--- Log opened Wed Jun 01 00:00:39 2022
00:04 < fenn> but the state did it so it's not -punk
00:17 < maaku> fenn: I had the same knee-jerk reaction
00:18 < maaku> the name is still way too earth-centric
00:18 < maaku> besides who needs terraforming when you've got material to make trillions of O'Neil colonies?
00:20 < maaku> but in terms of the content he describes, this is just the "space development" community which grew around Gerard O'Neill in the 1970's and never went away
00:42 < maaku> fenn: wow this is the first time I've ever encountered someone who's heard of the millennial project
00:43 < maaku> that was a very transformative book for me.
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05:08 < muurkha> 23:42 < fenn> "Solaris chronicles the ultimate futility of attempted communications with the extraterrestrial life inhabiting a distant 
05:08 < muurkha>               alien"
05:09 < muurkha> yes, that's how I felt about CDE and NIS+ too
05:11 < muurkha> kanzure: no, "things going wrong" is called "conflict".  stories need conflict to entertain, not necessarily conflict resolution
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05:55 < kanzure> fenn: we wrote that collaboratively with the coauthors
05:55 < kanzure> i think...
05:57 < muurkha> possibly "ocean mineralization" doesn't mean "seacrete".  making seacrete releases carbon dioxide; it doesn't sequester it
05:58 < muurkha> I inferred iron fertilization
05:59 < kanzure> https://github.com/timschmidt/replimat
06:01 < muurkha> seacrete also lowers the pH of the ocean for the same reason: the anode produces hydroxyls that get captured in the minerals produced, while the cathode produces hydroniums that just go floating freely around
06:01 < kanzure> maaku: we used to hear from eric hunting a lot, he was running/moderating "the millennial project 2.0" group/website/wiki/thing. https://tmp2.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page
06:06 < muurkha> hmm, I seem to have accidentally omitted my notes on seacrete from Derctuo
06:08 < muurkha> oh, it's in Dernocua
06:09 < muurkha> notes/freezer-seacrete.html in the .tar.gz, p. 779 in the PDF
06:10 < muurkha> http://canonical.org/~kragen/dernocua/
06:13 < muurkha> in particular it includes a detailed tracking of plagiarism in Johra et al. 02021 from the Global Coral Reef Alliance FAQ, and specifically the text that was plagiarized explains this
06:16 < muurkha> but you don't have to take their word for it; you can verify it both by balancing the chemical equations and by experiment
06:16 < muurkha> (GCRA is the seacrete promotion foundation)
06:44 < fenn> yeah i used to spend a lot of time on "living universe foundation" mailing list (luf-team) which was a fan club of the millennial project, trying to implement the ideas in the book
06:45 < fenn> i think i found the mailing list first and read the book later
06:46 < fenn> erik hunting was sort of the driving force, by the time i had joined everybody else had left and gotten on with their lives
06:46 < fenn> eric hunting*
06:46 < muurkha> (seacrete can be a usable material under some circumstances, but it's not as cheap and quick as was initially reported)
06:47 < muurkha> there were some experimental errors in the initial experiments in the 01970s that reported accretion rates an order of magnitude too high
06:47 < muurkha> which produced a great deal of excitement
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06:48 < muurkha> it's *also* easy to screw up the experiments in such a way that you don't get any usable material at all; GCRA's website chronicles some cases where they, for example, hooked up the electrodes backwards
06:49 < fenn> doh
06:49 < muurkha> Dernocua outlines some possible avenues to higher coulombic efficiency, one of the most powerful of which is not using seawater
06:50 < muurkha> obviously that makes large-scale experiments a lot more expensive
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06:55 < muurkha> it suggests for example using a saturated calcium chloride solution under pressure with a lot of CO₂ dissolved in the water, or a saturated magnesium chloride solution, with in either case the anode embedded in sand so that the mineral thus formed cements the sand together
06:57 < muurkha> in theory this gives you both faster growth (because most of the volume is sand rather than newly formed mineral) and higher strength (because the sand composite material is a concrete and is much stronger than the cementing mineral alone)
06:57 < muurkha> I haven't tried it
06:58 < L29Ah> if you have pure-ish Ca/MgCl, you could as well buy some proper portlandcement for cheaper
06:58 < muurkha> it doesn't have to be very pure
06:58 < muurkha> it's just that seawater is 1.1% sodium, 0.13% magnesium, and 0.04% calcium
06:59 < muurkha> so the majority of your anode current gets wasted on sodium
06:59 < muurkha> as I understand it
07:00 < muurkha> so even if you can lower the Na:Mg ratio from 6:1 to 3:1 you should get a nice boost in coulombic efficiency
07:01 < muurkha> also, having so much water increases the resistance of the solution undesirably
07:01 < L29Ah> i don't see any cheap ways to do this
07:01 < muurkha> you don't see any cheap ways to remove some of the salt from seawater?
07:01 < L29Ah> maybe membranes or ion-exchange resins
07:02 < L29Ah> yes
07:02 < L29Ah> some of Na, you mean
07:02 < muurkha> yes
07:02 < muurkha> historically speaking the most common way was to dam up the seawater in shallow ponds and let the sun evaporate it
07:03 < muurkha> that's still an economically competitive production technology, but nowadays we also have other desalination approaches that are several times as energy-efficient
07:04 < muurkha> once the NaCl starts to crystallize out you're lowering the Na:Mg ratio
07:05 < muurkha> if you wait until it's mostly crystallized out, the syrupy bitter supernatant is mostly water and MgCl₂; saltmakers call it "bitterns"
07:06 < muurkha> I think it might have been you personally that helped me find bulk prices on CaCl₂ in Russia a couple of years ago
07:06 < muurkha> and IIRC they were about an order of magnitude cheaper than portland
07:07 < muurkha> but much less pure materials should suffice
07:10 < L29Ah> maybe it's just that cement is an order of magnitude cheaper in .ru as well
07:10 < L29Ah> but ok
07:11 < L29Ah> quick googling suggests prices start from $50 a ton
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12:12 < maaku> fenn: I wish the millennial project / living universe foundation had dropped the seasteading bit and just focused on space settlement
12:13 < maaku> it always seemed a bit non sequitur
12:14 < kanzure> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/how-extropian-quest-for-digital-cash-secured-our-trips-to-the-stars
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12:19 < heath> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1366540/Dyson_Sphere_Program/ <- TIL there's a game around this concept
12:20 < heath> the article on  extropian quest for digital cash is nice
12:23 < muurkha> L29Ah: US$50 a tonne for bulk calcium chloride?  surely not for portland cement
12:24 < L29Ah> muurkha: for portland cement
12:24 < L29Ah> i don't remember the price for CaCl2
12:24 < muurkha> that's a lot cheaper than I expected
13:14 < nmz787> does anyone know of some cheap-ish (cheaper than asphalt/gravel/concrete) material that could be laid down and then hardened in place, allowing it to remain porous?
13:15 < nmz787> something involving lasers or microwaves has been in my mind for a while
13:15 < nmz787> like selective laser sintering, but along a roadbed
13:18 < nmz787> (originally I was thinking of gravel, then getting lasered/microwaved/etc such that the places where rocks touched would be bonded, leaving the porousity largely intact (so when used as a roadbed, it would remain draining and not contribute to flood potential)
13:19 < L29Ah> nmz787: solar sinter
13:19 < nmz787> yeah the idea is partially inspired by that
13:19 < L29Ah> need a huge ass fresnel lens and some mechatronics
13:19 < nmz787> galvos?
13:19 < nmz787> idk if they could handle the needed mirror
13:20 < nmz787> since doing a 8ft wide road/path is probably the goal
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16:59 < kanzure> cache misses as a sidechannel attack https://www.hindawi.com/journals/scn/2021/5559552/
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19:01 < kanzure> "Image restoration from a sequence of random masks" https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Image%20restoration%20from%20a%20sequence%20of%20random%20masks.pdf
19:04 < kanzure> "Puzzle imaging: Using large-scale dimensionality reduction algorithms for localization" https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Puzzle%20imaging:%20Using%20large-scale%20dimensionality%20reduction%20algorithms%20for%20localization%20-%202015.pdf
19:06 < kanzure> "Randomized apertures: high resolution imaging in far field" https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-25-15-18296&id=370048
19:08 < kanzure> .wik ptychography
19:08 < saxo> "Ptychography (/t(ʌ)ɪˈkogræfi/ t(a)i-KO-graf-ee[citation needed]|) is a computational method of microscopic imaging. It generates images by processing many coherent interference patterns that have been scattered from an object of interest." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptychography
19:18 < kanzure> http://publish.illinois.edu/saptarshibandyopadhyay/files/2021/08/Sinigaglia-Optimal-Transport-Based-Control-of-Particle-Swarms-for-Orbiting-Rainbows-Concept.pdf
19:25 < kanzure> .wik gravitational microlensing
19:25 < saxo> "Gravitational microlensing is an astronomical phenomenon due to the gravitational lens effect. It can be used to detect objects that range from the mass of a planet to the mass of a star, regardless of the light they emit." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_microlensing
19:33 < kanzure> "Speckle imaging through the atmosphere" https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989sita.rept.....B/abstract
19:33 < kanzure> slightly different concept for correcting optical images through the atmosphere based on multiple samples
19:35 < kanzure> .wik speckle imaging
19:35 < saxo> "Speckle imaging describes a range of high-resolution astronomical imaging techniques based on the analysis of large numbers of short exposures that freeze the variation of atmospheric turbulence." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speckle_imaging
19:38 < kanzure> "Compressive 3d ultrasound imaging using a single sensor" https://pure.tudelft.nl/ws/files/38855819/e1701423.full.pdf
19:56 < kanzure> docl: could this be used to image the dinosaurs?
20:03 < kanzure> you could also use it for scanning for evidence of time travel eg the image you get back from 100 ly distance indicates that something happened that you have direct evidence didn't happen
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 02 00:00:40 2022