--- Log opened Wed Jul 06 00:00:12 2022
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04:41 < L29Ah> https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/ there were multiple links to Nassim Taleb's obituaries but they have vanished >:O
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05:27 < kanzure> so your message is an obituary about some obituaries?
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05:33 < L29Ah> yes
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05:46 < kanzure> "lecture notes on cryptography" (2008) https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/Lecture%20notes%20on%20cryptography%20-%20Goldwasser%20-%20Bellare%20-%202008.pdf
05:47 < kanzure> institute for advanced study's website https://www.ias.edu/ideas
06:02 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/johndmcmaster/status/1544435797511659522
06:02 < saxo> How we fixed EDS (elemental analysis on SEM) // Background: EDS works by measuring x-rays emitted after an electron strikes and fluoresces an atom. Each element has characteristic wavelengths it emits allowing an element to be identified via spectroscopy https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FW7vpnJUYAEwIBf.jpg (@johndmcmaster)
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06:51 < kanzure> Muaddib: What makes for a more productive company- having everyone in an open office on land or everyone be in a tiny box at the bottom of the ocean?
06:51 < Muaddib> kanzure: It depends on the company's purpose. For some it may be better to have their workers in an open office on land so that communication is better between people who are working on the same project or who might have a similar issue, or someone whose knowledge may benefit your problem solving.
07:08 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=23644828 Bryan Bishop: backref >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/btcpp/2022/bitcoin-core-wallet-improvements/
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13:01 < fenn> pasky_: can i talk to your bots on IRC?
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13:01 < fenn> oh derp
13:01 < fenn> nevermind. /me reads
13:05 < fenn> Muaddib: please make a list of interesting aesthetic styles
13:05 < Muaddib> fenn: cokehead-style-guide, shabby-chic, sleazy-rm-style, hillbilly-style-guide, and my personal favorite, the junk-food-style-guide
13:05 < fenn> bam! instant creativity!
13:06 < fenn> Muaddib: please make a list of classy architectural styles
13:06 < Muaddib> fenn: The "let's build a hole in the ground and live in it" style of architecture.
13:06 < fenn> Muaddib: i'm on the right track
13:06 < Muaddib> fenn: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of your awesomeness.
13:07 < fenn> pasky_: well, it's funny, but i'd love to have a bog standard AI to use as a tool
13:07 < fenn> (as well)
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13:31 < L29Ah> Muaddib: why isn't there a house built of living bamboo?
13:31 < Muaddib> L29Ah: because that would be freakin' awesome.
13:31 < L29Ah> Muaddib: how to build a house out of living bamboo?
13:31 < Muaddib> L29Ah: that's outside my area of expertise. I'm just here for the witty banter
13:32 < L29Ah> Muaddib: how much energy does it take to produce seacrete?
13:32 < Muaddib> L29Ah: more than it takes to produce bamboo, I imagine.
13:32 < fenn> snarky bot
13:33 < fenn> pasky_: it'd be neat if the conversation not directed at Muaddib went into its context state somehow, even if it doesn't stimulate a response
13:33 < fenn> pasky_: so he's still "listening" if not participating in the conversation
13:34 < fenn> pasky_: it could be as simple as using the last few lines from the channel as part of the prompt (assuming they weren't included in the previous prompts)
13:48 < L29Ah> Muaddib: what prompt is he talking about?
13:48 < Muaddib> L29Ah: the one with the ">"
13:48 < L29Ah> Muaddib: last few lines from where?
13:49 < Muaddib> L29Ah: from irc
14:28 < kanzure> "A time-resolved, multi-symbol molecular recorder via sequential genome editing" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04922-8
14:31 < pasky_> join("\n", @context_until_last_message) . "\n\nBut $mynick follows up with a single surprisingly witty comeback that makes me laugh... :)\n\n$last\n<$mynick> $nick:";
14:31 < pasky_> is the current prompt (i still tweak it a bit every few days or so, but feels fairly converged by now)
14:32 < pasky_> (the context is 5 previous messages on the channel, <$nick> $message format)
14:32 < pasky_> (if you want raw gpt3 without a weird prompt, you can just make an openai account and use its playground directly)
14:55 < kanzure> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/06/space-bubble-shield-to-reflect-the-sun/
14:55 < kanzure> "astronomer Roger Angel, who proposed the bubble-raft"
14:56 < kanzure> https://senseable.mit.edu/space-bubbles/
14:59 < kanzure> no pdf?
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15:40 < kanzure> https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs/Haskell.html
15:45 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/ToughSf/status/1187342474181672960
15:45 < saxo> Grover Swartzlander from @exploreplanets has proposed solar sails using diffraction, instead of reflection. The advantage is that they can accelerate in directions impossible for a reflective sail, but are less efficient overall. / https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1805/1805.05864.pdf / https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/niac/2019_Phase_I_Phase_II/Diffractive_Lightsails/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHVw-QVWoAE0trF.jpg https
15:45 < kanzure> https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2022/06/07/solar-sailing-the-beauties-of-diffraction/
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15:52 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_muwDK38SQ&t=3040s
15:52 < saxo> Colloquium: David Shafer - Highlights of my 51 Years in Optical Design - YouTube
15:52 < Muaddib> [7_muwDK38SQ] Colloquium: David Shafer - Highlights of my 51 Years in Optical Design (58:54)
16:44 < fenn> ok braindump time
16:44  * fenn sweeps the floor clean
16:44  * fenn puts on white cotton gloves
16:44 < fenn> sorry if i spill any beans that weren't meant to be spilled
16:45 < fenn> this weeend i met a top notch biochemist at the shulgin research institute. he doesn't officially work there, it was just a 4th of july social bbq for members of the community.
16:45 < fenn> weekend*
16:48 < fenn> his name is tom nufert and he goes way back at UC berkeley and founding a few biotech/instrument companies in the bay area. he mentored under people like Schwartz who discovered that Selenium is an essential nutrient, and developed something like a cure for diabetes (my words) based on chromium
16:50  * L29Ah injects some hexavalent chromium into fenn
16:50 < fenn> i offered to drive him home, not knowing anything about him, since i had spare room in my car and the party was winding down, and he invited me up into his apartment. the first thing i noticed was walls full of books about biochemistry, nutrition, organic chemistry. the second thing i noticed was his nametag with the company listed as "Younger Phenotype" which caught my attention
16:53 < fenn> this is his third or fourth company, i guess. it's superficially about selling a joint pain relief cream called "ache relief" http://ache-relief.com but really they are trying to understand and develop therapies to stop and reverse aging
16:53 < L29Ah> https://i0.wp.com/youngerphenotype.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Black-Box-Silde-Corrected-Oct-28-2020.jpg?fit=960%2C720&ssl=1 lol
16:55 < fenn> ache relief uses a copper leucine chelate in emulsion to deliver copper to the skin. the goal of this is to activate an enzyme called lysyl oxidase, which converts procollagen in the extracellular matrix into collagen by stitching together sulfhydryl bonds of neighboring procollagen molecules, making an interlinked network with good mechanical properties. copper is a cofactor of the enzyme
16:56 < fenn> they're planning on getting into the field of "med esthetics" i.e. having a doctor prescribe drugs to make your skin appearance look better, but a majority of their testimonials are about joint pain relief (sciatica, complex regional pain syndrome)
16:56 < fenn> .wik lysyl oxidase
16:56 < saxo> "Lysyl oxidase (LOX), also known as protein-lysine 6-oxidase, is an enzyme that, in humans, is encoded by the LOX gene. It catalyzes the conversion of lysine molecules into highly reactive aldehydes that form cross-links in extracellular matrix proteins." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysyl_oxidase
17:00 < kanzure> so they are doing the "make a spinoff that is profitable/has revenue along the way on the longer journey" thing, or is skin youthfulness their goal
17:00 < fenn> tom thinks copper deficiency plays a huge role in aging. he pointed out that complex IV in the mitochondrial electron transport chain uses 4 copper ions to complete the process of oxidative metabolism. i asked if this complex goes out of whack and starts spewing oxygen radicals, but he answered no. (i'm trying to remember the answer)
17:01 < fenn> kanzure: the skin cream thing is mostly a way to generate quick revenue, since getting VC money when your founder has cancer is very difficult
17:05 < fenn> his cofounder david kreimer invented a way to boost the signal to noise ratio of raman spectrometry by, i wanna say 8 orders of magnitude ("years" of integration time, to "seconds") by making a "bio chip" which binds to the molecule to be sensed and holds it in the center of a "fractal antenna" made of clumps of silver nanoparticles. the bio-chip has many tiny regions which bind specific
17:05 < fenn> molecules of interest. they made a company "array biotechnologies" (NOT the same company that makes DNA chips) but some sort of hostile internal corporate takeover bankruptcy thing happened and the IP got buried under lawyers
17:06 < fenn> i guess this raman spectrometry technology is out of patent? or nobody cares about it?
17:09 < fenn> he was saying the instrument cost $100k and they were doing a "razor blade model" with the sensor chips, cartridges with mylar film. the primary breakout market would be for detecting periodontal disease by spitting into a test tube
17:10 < fenn> but i expect one could build a decent raman spectrometer for under $1k
17:10 < fenn> (i guess $100k for an instrument is considered cheap?)
17:11 < fenn> anyway multiple orders of magnitude performance improvement just sitting on a shelf because lawyers
17:11 < fenn> brb
17:18 < fenn> i guess what surprised me was the degree to which his information was preserved in paper format
17:18 < fenn> literally boxes of journal articles from the 1940s through 1960s cut out of journals with writing on them
17:21 < fenn> anyway. he said "it's been long enough that steve probably wouldn't mind" and showed me the confidential white paper for another company, nanopolymer systems, which was written by steve fowkes. there's probably 30 broad patents worth of stuff in there, assuming they can get the basic chemistry to work. the basic idea is to make a sterically constrained molecule out of a backbone of aromatic
17:21 < fenn> rings, so you don't have a floppy horrible complex thing like a protein, but you can create uniquely specified materials by combining a particular set of building blocks
17:25 < L29Ah> 01:55:16]<fenn> ache relief uses a copper leucine chelate in emulsion to deliver copper to the skin.
17:25 < L29Ah> so the label is a lie?
17:28 < L29Ah> if some technology is buried under lawyers then it's free to implement elsewhere as lawyers don't have a clue how to identify that someone actually uses it
17:29 < L29Ah> damn i could use some raman spectroscope
17:31 < fenn> why do you say the label is a lie?
17:31 < L29Ah> because it says there's one active ingredient, and it's menthol
17:31 < fenn> oh, right
17:32 < fenn> yes
17:33 < L29Ah> sus thing but i have no clue, maybe it is the only legal-ish way to go for a garage-scale pharma in US, as pushing new drugs properly costs a fortune these days
17:35 < fenn> here's a 12 minute video overview of nanopolymer systems technology, describing how the molecular "tiles" interlock to create unique shapes/structures/patterns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE1Syq2iy-E
17:35 < Muaddib> [fE1Syq2iy-E] Tile Schematic Movie (PowerPoint to HD-MP4) (11:34)
17:36 < fenn> the monomers are linked by two bonds, which constrains their rotation. i mentioned this reminded me of christian schafmeister's "Spiroligomer" concept and he's like "schafmeister?! i had him simulate our chemistry a long time ago, he must have gotten the idea from us"
17:36 < fenn> and the dates check out, nanopolymer systems was around 2005, schafmeister got started on spiroligomers after that
17:37 < fenn> i can't be bothered about who "owns" the idea, but it's interesting that he was at least inspired by them
17:38 < fenn> but their chemistry doesn't really work in the end, it makes chaotic random goop instead of a specific structure/pattern. i suggested using a blocking group and stepwise addition like in traditional DNA synthesis reactions, to force the "tile" to finish reacting on both bonds before the next tile is added. otherwise the tiles are flopping around while being added to, which isn't what you want
17:39 < fenn> (i also suggested doing molecular simulations and reaction simulations)
17:39 < L29Ah> no instrumental data on patients are provided among the ache relief marketing spew 
17:40 < fenn> that's right, they don't have any real evidence
17:40 < fenn> i was skeptical as well
17:41 < L29Ah> “… astonished to find that pain was greatly reduced! …lower back (sciatica, sacroiliitis), hip (trochanteric bursitis), cervical spine, shoulder (rotator cuff), wrists, and thumbs… amazing results repeatedly with my hip, cervical spine, shoulder, wrists, and thumbs. …“bone-on-bone” arthritis of the knee … Now I walk several miles a day without pain or discomfort and without a cane!” 
17:41 < L29Ah> that'd be quite a breakthrough if it indeed usefully repaired knee cartillages
17:42 < L29Ah> so 90% it's a snake oil and he's profiting off it trying to sell something questionable next
17:42 < fenn> the main nanopolymer guy, steve fowkes, was on piracetam and according to tom nufert this made him "very sharp, quick, ready to go into debate mode at the drop of a hat, and intellectually imposing even to professors" and related some stories about that. tom nufert seemed to think that piracetam caused anger, and i was surprised to hear this. he was surprised it wasn't common knowledge. he also
17:43 < L29Ah> computer tomography doesn't cost that much
17:43 < fenn> had never heard of co-supplementing choline with piracetam.
17:43 < fenn> CT can't see soft tissue changes really
17:44 < L29Ah> cartilages aren't soft tissues
17:45 < L29Ah> and you can see the distance between bones at worst
17:45 < fenn> i mentioned vytas sunspiral's theory of "biotensegrity" as the way human joints actually work. the idea is that ligaments suspend the bone structures as if being held from a crane, so that in normal operation the surfaces of the joints never actually touch. when collagen metabolism is disrupted, it would make sense that the ligaments would get weaker and the joint surfaces come into contact,
17:45 < fenn> causing irritation
17:46 < fenn> in other words, a knee joint is not just a mechanical hinge, it's a completely different mechanism, and only becomes a simple hinge in the case of malfunction
17:46 < L29Ah> still doesn't matter
17:48 < fenn> https://www.magicalrobot.org/BeingHuman/2010/04/introduction-to-biotensegrity
17:49 < fenn> when was your last CT scan L29Ah?
17:49 < L29Ah> a few years ago
17:49 < fenn> is it something you get done regularly for general health monitoring?
17:49 < L29Ah> nah
17:50 < L29Ah> xrays aren't healthy
17:50 < fenn> how about MRIs then
17:50 < fenn> look, i'm sure they'd love to have that kind of data, but it's an unfunded startup
17:50 < L29Ah> did a cancer-screening MRI 16 months ago
17:51 < fenn> i'm pretty sure that is officially discouraged in the US
17:51 < L29Ah> cost me ~$100 back then
17:51  * L29Ah officially encourages this
17:51 < fenn> i also think it's a good idea. it's more like $2-3k in the US
17:52 < L29Ah> US is famous with its exorbitant medical costs
17:52 < fenn> we (hplusroadmap) were trying to do lab validation of some random projects/idea in ukraine, but that's not really feasible right now
17:53 < L29Ah> why not? only air logistics is wrecked
17:54 < fenn> maybe i'm bullshitting
17:54  * L29Ah did some MRIs in Kyiv as well, cost me $25 per knee or smth like that back then in 2015
17:54 < fenn> kanzure have you been in contact with the contract lab in ukraine recently?
17:57 < fenn> tom is on a testosterone reducing regimen due to his cancer, and he thinks it's really awful and making him more weak and vulnerable to falls due to muscle loss. i tried to get him to look into myostatin inhibitors, but apparently they aren't ready yet, still in clinical trials. maybe he could get into a trial. he got distracted with GDF11 and its ability to stimulate skeletal growth. i mentioned
17:57 < fenn> that some guy was self-injecting GDF11 with apparently no harmful effects, after the recent mouse parabiosis longevity experiments
18:04 < fenn> tom was also very intent on impressing upon me the importance of a ketogenic diet, at least intermittently. he showed me how glial cell function improved (incorporation of fatty acids into neurons was 5-10x faster) when running on ketone bodies (BHB/AcAc) vs glucose
18:05 < fenn> iirc he thought ketone metabolism was important for tanning instead of getting sunburn (i'm super pale and we were at the pool)
18:05 < fenn> a lot of people have been telling me about keto lately
18:06  * L29Ah is pale because he decidedly hides from ionizing radiation
18:06 < fenn> as a sugar addict, i find this all unreasonable
18:06 < fenn> same
18:06 < L29Ah> as a sugar addict i find i run on starch about as well
18:06 < L29Ah> but it seems like sugar is a short-term mild psychostimulant
18:07 < fenn> i don't have an irrational fear of other forms of ionizing radiation the way most do, so perhaps i should reconsider my stance on UV. it's disappointing the dermatologists have gone so far in the cover-your-ass direction that it's impossible to get actual safety data about solar UV dose vs risk
18:07 < TMA> based on the current spam campaigns, keto diets are very popular now (along with cannabis as a panacea)
18:07 < fenn> apparently the atkins diet goes back to the 1970s? i only heard about it in 2005 ish
18:07 < L29Ah> i hear about keto even from covid conspiracists
18:08 < fenn> according to tom the atkins diet has too much protein and doesn't reliably induce ketogenesis due to gluconeogenesis
18:08 < fenn> not a high enough percentage of fat calories
18:08 < fenn> let's not engage in logical fallacies please
18:08 < L29Ah> still too lazy to experiment on switching to diesel fuel myself
18:09 < fenn> i'm worried that if i try to do keto i will bonk and be mentally useless, and i can't afford that right now
18:09 < kanzure> fenn: not recently, i should check in on them soon
18:09 < L29Ah> getting a 6-to-3 ratio is tricky, and palm oil has a surprising amount of fear aura around it
18:10 < L29Ah> today i get omega-3 from bitter flaxseed oil, and this sucks
18:10 < L29Ah> need to figure out how to press flaxseed myself soon
18:10 < L29Ah> coffee grinders can't handle it
18:10 < fenn> there might be something to "saturated fat is bad" - iirc magnesium and calcium get coordinated by long chain fatty acids and precipitate out at internal body temperatures as something like soap scum. this would reduce the bioavailability of magnesium in the gut, leading to magnesium deficiency and thus heart disease
18:10 < L29Ah> no specialized presses readily available in my village
18:10 < fenn> fuck flax seed
18:10 < L29Ah> why?
18:11 < fenn> the only reason someone would use flax seed instead of fish oil is vegan propaganda
18:11 < L29Ah> fish oil is even harder to get intact
18:12 < fenn> and very rarely does anyone appreciate how fragile it is and treat it gently enough (refrigeration, UV light, etc)
18:12 < fenn> they're exactly the same
18:12 < L29Ah> yes
18:12 < L29Ah> not exactly
18:12 < fenn> except flax oil is not what brain cells are made from
18:12 < TMA> fenn: my remark was that the "a lot of people have been telling me about keto lately" could be influenced by the general ambient popularity of keto diets
18:12 < L29Ah> DHA is a molecule of concern for me
18:12 < fenn> or prostaglandins, or the other benefits of EPA/DHA specifically (not "omega-3 fats" which is just wrong)
18:12 < L29Ah> there aren't conclusive data if a male body can synthesize enouugh DHA
18:13 < fenn> the answer depends on who is doing the research, which is never a good sign
18:14 < L29Ah> Muaddib: can a human male synthesize enough docosahexaenoic acid for healthy brain maintenance?
18:14 < Muaddib> L29Ah: Is that a way of asking if I'm stupid?
18:14 < L29Ah> Muaddib: yes
18:14 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I'm glad we could have this heart-to-heart talk.
18:14 < L29Ah> Muaddib: you aren't
18:14 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I'm glad we could have this heart-to-heart talk.
18:14 < kanzure> gradstudentbot was better
18:15 < fenn> DHA is also probably involved in preventing insulin resistance (diabetes, alzheimers) by maintaining cell membrane fluidity
18:15 < kanzure> Muaddib: Answer the following question from the perspective of a molecular biology graduate student. can a human male synthesize enough docosahexaenoic acid for healthy brain maintenance?
18:15 < Muaddib> kanzure: sure, just make sure you have enough DHA around.
18:15 < fenn> pasky_: Muaddib should never repeat the same line twice in a row
18:16 < L29Ah> Japan showed the highest total prevalence of AD, with 23.23% and 11.55% in women and men, respectively. The US showed the second-highest total prevalence rates of AD, with 11.64% in women and 7.66% in men.
18:16 < L29Ah> the former are fish-eaters, the latter are mcdonalds-eaters
18:16 < fenn> ok forget i said anything about alzheimers
18:17 < fenn> when supplementing fish oil, i notice a big difference in skin dryness, earwax, scalp oil
18:17 < L29Ah> otoh usanians might just die of a stroke earlier than AD becomes apparent
18:17 < fenn> everything is complicated
18:17 < fenn> japanese people eat way more iodine and soy
18:20 < fenn> natural palm fruit oil has this awful tasting red goop in it, some of which is vitamin A, and some of which *mumble mumble* is a mitochondrial antioxidant
18:20 < fenn> water soluble antioxidants are probably bad for your health, but fat soluble antioxidants probably good? because they stop damage inside the mitochondria?
18:21 < L29Ah> palm oil i've seen in the local supermarkets don't have any red goop, just some faint-yellow slush
18:21 < fenn> there's this giant storm of memes in the supplement industry about "superfoods" and antioxidants, and how awesome they are, despite all the evidence showing that they actually reduce lifespan
18:22 < L29Ah> > water soluble antioxidants are probably bad for your health
18:22 < L29Ah> ascorbic acid is a water-soluble antioxidant, is good and tasty :]
18:22 < fenn> yeah i'm talking about the poor african palm oil, the kind you buy in recycled water bottles
18:22 < fenn> i've seen it in classy mason jars but it's not very popular
18:22 < fenn> i mean, it tastes bad
18:22 < fenn> why would anyone eat it
18:22 < kanzure> .seen yashgaroth
18:22 < saxo> Sorry, no available data
18:22 < L29Ah> all fats taste bad
18:23 < fenn> {{citation needed}}
18:23 < fenn> yeah so religiously dosing on vitamin C every day is probably a bad idea
18:23 < L29Ah> why?
18:24 < fenn> my understanding is that the benefits of exercise are mediated by oxidative stress (some signal molecule cascade starting with oxygen radicals) so without that stress you don't get any exercise, effectively, even though you think you're exercising
18:25 < L29Ah> yes if we're talking strength growth
18:25 < L29Ah> otherwise [citation needed]
18:25 < fenn> as shown by michael ristow
18:25 < fenn> what are the other benefits of exercise
18:25 < fenn> VO2_max, ... ?
18:25 < fenn> i don't even know what to search for
18:26 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_exercise#Health_benefits
18:26 < fenn> also google is effectively broken and i haven't finished setting up my new computer yet, so research is not really possible for me right now
18:26 < L29Ah> how did you break google?
18:26 < fenn> i guess i am done with my brain dump and am just chatting now
18:27  * L29Ah prescribes fenn hanging out or working with that fellow a couple of days a month
18:28 < fenn> what fellow?
18:28 < L29Ah> Tom
18:28 < fenn> oh, right
18:28 < fenn> somehow i read that as "L29Ah prescribes fenn working out with that fellow a couple of days a month"
18:30 < fenn> apparently i just hit my effective max_tab_count too
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 07 00:00:13 2022