--- Log opened Mon Jul 11 00:00:17 2022
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01:11 < nmz787> Muaddib: how much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
01:11 < Muaddib> nmz787: I could chuck the heck out of some wood!
01:11 < nmz787> Muaddib: are you a woodchuck, then?
01:11 < Muaddib> nmz787: If I'm not a woodchuck, then I'm not chucking wood!
01:11 < nmz787> Muaddib: so you've confirmed you are indeed a woodchuck, interesting, and thanks.
01:11 < Muaddib> nmz787: I never said I was a woodchuck, but if I was, I could chuck the heck out of some wood!
01:11 < nmz787> Muaddib: you imply that you are a woodchuck
01:12 < Muaddib> nmz787: I never said that I was a woodchuck, but if I was, I could chuck the heck out of some wood!
01:12 < nmz787> Muaddib: yawn. I'm going to sleep. Chatbots are soooo 2001.
01:12 < Muaddib> nmz787: I never said that I was a chatbot, but if I was, I could chat the heck out of some bots!
01:13 < nmz787> Muaddib: so are you a crackhead?
01:13 < Muaddib> nmz787: No, but if I was, I could crack the heck out of some heads!
01:13 < nmz787> lol, exactly what I was hoping for
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02:40 < juri_> fenn: no image yet, trying to fix it properly. tl;dr: there is no algebra of effects of floating point imprecision on a projective geometric algebra system, so i'm writing one.
02:41 < juri_> i need the algebra of effects to detect intersection against line segments at the ends.
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05:27 < kanzure> hplustalktogpt3
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06:25 < kanzure> hand-drawn QR codes https://twitter.com/provoost/status/1546234558089252864
06:25 < kanzure> wonder if there is a faster method of hand-drawing QR codes
06:25 < kanzure> or a type of drawable code that can quickly encode bytes of information by hand
06:50 < TMA> just write it down ... the old method
06:52 < TMA> 6c 69 6b 65 20 74 68 69 73 0a
06:52 < TMA> like this
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11:25 < fenn> writing some words seems a lot easier
11:34 < muurkha> GWYN LIND MAD VALE SEAM LUND BREW BLAT LUSH CRAG DIN GOAL SHE FREY RUSH THIN RASH LIST
11:36 < muurkha> I think when I've done tests it's actually a little faster to hand-draw hex digits than to hand-draw words that theoretically encode binary.  I hand-draw words at about 12 wpm
11:36 < muurkha> at a plausible 12 bits per word that's 2.4 baud
11:37 < muurkha> but there's still the problem of how you do ECC
11:38 < muurkha> I've done a few tests drawing matrix barcodes using horizontal and vertical lines for individual bits, with each block of say 8×8 having row parity on the right edge and column parity on the bottom edge
11:39 < muurkha> subjectively this seems easier than mentally calculating checksums over hex digits, much less CRCs
11:39 < muurkha> https://nitter.dark.fail/provoost/status/1546234558089252864
11:43 < muurkha> I think hand-drawing words, hand-drawing bits, and hand-drawing hex digits are all in the same ballpark of speed and all much faster than hand-drawing a machine-readable QR code
11:43 < muurkha> which I have also attempted, but without success
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13:37 < L29Ah> Muaddib: tell us 12 random words
13:37 < Muaddib> L29Ah: I believe that every hour is magical
13:46 < muurkha> L29Ah: tell us 12 random words
13:50 < L29Ah> muurkha: no
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14:59 < TMA> muurkha: 12 random words
15:15 < fenn> 'Should we aim instead for a "maxipok" solution (Bostrom 2011) that maximizes the chance of an "ok" outcome?' https://existential-risk.org/concept
15:17 < fenn> interesting to see "aging" listed in the "global catastrophic risk" category
15:29 < fenn> weird that i've never heard this word "maxipok" before
15:30 < fenn> it should be spelled maxi-POK and pronounced "pee oh kay" for understandability
15:34 < L29Ah> mfw mortals are talking about existential risk
15:36 < fenn> what about it
15:37 < fenn> you think we shouldn't care about existential risk until aging is solved?
15:37 < L29Ah> unless it's more immediate, yes
15:38 < L29Ah> we should keep in mind that we're increasingly able to kill everyone and employ safety checks when using the appropriate tech, and that's it, nothing to talk about really
15:39 < fenn> shouldn't we proactively implement defensive infrastructure against known existential risks (e.g. biowarfare)
15:40 < fenn> it would be expensive and thus subject to politics
15:41 < fenn> i don't have much faith in government ability to do this in secret
15:42 < L29Ah> at your leisure, as your personal/company insurance, like you already do with money, goods supply lines, services, relationships, etc
15:42 < fenn> on the other hand, if all our vault designs are open source, the enemy can work around the known vulnerabilities
15:42 < L29Ah> i don't think everyone must follow the same strategy for survival; for now aging looks more immediate to me than biowarfare for instance
15:43 < fenn> i might have said that 3 years ago
15:43 < L29Ah> do you consider covid biowarfare or smth?
15:43 < muurkha> L29Ah: see, that's a much more realistic response than "I believe that every hour is magical"
15:43 < muurkha> Muaddib: don't you agree?
15:44 < Muaddib> muurkha: I believe that every hour is magical
15:44 < muurkha> TMA: thank you
15:44 < fenn> yes i think covid was a leak from a "less lethal" biowarfare research program
15:44 < muurkha> seems unlikely
15:44 < fenn> i don't really want to argue about it
15:44 < muurkha> I mean maybe someone could be that dumb
15:45 < muurkha> but for biowarfare you really don't want something that's good at spreading between the humans
15:45 < fenn> maybe your concept of warfare is too narrow
15:46 < muurkha> maybe, because it involves doing more damage to the enemy's forces than to your own forces :)
15:46 < fenn> a broader concept might not just include "kill the enemy" but "impoverish the enemy"
15:46 < muurkha> that's counterproductive if it's just as likely to impoverish your own forces though
15:46 < fenn> i'm not sure what to make of the chinese covid statistics
15:46 < L29Ah> i blame big pharma, they profit from the covid biowarfare affair the most
15:47 < muurkha> they're impoverishing themselves pretty hard right now to avoid being killed
15:47 < muurkha> you want something like anthrax that can only reproduce in your labs, or requires a post-reproduction step to be effective
15:47 < muurkha> that way you can spray it over enemy cities and not worry that you're unleashing an epidemic on your own
15:49  * L29Ah actually surprised there are no published attacks on major cities' water supplies
15:49 < muurkha> looking at just the effect on China you could say, sure, good biowarfare strategy, impoverishes the Chinese.  but if you look at the possible sources of the attack, like US, UK, Russia, they've all been harmed even more
15:49 < muurkha> covid is now the #1 disaster in US history by death toll, for example
15:50 < fenn> i hope someone has been fired over this
15:50 < muurkha> heh
15:50 < fenn> it's highly embarrassing :)
15:50 < L29Ah> even bigger than spanish flu?
15:50 < muurkha> L29Ah: unknown
15:50 < muurkha> because public health surveillance was spotty in 01918
15:53 < fenn> well anyway the muddled response is why i favor the 'bioweapon leak' theory over the 'bioweapon deployment' theory
15:54 < muurkha> it just doesn't seem like a promising category of bioweapon to develop
15:54 < muurkha> unless you're trying to impoverish a Mars colony or something
15:54 < muurkha> rather than other countries to which you are connected by daily intercontinental flights
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16:36 < docl> .title https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/self-replicating-robots-in-space/
16:36 < saxo> Evolving, Self-Replicating Robots Ready To Colonize Space | Digital Trends
16:41 < muurkha> "ready" sounds like an overstatement
16:43 < docl> lol yeah
16:43 < docl> links to this blog https://alanwinfield.blogspot.com/search/label/Autonomous%20Robot%20Evolution
16:44 < muurkha> "sometime within the next 12 months" they want to try it
16:45 < muurkha> doesn't seem like they're anywhere close to ISRU tho
16:47 < muurkha> 10.1162/isal_a_00147
16:50 < muurkha> on skimming the paper they don't even seem to be proposing self-replication
16:51 < docl> the blog links here https://www.york.ac.uk/robot-lab/are/publications/
16:52 < muurkha> they're proposing a robofab that fabs robots and decides what robot designs to fab based on which designs performed well in practice previously
16:52 < muurkha> > The fact that you’re sending this system to a planet with a limited supply of electronics, a limited supply of sensors, a limited supply of motors means that the thing cannot run away because those are finite resources.
16:52 < muurkha> > Those resources will diminish because parts will fail over time, so in a sense, you’ve got a built-in time limit because of the fact that those components will eventually all fail — including the RoboFabs themselves.
16:52 < L29Ah> Muaddib: why does a V-dipole antenna have an angle of 120 degrees?
16:52 < Muaddib> L29Ah: why not?
16:53 < muurkha> so as of this interview they're explicitly not proposing ISRU or self-replication
16:53 < muurkha> > The reason that we prefer the approach that has a centralized bit of hardware is that it’s easy to stop the process, it’s easy to kill the process.  What we don’t want to end up with is inadvertently creating von Neumann replicators. That would be a very bad idea.
17:01 < fenn> it's not like they're making new matter
17:01 < fenn> all "self replicating" systems are running on constrained resources
17:02 < muurkha> yeah, but in this case the system doesn't meet any definition of self-replication
17:02 < muurkha> a self-replicating system needs at least one subsystem, A, which transforms some feedstock, B, into an additional A, capable of doing the same transformation
17:03 < muurkha> the ARE system doesn't have any such A
17:03 < muurkha> I'm not merely quibbling about whether their feedstock B includes servomotors, wires, metals, metal oxide, or mixed rocks
17:04 < muurkha> I'm saying there isn't any self-replication going on by any definition at all
17:05 < muurkha> their RoboFab doesn't create more RoboFabs, full stop.  they aren't part of the phenotype space spanned by the genome they're working on
17:05 < muurkha> by design!
17:06 < fenn> ok
17:07 < fenn> looks like yet another "if you evolve it they will come" lack of a plan
17:07 < fenn> like reprap
17:08 < fenn> i don't really get why smart people fall into this trap
17:09 < muurkha> what do you mean?
17:10 < fenn> they should be focusing on improving the prediction capabilities of their simulations by feeding data back into it from the physical experiments, so as to more effectively use virtual evolution, if evolved design is the goal
17:10 < fenn> not just running a small number of physical evolution experiments
17:10 < docl> there's some overlap between fab that makes bots and fab that makes bots that make fabs
17:11 < fenn> when asked how the "evolution" process was supposed to work, the reprap people just sort of shrugged. then it took a lot of work by random volunteers from around the internet to make it actually improve
17:11 < fenn> our academics are supposed to have a clue from the start and make this whole process more efficient
17:11 < fenn> otherwise what's the point of having them
17:12 < L29Ah> to distract people from the fact that tax is robbery
17:13 < muurkha> fenn: yeah, that sounds like a good idea
17:14 < docl> https://www.york.ac.uk/robot-lab/are/publications/
17:15 < fenn> heh alan winfield is concerned about the ethical harms of robots, including "addiction" by which is assume he means addiction to the robot
17:17 < fenn> why would anyone want to interact with nasty brutish selfish and rude humans, when we can have our desires for intimacy and social contact fulfilled by a machine that has been optimized for that function
17:18 < fenn> they are just going to die anyway
17:18 < muurkha> haha
17:18 < fenn> it always ends in tears  :(
17:18 < muurkha> Muaddib: why should we?
17:18 < Muaddib> muurkha: Because we're the walking dead.
17:19 < muurkha> addiction to humans is pretty terrible too
17:20 < fenn> yeah but there's no "global ethical moratorium on human to human contact"
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17:23 < muurkha> nor on human to robot contact
17:23 < fenn> just wait
17:23 < docl> being addictive to humans might be a powerful selector for robots in need of cash to spend on parts for their babies
17:24 < fenn> the robo-ethicists are going to come out of the woodwork as soon as commercial androids are available
17:24 < muurkha> haven't commercial androids been available for several centuries?
17:24 < fenn> i give it another five years before it's a big political issue
17:24 < fenn> no
17:25 < fenn> walking was too hard
17:26 < fenn> .in 5 years ask fenn "are android ethics a big political issue yet?"
17:26 < saxo> fenn: Will remind at 12 Jul 2027 06:26:15 UTC
17:26 < muurkha> I recall Vaucanson was famous for the androids he sold
17:27 < fenn> .in 5 years robots, not cellphones
17:27 < saxo> fenn: Will remind at 12 Jul 2027 06:27:14 UTC
17:27 < muurkha> https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=yr0lEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=vaucanson+androids&source=bl&ots=i9_sLXOsAj&sig=ACfU3U3pvR0Ubhae9R1pmZ3p9yFbq50ALg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMmtDGi_L4AhUZAbkGHajODkEQ6AF6BAgIEAE#v=onepage&q=vaucanson%20androids&f=false
17:27 < fenn> meh
17:28 < fenn> orders of magnitude matter
17:28 < muurkha> "It is a measure of the cultural importance of Vaucanson's androids that, among the salon regulars, they could trump even a total lack of wit."
17:29 < muurkha> apparently Jessica Riskin's assessment of the intellectual content of mechanical design is positively medieval
17:33  * L29Ah has a very intimate contact and dependence on the Haber process
17:33 < muurkha> oh?  how so?
17:33 < L29Ah> i demand a bioethicist on duty to resolve my problems now!
17:33 < muurkha> mine is a bit more arms'-length
17:34 < muurkha> *arm's-length
17:34 < L29Ah> muurkha: most of nitrogen content of my body came from it, that's way more intimate than any human
17:34 < muurkha> true, mine too
17:35 < L29Ah> https://tinystash.undef.im/il/42Z6sn6oecuDZEnSioHRu3YQPhYFeopgVM1NcWRJgiQn8eQbFhZFJuiXepEciCXw8N1rNLTdPMcvgWCCEz4nZPmW.jpg rate my AIS antenna
17:36  * L29Ah wonders if he can replicate https://www.rtl-sdr.com/simple-noaameteor-weather-satellite-antenna-137-mhz-v-dipole/ reliably using similar technology
17:36 < fenn> .title http://alanwinfield.blogspot.com/2018/2/why-ethical-robots-might-not-be-such.html
17:36 < saxo> Alan Winfield's Web Log
17:37 < fenn> .title http://alanwinfield.blogspot.com/2018/02/why-ethical-robots-might-not-be-such.html
17:37 < saxo> Alan Winfield's Web Log: Why ethical robots might not be such a good idea after all
17:37 < fenn> you set them to "evil" mode and their eyes glow red
17:38 < fenn> nobody needs a hash that long
17:39 < L29Ah> > Compliance with ethical standards such as BS 8611 guide to the ethical design and application of robots and robotic systems
17:39 < L29Ah> i expected that to be a fictious standard, and BS being short for "bullshit", but the cyberpunk nature of reality doesn't stop surprising me
17:40 < fenn> [redacted]
17:41 < fenn> a bit short sighted on winfield's part to assume that robots are not capable of participating in ethical governance
17:41 < muurkha> L29Ah: many people report success on receiving NOAA signals!
17:42 < fenn> BS = british standard
17:43 < fenn> .g bs 8611
17:43 < saxo> https://www.machinebuilding.net/bs-86112016-ethical-design-and-application-of-robots
17:43 < fenn> not what i wanted
17:43 < muurkha> not sure specifically about 137 MHz and SDR, L29Ah; the satellites transmit several different signals
17:44 < L29Ah> Muaddib: summarize the BS 8611:2016 standard please
17:44 < Muaddib> L29Ah: The standard is described as " ethical design and application of robots"
17:45 < L29Ah> Muaddib: what kind of recommendations does it provide?
17:45 < Muaddib> L29Ah: The standard provides recommendations for the ethical design and application of robots, specifically in terms of safety and welfare.
17:45 < muurkha> rong
17:46 < fenn> just slap a yellow triangular "unethical robot" warning sticker on that bad boy
17:46 < fenn> does sandberg have one mocked up yet
17:47 < muurkha> https://web.archive.org/web/20220710191240/https://www.economist.com/business/2022/07/10/after-a-turbocharged-boom-are-chipmakers-in-for-a-supersized-bust
17:48 < muurkha> "TrendForce, a research firm, expects memory prices to fall by a tenth in the next three months."
17:48 < muurkha> uh
17:48 < muurkha> .units .5**(3/24)
17:48 < saxo>  Definition: 0.91700404 
17:48 < muurkha> so they'll fall 10% instead of the usual 8.83%?
17:49 < muurkha> exciting times to be sure
17:49 < muurkha> but hardly consistent with "a supersized bust"
17:52  * L29Ah wonders if a tensegrity approach would be appropriate for antenna framework construction
17:52 < muurkha> I think it should work great
17:52 < muurkha> .g tensegrity antenna mast
17:52 < saxo> https://cimar.mae.ufl.edu/cimar/pages/thesis/knight_byron.pdf
17:53 < L29Ah> attaching two reed sticks together at 120° w/o a 3d printer is surprisingly challenging
17:53 < muurkha> reed?
17:53 < L29Ah> arundo donax
17:53 < muurkha> you can lay out a 120° angle on cardboard with compass and straightedge
17:53 < L29Ah> i can but i can't make it rigid
17:53 < L29Ah> i doubt cardboard itself would sustain much wind
17:54 < muurkha> Byron Knight's dissertation above is about a deployable tensegrity design
17:54 < muurkha> well, I'm not much of a physical object building person
17:54 < muurkha> so maybe I'm not the person to ask
17:55 < muurkha> can you get 120° PVC pipe plumbing fittings?
17:55 < L29Ah> for now i think about arranging two sticks in an X shape, tying them together at the cross and then adding two ropes at two pairs of ends to set the angle
17:55 < muurkha> sounds good
17:56 < muurkha> actually you can make a 120° angle out of a plumbing tee (180°) and two 90° elbows
17:57 < muurkha> because you can rotate the elbows to any angle as you screw them into opposite sides of the tee
17:57 < muurkha> it might be easier just to duct-tape some wires to a sheet of coroplast though
17:58 < fenn> can i get the deployable tensegrity antenna thesis in animated gif format
17:58 < muurkha> I was hoping so, but he seems to have left the gifs out
17:59 < fenn> is it just a single octahedron? or does it tile?
17:59 < muurkha> it's largely 100 pages of badly typeset matrix equations
17:59 < muurkha> but it seems like he's stretching a reflective surface over a tensegrity frame to get a dish
18:00 < muurkha> a single hexagonal antiprism maybe
18:01 < muurkha> oh he actually says "hexagonal anti-prism" on p. 96 (104/113)
18:54 < kanzure> how is that gyrotron geothermal energy startup doing
18:54 < kanzure> i was thinking why not mount it ~~in space~~~ but i see now that they wanted to do conventional drilling for the first few miles
19:12 < muurkha> Muaddib: spaaace
19:12 < Muaddib> muurkha: but then you get into special fields for geomagnetism, etc. so it's not exactly the same
19:13 < muurkha> haven't heard anything about the gyrotron folks for a while, what was the company called?
19:13 < muurkha> Muaddib: you're being silly
19:13 < Muaddib> muurkha: that's the point!
19:13 < muurkha> it is
19:23 < muurkha> holy shit, from the Economist:
19:23 < muurkha> > In April Morris Chang, former chairman of tsmc, bluntly called America’s attempt to reshore chip production an “exercise in futility”, pointing out the country’s high costs and the lack of engineering expertise. 
19:24 < muurkha> Morris Chang of course is not just the former chairman of TSMC; he founded the company after a successful engineering career advancing the state of the art in chipmaking in the US
19:24 < fenn> these nuclear test certificates of participation are so weird https://www.flickr.com/photos/diffenderfer/albums/72157646386515147/with/31452284297/
19:25 < fenn> "the marshmallow event" at the 1962 nevada nuclear test site
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 12 00:00:18 2022