--- Log opened Sat Jul 09 00:00:15 2022
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06:04 < catern> okay I'm fairly amazed but I searched the logs and no-one has linked https://freedomofform.org/ yet here?
06:08 < catern> anyway
06:10 < catern> https://freedomofform.org/ mildly interesting since they were able to at least persuade some people to talk to them e.g. https://freedomofform.org/1451/sandberg-mf/
06:11 < catern> and are writing research reports I don't understand https://freedomofform.org/4348/analytical-review-of-integument-research-project-update-may-2022/
06:11 < catern> good luck to them
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07:17 < docl> interesting, hadn't heard of that group
07:38 < kanzure> that used to be called 'morphological freedom'
07:39 < docl> well I've heard of the concept obviously
07:40 < kanzure> .wik morphological freedom
07:40 < saxo> "Morphological freedom refers to a proposed civil right of a person to either maintain or modify their own body, on their own terms, through informed, consensual recourse to, or refusal of, available therapeutic or enabling medical technology. /  The term may have been coined [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphological_freedom
07:42 < docl> I wonder if downloadable drugs / long term neurochemical mods are considered under that rubric
07:50 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/LincolnCannon/status/799341844341497856
07:50 < saxo> “To create better AI, we must be better people.” http://oreil.ly/2fZNoFn (@LincolnCannon)
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08:01 < docl> with the right combination of drugs and incentives, you can change human nature a heck of a lot. scarier than most ideas though
08:09 < docl> or should that be "a human's nature" since we are unique
08:11 < catern> they still call it morphological freedom in their docs
08:14 < docl> hmm, thinking it over a shift in psychology/neuronal characteristics via drug delivery implants, while along similar lines (individual freedom to modify sounds good), doesn't really fit the niche that macro/visible body mods do
08:21 < catern> "freedom of form" is much more poetic, I have to say
08:21 < catern> much easier to say
08:27 < docl> it sounds like an art movement about sculpture or something
08:31 < catern> better term: freedom of movement, the right to choose where you live :>
08:32 < docl> now it's a dance uh, movement
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09:14 < kanzure> freedom brand freedom
10:02 < catern> freedom of substrate
10:19 < muurkha> fenn: thanks for the feedback on revolting foodstuffs
10:19 < muurkha> fenn: also on magnesium deficiency!
10:39 < fenn> thanks for the thanks for the feedback~
10:40 < fenn> could you imagine the shitstorm if freedom of form were promoting modifications in affirmation of "racial identity" instead of "species identity"
10:50 < kanzure> would it be possible to be whiter than white?
10:50 < kanzure> (racially)
10:50 < kanzure> or more human than human?
10:53 < muurkha> isn't that what the whole cosmetics industry is?
11:04 < fenn> elves
11:05 < fenn> greys
11:06 < fenn> this freedom of form thing sounds very expensive to maintain, as a humanoid that has to go to doctors to resolve bodily problems
11:07 < fenn> better to work on replacing the medical system with something sane and sustainable first
11:07 < catern> more human than human: https://qntm.org/millennia
11:08 < kanzure> human biology should be replaced with either solid state or biologies that are more explainable and fixable
11:09 < catern> i think their concern is more aesthetic and near-term
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12:03 < docl> alt biologies will be more durable though. I think an artificial immune system is a low hanging branch: immunity to all infections without any chance of autoimmune disorder
12:08 < docl> developmental biology is another rat's nest of complexity we can / probably kind of need to replace
12:24 < L29Ah> rat king-grade engineering
12:34 < muurkha> rat metropolis
12:34 < muurkha> fenn: your bodily problems are going to kill you anyway, so you might as well enjoy some bodily autonomy into the issue unless you're really shooting for longevity escape velocity
12:36 < L29Ah> barely functional cosmetical furry things vs tiny chance of eternal life
12:36 < L29Ah> Muaddib: barely functional cosmetical furry things or tiny chance of eternal life?
12:36 < Muaddib> L29Ah: which category would humanity fall into?
12:37 < L29Ah> Muaddib: what is the optimal metformin dose regimen for maximizing lifespan?
12:37 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that you're not allowed to ask me that question.
12:38 < catern> L29Ah: don't be too hostile to that barely functional stuff or you'll start sounding like someone talking about "cryonics is stupid, the ice crystals destroy your brain cells"
12:38 < catern> gotta try
12:38 < L29Ah> yeah yeah
12:38  * L29Ah hides in his metformin rat hole
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13:37 < muurkha> possibly of interest to some here: https://www.offlineos.com/
13:45 < catern> muurkha: that's very cool
13:45 < muurkha> yeah!
14:25 < fenn> metformin might extend lifespan by how long? a few years?
14:26 < fenn> muurkha: how did you find that?
14:27 < L29Ah> yes
14:28 < L29Ah> but research on young subjects is lacking 
14:30 < fenn> lsneff: http://www.offlineos.com/libgen-crystal-about.html seems like what you'd want for having all teh bookz on a microSD card
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14:53 < muurkha> strong singularity vibe here: https://simonwillison.net/2022/Jul/9/gpt-3-explain-code/
15:02 < nmz787> muurkha: we don't scoff at eating butter here with a spoon... I think you must be eating terrible butter
15:04 < muurkha> nmz787: hmm, that's surely possible
15:21 < nmz787> by here I meant my house :) 
15:21 < nmz787> my neigbors might scoff ;)
15:22 < nmz787> (but thyey also possibly buy crap butter)
15:22 < muurkha> ew, that's not a flavor of butter I'd recommend
15:26 < nmz787> muurkha: re: "america" the USA has "the american flag". I was thinking about why this might be, historically, and maybe the USA was the first true country that wasn't just a colony of some euro-parent?
15:27 < nmz787> so "the american flag" is short for "the first of the american flags"
15:27 < nmz787> just my mind wandering, haven't looked that up to see if there's any basis
15:27 < muurkha> it's an interesting question, but I don't think that's quite it
15:27 < nmz787> it could also just be team america style "america, fuck yeah" sentiment
15:29 < muurkha> unsurprisingly there's a Wikipedia article about this question
15:29 < muurkha> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_%28word%29#History
15:30 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_(word) gave 404 | Searched en for 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American %28word%29#History' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
15:30 < muurkha> .t
15:30 < saxo> "The meaning of the word American in the English language varies according to the historical, geographical, and political context in which it is used." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_(word)
15:35 < lsneff> fenn: unfortunate that it’s .txt only
15:35 < lsneff> It’s 2022, we can have formatted books
15:38 < muurkha> lsneff: that sounds like a very beneficial project for someone interested to work on
15:44 < muurkha> maybe you should contact the project and offer to do it.  how much do you estimate it would inflate the file size?
15:53 < fenn> it literally says right there that it's 34.4TB before stripping out the non-text data
15:53 < fenn> which is going to be unwieldy for a few more years
16:11 < muurkha> presumably lsneff has in mind something more lightweight than just including all the scanned page images :)
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16:18 < nsh> redbean might go well with offline-os. i wonder if the developers are aware of it
16:22 < muurkha> lsneff: are you thinking something like epub formatting?
16:33 < muurkha> nmz787: I think part of it is that when Jefferson and Washington were writing their stuff, just like Bolívar, they were defining themselves in distinction to their colonial masters with whom they were in constant institutional contact
16:33 < muurkha> rather than in distinction to other European colonists thousands of kilometers away across moderately hazardous territory
16:34 < muurkha> Bolívar famously pledged to liberate the "americanos" from the European yoke, and he sure wasn't talking about North Carolina
16:35 < muurkha> so the salient distinction was Spanish vs. American or English vs. American, not Mexican vs. Virginian
17:03 < L29Ah> Muaddib: is there a GPT trained on LibGen?
17:03 < Muaddib> L29Ah: we haven't released our GPT-3.
17:05 < docl> I don't buy the elon musk scenario where people forget to have kids and humanity dies out. if the population is shrinking without a resource bottleneck, we're talking a strong evolutionary pressure to breed despite whatever is causing the population reduction
17:10 < L29Ah> elon musk just wants more cheap labor
17:11 < docl> any fixed exponential growth rate will eventually hit malthusian conditions. you have to use a decaying exponential (after a certain point -- interstellar civ, max efficiency, etc)
17:18 < muurkha> docl: there are lots of species that fail to reproduce in captivity, especially large mammals like humans
17:18 < muurkha> or that sometimes reproduce but not at above replacement rate
17:20 < muurkha> it's true that in a large captive population like the humans there's an excellent chance for a mutation to arise that is fertile despite the new stresses of captivity
17:20 < docl> is civilization really captivity, by the standards of our genes?
17:21 < docl> I mean, maybe that's what reduces the repro rate of rich people
17:22 < docl> It's not that hard to have 2+ kids though... my parents had 9
17:33 < docl> the other thing is, if dense population resembles captivity, it's a problem that solves itself over time (if we don't cure aging)
17:51 < fenn> docl: it's not that people "forgot" to have kids, its that kids are an economic burden on the parents, and many people aren't in a stable enough economic situation to have kids and be responsible (and so they don't, which is good)
17:52 < fenn> docl: but this creates a demographic bulge where there are less youth around to care for and provide for the elderly. you see this happening in japan now, and it's a trainwreck, especially because they can't import labor due to politics (racism basically)
17:56 < fenn> i feel like i'm supposed to be doing something but i forgot what it is
18:05 < docl> the elderly are also more highly represented in positions of power, in part because the elderly are better at voting. too bad this doesn't apparently lead to increased life extension research
18:16 < fenn> are "the elderly" even proportionally more interested in life extension than average?
18:17 < fenn> i'd guess it's rare for children to care about it, but i personally started thinking about it in my 20's
18:18 < fenn> i could imagine some sort of "life extension burnout" similar to the recently discussed EA burnout
18:19 < fenn> the reason it's rare for children to care about life extension is that there's nobody cheering them on and encouraging interest in it? and it'd be rare to independently come up with the idea yourself
18:19 < fenn> if you go around telling children they're all going to die, you get a visit from the police
18:20 < fenn> even if it IS true
18:20 < fenn> maybe i'll go preach on the nearby university campus
18:22 < fenn> in related news, yesterday i met with the other guy from younger phenotype. he gave a powerpoint presentation (just for me, yay?) about his idea for an industry consortium to standardize and agree on an operational definition and measurement for biological aging
18:23 < fenn> basically he thinks the total lack of progress in the field is due to the inability to measure progress on a meaningful timescale. if it takes a lifetime to know whether you're even on the right track, your scientific career (or treatment choice) is over before you have even made an informed choice about what to do
18:24 < fenn> he showed some slides about how small measurement errors in biological age means you have to spend huge amounts of time to see even heroic effects equivalent to becoming an elite runner
18:25 < fenn> it's basic experiment design really
18:26 < fenn> i was like "of course, that's why we do experiments with many people. n=1 is not enough information to form a valid statistical basis"
18:28 < fenn> unfortunately his response was something unreasonable like "i don't CARE about groups, i care about individuals" which isn't really a rebuttal
18:29 < fenn> he wants to provide personalized anti-aging intervention advice 
18:30 < muurkha> docl: what are the characteristics that distinguish captivity from life in the wild, for example for elephants, pandas, horses, or dogs?
18:31 < fenn> even with hundreds of research participants (lots of data points) you still need a long integration time to detect a small effect on the rate of aging, in the presence of noise/uncertainty
18:31 < fenn> the TAME study (metformin clinical trial for anti-aging) is going to take at least 6 years to complete, primarily because they are using the rate of onset of aging-related diseases as the only measurement
18:31 < muurkha> fenn, agreed
18:34 < fenn> i want to say something about autonomy and freedom of movement
18:35 < fenn> but most animals have some concept of territory which restricts their movements
18:35 < fenn> perhaps "captivity" is just being on the bottom of the dominance hierarchy
18:35 < muurkha> right, not walls but risk of death
18:37 < muurkha> how about where the livestock's food comes from, relations of dominance (aggression with impunity), their interactions with humans, the consequences if they kill a human, neoteny, need for survival instincts to escape danger?
18:38 < fenn> i must have missed the part where this topic of discussion was established
18:39 < muurkha> wild animals are not hemmed in by fences and walls, they forage for their food or hunt it ratehr than being given it by humans, they can engage in aggression against conspecifics with impunity unless they're at the very bottom of a dominance hierarchy, they interact with humans rarely or never, they can kill a human with impunity, they are much less neotenous than domestic animals, and if their 
18:39 < muurkha> survival instincts are weak they will be killed by natural risks such as predation
18:40 < muurkha> animals in captivity, the contrary on every point
18:40 < muurkha> along all of these axes, the humans themselves are more like captive animals than like wild animals
18:41 < fenn> docl: there is no clear line between freedom of thought and bodily autonomy (freedom of substrate) and there never will be
18:41 < fenn> we can't even agree on what's "software" and what's "firmware" and what's "hardware"
18:43 < fenn> muurkha: i'd say the consequences for a wild animal killing a human are pretty much the same as if a domesticated animal kills a human. some guy with a mustache goes and shoots them, usually
18:44 < fenn> unless you're physically restrained, you "can" do anything "with impunity"
18:45 < fenn> the domesticated/wild distinction is more important than the captive/free status
18:47 < fenn> being domesticated confers fitness on an animal inside civilization. a "wild" animal going around attacking people "with impunity" would be utterly crushed by civilization
18:47 < fenn> do wild animals retaliate? i don't actually know
18:48 < fenn> if a "wild" human attacks another "wild" human, the other members of the tribe will retaliate
18:49 < fenn> it all gets a little murky when talking about humans though
18:49 < fenn> is living in isolated small bands in the wilderness "wild" or "domesticated"
18:52 < muurkha> fenn: generally when a wild animal kills a human they just leave afterwards and nobody knows what happened
18:53 < muurkha> "with impunity" is precisely the sense in which you "can't" do things you aren't physically restrained from; if you get punished, you don't have impunity
18:59 < fenn> um no, what happens is "john hasn't come back from his hike" and then a park ranger goes to find john and then when the corpse is discovered a tracker is called in to find the predator and eventually some guy with a mustache shoots the wild predator
19:00 < fenn> it's not like people just shrug and go "oh well, there's a wild man-eating cougar on the loose, guess it's my time to die next"
19:00 < fenn> they hunt that fucker down no matter the ecological consequences
19:00 < fenn> even for attacking livestock
19:07 < fenn> "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do."
19:07 < fenn> has quite a different connotation than the later versions
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19:54 < docl> low risk of random death -> feels similar to captivity -> low birth rate?
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19:59 < docl> or is it more a matter of having one's actions restricted ("what would the neighbors think" vs "what do I have to lose")?
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22:03 < fenn> https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=301648&x=. "The Starship-Super Heavy test flight will originate from Starbase, TX. The booster stage will
22:03 < fenn> separate and will then perform a partial return and land in the Gulf of Mexico or return to
22:03 < fenn> Starbase and be caught by the launch tower. The orbital Starship spacecraft will continue on its
22:03 < fenn> path to an altitude of approximately 250 km before performing a powered, targeted landing in the
22:03 < fenn> Pacific Ocean. 
23:48 < fenn> more thought experiments from the intelligent systems division http://qntm.org/mmacevedo
23:51 < fenn> the comments are pretty terrible
23:51 < fenn> "humanity should immediately collectively suicide on the off chance that this might happen"
23:51 < fenn> and so on
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