This is kinda interesting.
12:22 < apotheon> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210226/06104846322/not-ok-zoomer-heres-why-you-hate-videoconference-meetings-what-to-do-about-it.shtml
12:22 < apotheon> haven't read the paper, just the article, so far
12:27 < jrayhawk> "frustrum" is a funny slip
12:27 < apotheon> Slip?
12:28 < jrayhawk> the term is frustum
12:28 < apotheon> yeah
12:28 < apotheon> Maybe you mean a slip in the paper, and an unchecked duplication in the article, then.
12:28 < apotheon> That makes sense.
12:28 < fenn> not sure if it's scrubbed. they usually detank the ship after a short engine firing like that, but with all the permissions and stuff ready to go they want to try to start again, but first they have to figure out what went wrong
12:33 < fenn> they will try again in 2 hours
12:33 < jrayhawk> ah
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14:57 < abetusk> Does anyone have opinions on the new Schnorr paper?
14:57 < abetusk> https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/232.pdf
15:11 < fenn> Starship SN10 second flight attempt https://youtu.be/ODY6JWzS8WU
15:11 < fenn> T-3 minutes
15:28 < lsneff> nice landing
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15:34 < abetusk> .tw https://twitter.com/SchmiegSophie/status/1367197193057181703
15:34 < saxo> In short, it does not prove what the abstract claims it proves. (@SchmiegSophie, in reply to tw:1367197192172179456)
15:38 < lsneff> oh look, it flew again
15:48 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26329791
15:48 < saxo> Schnorr confirms paper is his, claims it “destroys RSA cryptosystem” | Hacker News
15:48 < kanzure> see the comments.
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16:04 < lsneff> > Schnorr’s paper claims to factor 400-bit moduli in 4.2·10⁹ operations and 800-bit moduli in 8.4·10¹⁰
16:07 < fltrz> abetusk, I almost had a heart attack when he described the triples, its pretty similar to my method, but I calmed down upon realizing the paper is too incoherent and incomplete, and aborted my doomsday dead man switch as I don't wish to start a premature revolution
16:07 < fltrz> there is still time, but perhaps not much
16:09 < fltrz> or perhaps I am trying to bluff people into abstaining from one of a finite set of cryptographic primitives, that is for me to know and for others to guess
16:09 < fltrz> :)
16:10 < abetusk> fltrz, is there a fundamental problem with finding smooth numbers via lattice reduction like this?
16:15 < fltrz> in a ring of integers mod N, one can not *sensibly* compare 2 numbers and say a>b. but given triples, you can say if (a,b,c) are "clockwise" or "counterclockwise"
16:18 < abetusk> How do you determine that?
16:22 < fltrz> say mod 35: 13, 20, 27 is clockwise, so are 20,27,13 and 27, 13,20 but 27,20,13 is counterclockwise and so are its cyclic permutations
16:23 < fltrz> the origin is irrelevant when asking if a>b; however comparison is generalized to modular arithmetic, it should also be independent of a choice of origin
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16:32 < fltrz> instead of comparing 2 numbers modular arithmetic forces you to compare 3 numbers. think of the guessing game "i have a number between 0 and 1000, you can make a guess and I say higher or lower" then you can play by extracting one bit at a time. if you don't realize how to *sensibly* extract one bit at a time, you can't solve problems of a similar kind in modular arithmetic
16:33 < fltrz> so > : (a,b) ->{0,1}; but for mod arithmetic it needs to operate on triples >>: (a,b,c) -> {0,1}
16:36 < fltrz> think of it this way: if I give you x = 2^9 mod 21 (pretend these small numbers are really large). then given x you can't use the naive x % 21 value for comparisons because during exponentiation and remainder, you lost the winding number
16:37 < fltrz> thats the easier insight from my method. the second insight is my secret sauce... which, obvio, is for me to know and for you to guess, otherwise it wouldn't be good secret sauce ;)
16:38 < abetusk> hm, ok
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22:18 < fenn> starship SN10's third launch attempt: http://youtu.be/_jWbqhP5eJI?t=8h26m
22:25 < fenn> starship SN10's third launch attempt, in slow-mo: http://youtu.be/_jWbqhP5eJI?t=8h56m
23:38 < fenn> .title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41538-021-00090-7
23:38 < saxo> Formation of contractile 3D bovine muscle tissue for construction of millimetre-thick cultured steak | npj Science of Food
--- Log closed Thu Mar 04 00:00:46 2021