--- Log opened Thu Mar 18 00:00:59 2021
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01:40 < TMA> adlai: well, I used to be able to do analytical work in software engineering, I used to be able to program. nowadays about the only thought pops out if I attempt it again is "there is no merit, no purpose, no sense. we are all going to die anyway, why bother"
01:47 < adlai> that is neither a disease nor an intellectual failure, although it does appear in various medical texts under a bad name
01:48 < adlai> have you considered disambiguating between general malaise and anhedonia?
01:51  * adlai has a slightly chemical metaphor for how a perceived lack of frequent productivity is orthogonal to any definite such lack on a larger scale
01:53 < adlai> essentially, going rapidly down one kinetic path does not always result in progress towards the desired reaction product
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02:02 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | as investigated by the fbi weapons of mass destruction division | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | https://diyhpl.us/wiki | not quite sponsored by george church | banned by the MIT media lab
02:02 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Thu Oct 17 10:53:37 2019]
02:02 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
02:02 [ abetusk        ] [ juul        ] 
02:02 [ acertain       ] [ kanzure     ] 
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02:02 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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05:31 < abetusk> Can someone point me to (or just tell me) the pros and cons of having a cryptocurrency that has it's mined coins halved periodically (like Bitcoin)? Why not keep it linear? Why not have a power law decrease? Also, what happens in 'steady-state' of Bitcoin, after all coins have been mined, do transaction fees get halved every so often or do they stay constant?
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06:21 < darsie> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26855426/  "Cryo-electron microscopy structure of a coronavirus spike glycoprotein trimer" Does this indicate 3D brain scanning could become possible?
06:21 < darsie> For WBE
06:27 < darsie> abetusk: How about taking this to #bitcoin ?
06:36 < lsneff> darsie: the tech for scanning brains is probably going to be based on aldehyde-stabilized cryropreservation.
06:37 < darsie> I've seen the long video and the micrographs. Wondering if that protein scan is more detailed.
06:41 < lsneff> Sure, you can get very detailed images through a number of different scanning techniques.
06:41 < lsneff> I think the current thought is that a resolution that high won't be necessary
06:43 < TMA> isn
06:44 < TMA> isn't the problem still that the imaging can be done either detailed enough or on a large-enough scale but not both?
06:46 < lsneff> yes
06:46 < darsie> Would electron microscopy excessively destroy tissue with the electrons?
06:48 < TMA> darsie: I think the main problem is that you need to prepare the sample by a process that destroys everything in the vicinity
06:48 < lsneff> yes, destructive scanning is the only one feasible with current and near tech
06:49 < lsneff> the brain must be sliced into extremely thin layers
06:49 < darsie> I mean destroy tissue beneath the tissue currently in focus so it can not be sufficiently scanned when it's the top layer.
06:50 < darsie> Slice? I thought it would be ablated.
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06:51 < lsneff> it's both. the tissue is sliced, and then each slice is ablated as it's scanned.
06:51 < darsie> Do you need to thaw tissue to slice it?
06:54 < lsneff> not sure about that
06:55 < lsneff> in the documents about asc I've read, it seems like the possible process is to thaw, flush out the glutaraldehyde, stain the brain, and then fix with resin.
06:55 < darsie> The aldehyde can't be flushed. It chemically bonds to the proteins, I think.
06:56 < darsie> It bonds proteins together, thus immobilizing htem and making them unreactive.
06:57 < lsneff> you're right, I was thinking about the cryopreservants being flushed
07:19 < kanzure> abetusk: transaction fees do not get halved by the protocol, it's just competition against other transactions increases fee pressure basically
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10:57 < maaku> abetusk darsie you're only going to get a very biased (and wrong) point of view on that question in #bitcoin
10:58 < maaku> kanzure: issuance doesn't have to go to the miners...
11:03 < jrayhawk> inflation feeds economic growth by making money a less effective long-term store of value than investments, such that a prediction market on the effectiveness of ongoing human endeavours gets formed
11:03 < jrayhawk> individual incentives would be to defect onto a deflationary store of value with less risk
11:04 < jrayhawk> normally social systems are put in place to punish defectors, but this is not particularly feasible with cryptocurrency
11:04 < jrayhawk> it's probably pathological that "cryptographic tokens" replace "well-managed systems of on-going human effort" as society's primary deflationary store of value, but individual incentives make this seemingly inevitable
11:05 < jrayhawk> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ for more on pathological individual incentives
11:09 < jrayhawk> inflation allocated to miners would also stabilize network security in the event that the fee market dries out (such as due to extreme market uncertainty or in the event of a solar storm destroying most of the internet), but, again, individual incentives are to defect onto a deflationary store of value
11:09 < darsie> maaku: Well, I'd have replied the deminishing block reward is to create bitcoin scarcity to cause deflation.
11:09 < jrayhawk> so a deflationary currency will outcompete an inflationary one unless we coordinate to punish defectors.
11:10 < jrayhawk> which we probably can't.
11:11 < darsie> jrayhawk: Well, the value of bitcoin would rise, but there's a downside to such a currency. People would hold it, instead of investing it, and economy would dive.
11:22 < maaku> jrayhawk: punishment of defectors isn't the only option
11:22 < maaku> you can also use the carrot: inflationary system needs a constant reward, and you distribute that award more effectively than simply giving it to the miners
11:24 < maaku> darsie: that's what jrayhawk is saying. it's a tragedy of the commons
11:25 < maaku> (darsie: this is what I work on, but it's a bit off topic for this channel. you can find me on #tradecraft)
11:30 < jrayhawk> i am not sure i understand. are you thinking per-capita allocation, at which point people who are better than average at accumulating capital are incentivized to move it into investments? why wouldn't they still defect onto a deflationary currency?
11:30 < jrayhawk> or are there some papers i should read
11:32 < maaku> I'm talking about my own system I'm building, so no paper (yet)
11:33 < maaku> But we're going to use proof-of-stake to coordinate periodic UASF mandates that a percentage of the block reward goes to X, where X is the winner of the proof-of-stake election
11:35 < maaku> There are periodic elections where different parties promise what they're going to do with the block reward. The winning coalition gets a temporary soft-fork rule that the % of the inflation reward goes to them.
11:35 < fenn> investment in productive activities just has to beat out the deflation rate to be rational
11:36 < fenn> shouldn't you be demonizing people that burn bitcoins instead?
11:36 < jrayhawk> it's a curve; there are more mediocre opportunities than amazing ones
11:36 < maaku> Since the resulting dynamic resembles parlimentary elections, we called this "republicoin" back in 2013, although that name now resolves to some other altcoin on google.
11:37 < maaku> I got distracted by a startup shortly after, but now I'm back and working towards getting it implemented on freicoin/tradecraft.
11:39 < maaku> fenn: then society loses out on the long tail of good investment opportunities which offer returns, but less than the expected deflationary "return" on investment
11:39 < fenn> sounds like a win?
11:39 < maaku> how so?
11:40 < fenn> you just need some feedback mechanism to keep the threshold (deflation rate) at a reasonable value
11:40 < fenn> if the investment opportunity was really that mediocre, nobody should be investing in it
11:40 < jrayhawk> the "reasonable rate" turns out to be negative
11:40 < maaku> maximum economic productivity (meaning: maximum sociatal progress) is achieved when every >0% ROI endeavor is funded
11:40 < jrayhawk> this is why central bankers are obsessed with carefully adjusting inflation rates
11:41 < maaku> but if deflatacoin (e.g. bitcoin) averages 10% per year, then all efforts which "only" offer, say 5% or 7% ROI don't get funded
11:41 < maaku> in the worst case this leads to a scarcity of investment in critical sectors which sets up a societal decline
11:42 < fenn> but isn't it bad to have 100% of capital already allocated to something or other? for example, if the stock market crashes, then everybody starves for mysterious "the economy broke" reasons, like what happened in 1930
11:42 < maaku> the whole world moving to bitcoin is a nightmare scenario from a macroecon standpoing :\
11:42 < maaku> fenn: this dynamic is exactly what led to failure in 1930
11:43 < maaku> so I'm not sure what you're saying
11:43 < fenn> with unallocated capital, there's more slack in the system, so it's less vulnerable to shocks
11:46 < TMA> it can be argued, that inflation reduces investment
11:46 < fenn> make the argument then
11:47 < maaku> fenn: again though, a shock to the system is exactly when that unallocated capital won't get invested
11:47 < TMA> inflation shifts propensity to save down, because it is more advantageous to consume now. investment is only made with the residual monies that remain after consumption
11:48 < fenn> speculators will buy on the dip, evening out the shocks. i don't understand what you're even saying?
11:50 < maaku> fenn: with a deflationary currency, a system shock results in *increasing* buying power, as people retreat to cash holdings
11:50 < fenn> TMA: inflation devalues fiat currency, shifting propensity to save onto other asset types, such as land, gold, or stocks
11:51 < maaku> when the market has troubles, gold goes up
11:51 < fenn> indeed
11:51 < maaku> back when we had gold-based currencies, this casuse recessions to spiral out of control
11:51 < fltrz> well gold went down when oil went cheap because of lockdown
11:51 < TMA> there is the other argument, that price inflation is usually faster than wage inflation (or at least wage inflation lags beyond price inflation)
11:51 < maaku> fltrz: oddly we're not in a recession :\
11:52 < maaku> bitcoin is digital gold.. don't expect it to operate differently
11:53 < fltrz> maaku, don't get me wrong, I too think that taxation shouldnt all go to miners, and we need some form of verifiable concensus protocol driven democracy
11:54 < maaku> fltrz: well, I'm working on it
11:54 < fltrz> if we only cryptographically secure money, but not the rest of things like democracy, rule of law, separation of powers, rechtstaat, ... we shouldn't be surprised to lose all the other things when everyone flees to bitcoin
11:54 < fenn> well maaku this is the other side of the argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BankingCrises.svg
11:55 < fltrz> maaku, for me the more important facet is objective judging, both for intellectual work (say verifying proofs) and for courts. We can't really elegantly express laws in the form of smart contracts, we need formal verifiers in the consensus protocol client
11:57 < fltrz> deduction, rational thought, argumentation,... thats not imperative code, but rather logic / math, so we should look at things like MetaMath software
11:57 < maaku> fenn: I'm not sure that chart shows anything other than (1) globalization, and (2) Bretton Woods prevented banking crisis by fiat (yay), but unstated whether it was sustainable
12:00 < TMA> what does currency (fiat or otherwise) really represent? it represents some amount of future goodwill towards the holder. inflation is therefore a form of goodwill decay... inflation basically says, that other people are on average 2% more evil year on year
12:02 < TMA> (evil has a technical meaning here... less likely to render some useful service or deliver some goods for the same consideration)
12:03 < superkuh> Fiat value represents the belief in the armies behind the country to enforce contracts.
12:03 < maaku> TMA: I don't think that's a wholistic view of currency
12:03 < maaku> you've completely ignored things like unit of account, debt, etc.
12:03 < superkuh> Er, s/country/currency/
12:03 < apotheon> The extent to which we "need" that decay of "good will" may easily be offset, societally, by eliminating rest-on-your-laurels laws (e.g. copyright).
12:04 < superkuh> Standing army size (or treaties of protection) are the proof of work for fiat.
12:04 < apotheon> maaku: Debt would be the loaning of one's store of good will.
12:04 < maaku> TMA: if you swap debt for currency then your evil vs good-will gets swapped as well
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12:05 < maaku> and there is more debt than currency, so your argument is actually for inflation...
12:05 < jrayhawk> even within that framework, maximizing expected good will still potentially involves reallocating past good will towards those most likely to produce it in the future (hence the prediction market of investment)
12:07 < apotheon> I think we'd be better off if the prediction market and investment were decoupled.
12:07 < maaku> jrayhawk: I really like the "prediction market" explanation, thank you
12:07 < fltrz> TMA, I disagree with inflation *necessarily* meaning ill will towards the holder, it all depends on what happens with the freshly minted coin: does it go to some oppressive regime? is it distributed sybilfree like a basic income? is it used to to fund exactly those projects in public interest where the majority agrees it should be rewarded but where they find themselves in a tragedy of the commons?
12:08 < fenn> maaku, a minor point, but how would bitcoin deflate by 10% a year?
12:09 < apotheon> In practice, freshly minted coin goes to those who already have the most.
12:09 < maaku> fenn: I was talking about buying power increasing by 10% per year
12:10 < fltrz> apotheon, "in practice" only sai
12:10 < fltrz> *only says something about the current systems in existence
12:10 < apotheon> indeed
12:10 < apotheon> How do we prevent such systems from developing, though?
12:10 < fltrz> apotheon, I believe the average rent system automatically prevents it
12:11 < apotheon> Creating central entities that manage such things creates power centers, which attract sociopaths and other malignant narcissists and, ultimately, repel everyone else.
12:11 < fltrz> apotheon, the average rent system doesn't create a "central' system but a decentralized / uniformly applied one
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12:11 < apotheon> How do you create an average rent system in the real world?
12:12 < apotheon> . . . via power centers?
12:14 < fltrz> apotheon, bootstrap with openstreetmap, each parcel is up for rent, the sum of all rent is continuously redistributed to sybil free human wallets, but instead of receiving 100% of your average rent you receive 100% - epsilon, where epsilon is a function of non-compliance: if you bid highest on a place but the current occupant refuses to leave you use your peak bid status linked to you cryptographically to complain about the noncompliance, and the
12:14 < fltrz> delta fraction of the budget goes to rewarding people with sticks to enforce your valid claim to current renter
12:15 < fltrz> apotheon, at no point do you need a central system, except for the currently very centralized infra of the internet
12:16 < fltrz> as compliance is approached we all receive ~100% average rent
12:17 < fenn> and never a penny more
12:17 < apotheon> fltrz: I'm not asking about the implementation.  I'm asking about the permission to deploy, given the fact a currently extant power center will send people to stop you if you compete with its own property management scheme.
12:17 < fltrz> fenn, you can still work and earn extra on top of average rent
12:18 < fenn> what happens to your system when due to the invention of teleporation, suddenly land is no longer a valuable commodity?
12:18 < apotheon> fenn: It goes away, unless it has changed a lot more than I expect of it.
12:18 < fltrz> apotheon, yes, so because the average rent system doesn't define (explicitly nor implicitly) an elite that creams off part of the redistributed average rent, the average rent system can always outbid the classic powers when paying men with sticks (this could even be the current soldiers and police)
12:18 < apotheon> also, not "my" system
12:19 < apotheon> fltrz: Go for it.  I'll watch to see what happens.
12:20 < fenn> i guess i'm mostly poking at the assumption that rent is supposed to be a major component of one's expenses
12:21 < fltrz> fenn, if you have teleportation / wormholes you have time travel, and nearly every minimally conscientious operator of time travel will end up implementing true democracy (for reasons that may be hard to understand if you haven't thought about it)
12:21 < fenn> there's no way you could possibly know
12:22 < fltrz> fenn, that rent is also food, energy, mineral resources; as farm land, wind/solar farm land, mines etc are also rented from the public
12:22 < fenn> anyway this is rapidly veering into a "my system is the best evar!!" rant, so i'll step out
12:23 < fenn> but jesus christ, you people all hate freedom, what? how did this happen?
12:23 < apotheon> Oh, best systems assertions.  Okay: Panarchism!
12:23 < apotheon> tadaaa
12:23 < fltrz> yes the discovery that pessimism is unwarranted, is a very painful one: it means something could have been done about all this shit for a long time
12:23 < apotheon> fltrz: I don't.
12:23 < apotheon> oops
12:23 < apotheon> wrong f
12:23 < apotheon> fenn: I don't.
12:24 < fenn> sorry, apotheon excluded
12:24 < apotheon> thanks
12:24 < fltrz> fenn, my system is *for* freedom
12:24 < apotheon> The big problem seems to be people defining "freedom" differently.
12:24 < fenn> unless you're going to coordinate to punish people who dare to not spend all their tokens immediately at the barest opportunity
12:25 < fenn> they're not really my tokens if i have to give them away
12:25 < fltrz> fenn, of course you're allowed to save your average rent: you could choose to live in a cheap spot, while working, and then later have a shitload
12:26 < fltrz> it just insures that all transactions are *voluntary*, instead of pseudo-voluntary: people who do tasks out of despair for being homeless
12:26 < maaku> fenn: correcting base incentives that lead to systemic biases at scale isn't attacking freedom, it's creating a level playing field
12:27 < fltrz> (i'm really hoping you don't consider your right to fuck some desperate poor girl for a carrot and some rice "freedom")
12:27 < maaku> e.g you should be free to make an actual free choice, not have the deck stacked against you so badly that you have no real choices
12:27 < fltrz> ^
12:27 < fltrz> thanks maaku
12:27 < superkuh> The concepts of negative liberty and positive liberty make talking about this easier.
12:28 < jrayhawk> that 'good will' abstraction is fun. cults of personality monopolizing good will accumulation become isomorphic to merchant-king monopolies of capital accumulation.
12:28 < fenn> (down and out in the magic kingdom)
12:28 < superkuh> "Negative liberty is freedom from interference by other people. Negative liberty is primarily concerned with freedom from external restraint and contrasts with positive liberty (the possession of the power and resources to fulfil one's own potential)"
12:33 < fenn> which kind of liberty is not being dependent on the continuation of an external system?
12:33 < fltrz> apotheon, I skipped another power centre besides current internet infrastructure: SMM / TrustZone rootkits
12:34 < fltrz> fenn, could you paraphrase your last question? its not clear what you are asking / claiming?
12:36 < fenn> it seems to me, that a large fraction of current discussion participants wish to create a system that forces literally everyone to participate in it. this system purports to fulfill all our needs and is "best" and i am to be punished if i do not participate
12:36 < apotheon> Wait . . . that's not panarchism!
12:36 < maaku> fenn: you are free to disappear into the wilderness and be a mountain man
12:36 < fenn> if this system decides for some reason to no longer continue providing all my needs, i would have no alternative way to fulfill those needs. is this situation failing to provide positive or negative liberty?
12:38 < fenn> (also i might have a sign error on "negative liberty", not sure as i've just encountered the concept)
12:38 < fltrz> fenn, it doesn't fullfill your needs: you get average world rent, and you choose how to send it: you might choose to live in the streets and fuck your avg rent away each day as it trickles in; you choose what parcel you bid on, you choose what food you buy with it, and the ratio of expense on food or housing or saving or ...
12:39 < superkuh> That is an aspect of positive liberty until force was used against you to prevent you from providing for yourself.
12:40 < fltrz> fenn, I phrased my system to avoid the "categorical pitfall" of historical "socialized systems": they speak in vague terms of "the right to housing" etc; but fit is not fundamentally possible to guarantee it: what if an earthquake destroys all housing etc? whereas with average rent you can always guarantee that on whatever parcel the rent is spent; it is redistributed fairly
12:41 < fltrz> a system should never try to guarantee things it can not provably guarantee; thats why I chose it to only guarantee what is provably feasible: the sum of all rent expended, divided over the number of humans expending it is by definition equal to the average rent
12:43 < maaku> fltrz: some people own rather than rent?
12:43 < fltrz> this way theres no broken promises, where a large portion of the populace pays taxes (somewhat begrudgingly, but still acceptingly, since one day they might be the poor guy) only to discover it doesn't actually return the "promises" when you find yourself in a pickle
12:43 < fltrz> maaku, no in my system everyone rents
12:43 < maaku> are you talking about georgist land taxes?
12:44 < fltrz> if you want more than average you need a job (or savings) on top of your rent; if you satisfied with less you have surplus leftover to spend or save
12:44 < fltrz> maaku, yes geoist / georgism; but instead of using it as taxation; instantly redistribute over blockchain to the populace
12:45 < fltrz> * if you want a nicer spot than average you need to work or spend saving; if you are satisfied with a less desired spot to live you can save or spend your surplus
12:46 < fenn> what happens when i build my mountain man unabomber hut in the middle of nowhere, and then people think "woah so retreaux unabomber dude is cool again" and my hut is suddenly valuable according to the average rent system?
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12:46 < maaku> I'm not sure you want a blockchain, but ok I understand you
12:46 < maaku> georgist land tax + basic income equal to per capita land tax
12:46 < fenn> is my hut now part of the system and i have to give it up because "rent"
12:46 < fltrz> fenn, they can bid on your hut (unless it was actually in the wilderness and deemed strictly for nature say)
12:47 < fenn> will i be perpetually hounded by gentrification?
12:47 < maaku> fenn: in this system, yes
12:47 < fltrz> maaku, the georgist land tax is equal to / sponsors basic income + compliance
12:48 < fenn> what incentive do i have to invest in my own property when i am almost certain to be evicted/the value i create taken from me
12:48 < jrayhawk> https://www.nps.gov/lacl/planyourvisit/visit-proenneke-cabin.htm funnily, dick proenneke's cabin is maintained by park service rangers now
12:48 < maaku> fenn: there are georgist land tax variants which provide same-owner adjustment limits like california's prop 10
12:48 < fltrz> fenn, what incentive do you have to fix a hole in the road for free? if you do that today you are just doing a good deed for the public
12:49 < fenn> i am part of the public
12:49 < maaku> fenn: not sure about fltrz's system, but in georgist (or gesell's "free land" this more closely resembles) land taxes you would be compensated for the fair market value of your improvements if you are outbid
12:49 < fltrz> sure, so if you like building huts for the public for free nobody stops you (unless it somehow violates other laws)
12:50 < fenn> no fltrz you're missing the point. it's not a true "exit" option if you can just come in and take my shit
12:52 < fltrz> right so I would argue that upon renter switch the place needs to be inspected to prevent vandalism (they can pay it back by not receiving avg rent for a long while); but for improvements I argue that you simply propose to the public you want a swimming pool in your garden: the public has the whole cadaster publically available so we can objectively see what the rent bids are in that area for such a house with or without a pool and determine if its
12:52 < fltrz> worth it; if not, the person requisting funds to put a pooll in the garden of his rented house should just bid higher on one of the houses in the area that already has a pool
12:53 < fltrz> since the bids are all public you can essentially do this decision in an objective fashion
12:54 < fltrz> no need for individuals "taking initiative" AKA taking uninformed economic risks
12:54 < fenn> you put way too much faith in actuarial assessment
12:55 < fenn> there are real costs to moving, and also houses are not actually fungible because humans are irrational animals
12:55 < fltrz> ah but rent dataset isnt public and its polluted with investment assessments, so its hard to separate investment bubbles from sincere rentership bids
12:56 < fenn> also now you are talking about swimming pools and i don't really know why
12:56 < fltrz> but in average rent system, the dataset is public, and its not polluted by speculative pricing because land isn't owned
12:56 < fenn> i was trying to leave the rent system by building a mountain hut, but your hipsters evicted me from my mountain hut
12:56 < fltrz> fenn, its just an example of what you requested: what incentive is there to improve a parcel?
12:57 < fenn> so now i have to buy some other stinky dirty hut that is not my hut
12:57 < fenn> it has the WRONG STINK you see
12:57 < fltrz> fenn, some random allowed hut will be cheap enough, so that if you don't like the system you can just log in and spend rent on the hut, and then ignore the rest of society
12:58 < fenn> to any hipster they are all cool and retreaux unabomber huts and equally shabby chic, but not to me
12:58 < fltrz> you sound like that chic hipster though :/
13:00 < fenn> i don't want to buy a hut at all. i wanted to stay in my own hut
13:00 < fenn> also i would feel bad about kicking richard stallman out of his hut
13:00 < fltrz> so on one hand we have the poor and abused in society complaining of the manufactured consent "voluntary" trade they see no way but participate in; and on the other hand we have the horrible oppression of needing to get a sybilfree token, logging in, directing all the average rent to some hut so that no sane person would outbid it; what a horror
13:01 < fenn> but hipsters with their twitter 9000 speculotron will be raking in cash and buying up huts left and right
13:01 < fltrz> do they really?
13:02 < fenn> you're just forcing me to participate in the entire system, not just the average rent part
13:02 < jrayhawk> hipster unabomber huts sounds silly, but, well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit
13:02 < fltrz> its like NFT's, a lot of people *think* its being bought massively; but I think its just scammers selling it to themselves to make it appear as if they appreciate in value
13:03 < fltrz> I know nobody who has actually bought one of the NFT jpeg bullshit creatures or whatever
13:03 < fltrz> literally none. its a vapormarket
13:03 < fenn> glad i have no idea what that is then
13:04 < fltrz> fenn, apparently at each new wave of bitcoin incomers people recycle the old bullshit under new names; like colored coins are today called NFT's
13:04 < fenn> as long as rents can be supplemented with externally supplied non-rent-derived currency, there is no exit from the entire system
13:05 < fenn> if rents can't be supplemented with external currency, then people will illegally trade rent money for real money, and we're back where we started
13:06 < fltrz> what do you mean with external currency?
13:07 < fltrz> so suppose I'm a baker and I buy flower and sell break with avg rent currency (the natural unit of the currency is time btw); so the profit is also avg rent currency
13:08 < fltrz> *flour
13:08 < fenn> external currency is just any economic activity that is outside the scope of real estate
13:08 < fenn> i.e. not based on trading a good house for a bad house, or vice versa
13:08 < jrayhawk> "this is more valuable if represent it in a merkle tree because... reasons (???)" predates bitcoin
13:08 < jrayhawk> er, if we represent it
13:09 < fltrz> yes you can supplement it: we need more than just a place to grow food, a place to sleep
13:09 < jrayhawk> google wave hype, for instance
13:10 < fltrz> fenn, what do you mean with exit from the system? you want people to be able to exit the rule of law? to lure others to exit the protection of society too? so you can abuse them when you don't know how to consensually outcompete them with skill and labor?
13:10 < fenn> i actually liked google wave
13:11 < TMA> fltrz: there are several components, not just fresh coin minting (increase in velocity of money with money supply held constant is another cause of inflation)
13:11 < fenn> they flubbed the wave product launch, seemingly not understanding the value of network effects
13:12 < fenn> i don't recall any hype about a merkle tree in wave though
13:13 < fenn> fltrz: yes, i want people to be able to exit the rule of law, because all existing examples of it have proven to be flawed, and there is no upgrade path
13:14 < fltrz> fenn, are you one of those people who runs "mortal kombat" rings? like desperate people come there to pool their money and then fight till death?
13:14 < fenn> fltrz: your system is just even more oppressive than the one we already have, but you don't seem to realize it
13:14 < fenn> -_-
13:15 < fltrz> so oppressive that if I refuse to do any of the degrading jobs the system offers, at least the system guarantees an abstract proper share of earth, the food and shelter on it, the energy of the sun landing on it
13:16 < fltrz> which forces operators of business models to pay reasonable wages
13:16 < fltrz> or else people stay home
13:16 < fenn> that's the intent, but there are side effects you haven't considered
13:16 < fltrz> I'm still waiting for yours
13:16 < fltrz> br smoke
13:17 < jrayhawk> people were obsessed with cramming dumb shit into wavelets
13:17 < jrayhawk> just like they were obsessed with cramming dumb shit into git
13:17 < jrayhawk> and obsessed with cramming dumb shit into blockchains
13:19 < jrayhawk> i think this is generalizable to "if i abstract something, the abstraction is arbitrarily mutable, therefore i have ultimate power"
13:19 < jrayhawk> which is the same thing that causes post-modernists to go off a cliff of stupid
13:21 < jrayhawk> or some weaker form, like "if i abstract something, the abstraction is more mutable, therefore it is more powerful"
13:21 < jrayhawk> as if correlation equals causation
13:28 < jrayhawk> maybe i should be less cynical about it. the only way a child learns what a tool is good for is by trying to apply that tool to everything and see what sticks.
13:29 < jrayhawk> blockchains are definitely a lot more like screwdrivers and electrical outlets than previous iterations of this phenomenon
13:30 < TMA> fltrz: investment/speculative pricing on rent is just frontrunning, it does change only who is the beneficial recipient, not the amount
13:32 < fltrz> TMA, but speculation remains speculation, so its adding noise to the renting prices
13:36 < fltrz> but I certainly appreciate the frontrunning angle: consider multinational franchises like McDonalds, clearly money is flowing up; in avg rent it is always possible for the employees and customers to outbid McDonalds HQ to rent the local McDonalds (if it is lucrative enough to send money up, that money could be used to bid a little higher than HQ)
13:36 < TMA> fltrz: the opposing stance is that speculation merely adds liquidity hence reduces inefficiencies
13:36 < fltrz> so franchises fall apart and spontaneously decentralize
13:38 < TMA> fltrz: do you care to implement a model of your system?
13:38 < fltrz> this makes the wages a little higher and the food a little cheaper
13:38 < TMA> fltrz: say in NetLogo
13:39 < fltrz> what type of model? gillespie algorithm? what is NetLogo?
13:39 < fltrz> reading up NetLogo
13:39 < TMA> fltrz: a simulation software https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/
13:40 < TMA> reading up on gillespie algorithm
13:41 < fltrz> it allows to model phenomena as reactions
13:41 < fltrz> so its often used to model say gene regulating networks
13:43 < fltrz> average rent undermines asymmetric freeloading, and results in natural allowances and resources to be symmetrically freeloaded (our collective free land no human needed to create, our free mineral resources, our free sunlight,...)
13:44 < fltrz> "capitalism" is about capturing and fencing off these free natural allowances, to force favors from the have nots
14:00 < nsh> +1
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14:36 < fltrz> does anyone have experience with books3 from "the pile" aka "All of bilbliotik"?
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15:11 < lsneff> .wik calculus on finite weighted graphs
15:11 < saxo> "In mathematics, calculus on finite weighted graphs is a discrete calculus for functions whose domain is the vertex set of a graph with a finite number of vertices and weights associated to the edges." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_on_finite_weighted_graphs
15:29 < archels_> "In 2015, researchers at The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston found that plants can be a vector for prions. When researchers fed hamsters grass that grew on ground where a deer that died with chronic wasting disease (CWD) was buried, the hamsters became ill with CWD, suggesting that prions can bind to plants, which then take them up into the leaf and stem structure, where they
15:29 < archels_> can be eaten by herbivores, thus completing the cycle. It is thus possible that there is a progressively accumulating number of prions in the environment."
15:43 < lsneff> .t https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
15:43 < saxo> [1204.1749] Robust Soldier Crab Ball Gate
15:58 < fltrz> does anyone know if pharma companies are required to publish their internal research when developing a vaccine before they can sell it in a jurisdiction?
16:00 < fltrz> i.e. theres lots of papers on sars-cov-2, and bunch of papers of results in clinical trials, but I have a hard time finding their "in house" experiments, where I would expect governments to require access to the methodologies and experimental results before starting trials on animals and humans
16:22 < lsneff> .t https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.10080
16:22 < saxo> [2005.10080] A proof of P!=NP
16:25 < lsneff> PA is a peano arithmetic, btw
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16:47 < maaku> Looks like Ballast Bill will be the next NASA Administrator :(
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16:53 < L29Ah> .t https://muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt/
16:53 < saxo> Is systemd an NSA attempt? — muchweb's home page
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16:56 < L29Ah> bitcoin ♥, i hope it takes over the world
16:57 < L29Ah> fixed-supply currencies are great, economists who think otherwise are central banks' sockpuppets
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18:02 < lsneff> I wonder if large enough fullerenes formed in a vacuum would be lighter than air and therefore could be used for dirigibles.
18:03 < nmz787_> they'd probably get filled with air or collapse and break
18:04 < lsneff> Depends on how large they'd have to be
18:04 < lsneff> I'm not sure what effective size a fullerene would half
18:04 < lsneff> *have
18:04 < lsneff> With all the imfs
18:05 < lsneff> I'm talking about a bunch of microscopic fullerenes
18:05 < L29Ah> i doubt O2 can get past a graphene layer
18:05 < L29Ah> H2 though...
18:06 < L29Ah> .t https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10641229608001565
18:06 < L29Ah>  Consideration of Hyper-Giant Fullerenes as Possible Lighter-Than-Air Solids
18:09 < lsneff> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/sbgJqbse/10641229608001565+%281%29.pdf
18:09 < lsneff> Here's the pdf without a paywall
18:11 < L29Ah> tl;dr: too hard w/o atomically precise diamondoid production
18:13 < lsneff> Jeez, fullerenes are much denser than I thought
18:13 < lsneff> Small ones are more than a thousand times too dense
18:14 < lsneff> of topic, but does saxo have a scihub search
18:17 < L29Ah> omg apparently obtaining a tourist visa for USA is harder than immigrating there for a programming job :/
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18:45 < lsneff> not sure it's a great time to come to the states as a tourist right now
18:47 < L29Ah> well, if i begin the preparations now, i will probably get the visa after 10 months or so...
18:47 < L29Ah> lsneff: why though?
18:49 < lsneff> the virus mostly, but that only a few months left probably
18:49 < lsneff> any particular places you're planning on seeing?
18:50 < L29Ah> i'm vaccinated so i'm probably going to be fine; the selection of attractions might be limited tho
18:52 < L29Ah> mostly wanted to see my friend in Austin (and Texas itself), another friend in Boston (and Boston!), and check out FSP's libertarian utopia in NH
18:55 < lsneff> Boston is great, you'll like it
18:55 < lsneff> I lived in that area for 15 years
19:44 < maaku> L29Ah: not just risk of getting infected; most touristy things are closed, restaurants are take-out only, etc.
20:15 < abetusk> I'm still confused about the halving of Bitcoin. It seems like there's consensus that it's meant as a deflationary measure? But then why are 'steady-state' transaction fees constant after all coins have been mined? If it is meant as a deflationary measure, why not some other function than exponential decrease (linear, power law, etc.)?
20:17 < abetusk> My interpretation on this is that Bitcoin wants to get to a steady-state, no inflation scenario with only a fixed number of coin and fixed transaction fees but to incentivize adoption, it has this halving mechanism to reward early adopters
20:20 < abetusk> As an aside, I would like to point out that global energy usage grows at a rate of 2.25% to 2.5%. I don't claim any deep understanding but my current understanding of inflation is that the reason 2% is picked (in the US) is to effectively make a 'loan' to the public with an interest rate of 2% with the hopes it will be used to further energy usage endeavors at a rate of return of 2.25% to 2.5%
20:21 < abetusk> s/deflationary/inflationary/
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20:48 < jrayhawk> what transaction fees are constant?
21:19 < abetusk> jrayhawk, after all coins have been mined, transaction fees do not get halved by the protocol. So, apologies, they don't stay constant, necessarily, but they aren't altered by the protocol
21:45 < jrayhawk> it doesn't reward early adopters, it rewards those who secure the forward progress of the ledger
21:47 < jrayhawk> oh, sorry, misread that
21:51 < jrayhawk> you could frame it as rewarding early adopters; the more outside-view way to think of it is that an inflationary bitcoin would get outcompeted for early adoption by a copy of bitcoin that removes the inflation
21:51 < jrayhawk> or, at least, unlimited inflation would get outcompeted by limited inflation
21:51 < fltrz> abetusk, block reward and transaction fees are 2 different types of reward the miner scores. Yes my interpretation is block reward is to drive early adopters, no transaction fees do not stay constant (a miner chooses to include or exclude a transaction at his own discretion); I *suspect* the discrete steps in block reward halving (instead of exponential decline, the continuous equivalent of halving every X blocks) is to cause occasional btc price
21:51 < fltrz> rises, so that non-investors keep hearing reminders at a regular pace that the value increased again... its a market AB-X JND thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-noticeable_difference#Marketing_applications if it was smooth and continuous it wouldn't repeatedly trigger JND of those not yet involved
21:53 < jrayhawk> probably because it's very simple to implement a discrete halvening, but there are a lot of parameters in bitcoin that are chosen for incredibly subtle reason only satoshi and maybe six other people understand
21:53 < fltrz> block reward (ignoring discrete or continuous) is actually there for 2 reasons: to reward early adopters; but also to simply distribute the currency: if satoshi initialized all the currency to be his own at the start nobody would adopt it; he needed a way to fairly distribute it, but lacked a non-gameable sybil-free mechanism, and resorted to the same feature he used for timestamping, a brute force race
21:54 < fltrz> btw I am not satoshi, so take my interpretation with a grain of salt
21:54  * fltrz looks around nervously
21:55 < fltrz> *his or her or their own
21:56 < fltrz> abetusk, did you book progress on breaking RSA with my tips?
21:59 < fltrz> abetusk, also rounding on different platforms means discrete halving prevents forking due to potential discrepancies in float arithmetic
22:05 < fltrz> fenn, if your threat model includes adversaries with wormholes / time machines, you're not coming up with an improvement on average rent anyway, so from a comparative perspective it doesn't provide an excuse not to implement average rent
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22:44 < abetusk> fltrz, no, your tips were sufficiently vague that I just kind of ignored them
22:49 < fltrz> you should try plotting clockwise / not clockwise as a function of exponent in some low product of primes ring: say 5*7 (or others); so clockwise(A*(B^(i-1),A*(B^(i),A*(B^(i+1))) as a function of i; for suitable combinations of A,B you will discover that it can produce simple square waves with period related to euler totient (which is supposed to be secret / infeasible to determine). since its a simple binary output function you can quickly find the
22:49 < fltrz> rising and falling edges
22:50 < fltrz> thus derive the euler totient, thus derive the factorization
22:53 < fltrz> with small products you can easily discover such A and B; but for larger numbers you need extra secret sauce / insight on why specifically those A,B work and how to find suitable A and B for larger products
22:55 < abetusk> so why be coy, why not just come out with it?
22:56 < fltrz> I'm confident you'll notice it works in small products, but that you won't discover easily how to systematically find suitable A,B for larger ones
22:56 < abetusk> but you're saying you have secret sauce to find suitable a,b for large products?
22:57 < fltrz> also, I don't believe I'm alone: beginning with crypto you think you strike gold if you can break it; but in practice you can't really use the knowledge anonymously. you can only use it as a dead man switch to be left alone
22:57 < fltrz> yep
22:58 < fltrz> one (or at least me) only discovers that breaking crypto doesn't pay, and the maximum value is just self protection
22:59 < fltrz> (I wouldn't even start divulging without generalizing to other crypto system)
23:00 < abetusk> I mean, I'm not willing to discount the possibility that you've cracked integer factoring, as my strong leaning is that it's polynomial time feasible, but it's a pretty extraordinary claim. A person with a certain type of morality would be able to profit off of cracking nsa but even if what you say is true, why not publish? Why not show the world?
23:01 < fltrz> you lose your dead man switch
23:01 < fltrz> also, cracking nsa leaves traces, breaking a specific primitive doesn't make one all powerful
23:01 < abetusk> My bet is that what's closer to the truth is that you've probably rediscovered some shortcomings of nsa by being able to identify easily factorable numbers. Let me ask this, your method works even for p,q s.t. phi(p)/2 and phi(q)/2 are also prime?
23:02 < fltrz> oh with nsa you mean rsa
23:02 < abetusk> whoops, sorry, yes, rsa
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