--- Log opened Mon Aug 01 00:00:37 2022
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01:54 < nsh> but i wonder has anyone put better thought into the question of an interstellar polity than Asimov, and elaborated that into something resembling a model or any kind of artefact would help others approach the problem?
01:55 < nsh> ideally there'd be a whole canon on the subject
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03:21 < darsie> polity?
03:22 < darsie> policy?
03:23 < L29Ah> polity.
04:15 < darsie> id
04:15 < darsie> ic
04:15 < darsie> (politics) An organizational structure of the government of a state, church, etc.
04:15 < darsie> (political science) A politically organized unit; a state. 
07:27 < adlai|alphanum> Muaddib: how do you gild an effective cage, without wasting copper?
07:27 < Muaddib> adlai|alphanum: with more copper
07:28 < adlai|alphanum> kanzure: thank you for saving me the trouble of joining a discord channel to read logs.
07:35 < L29Ah> Muaddib: how much is 2^32 - 1?
07:35 < Muaddib> L29Ah: about 20 gigabytes
07:45 < kanzure> adlai|alphanum: which discord?
07:45 < adlai|alphanum> any
07:48 < adlai|alphanum> years ago, I began reading their Terms of Service; then my eyes ached, and the search for eyeglasses ended upon my face, so I stopped reading.
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10:08 < nmz787> https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0957-4484/24/45/455503
10:08 < nmz787> .title
10:08 < saxo> ShieldSquare Captcha
10:08 < nmz787> Low-voltage and high-performance buzzer-scanner based streamlined atomic force microscope system
10:08 < nmz787> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ohx.2022.e00341
10:09 < nmz787> Open-source controller for low-cost and high-speed atomic force microscopy imaging of skin corneocyte nanotextures
10:09 < nmz787> https://osf.io/wgx4p/files/osfstorage
10:09 < nmz787> (design files for previous link)
10:10 < nmz787> https://www.stromlinet-nano.org/products
10:10 < nmz787> .title
10:10 < saxo> Stromlinet Nano - Nanoscience Made Easy
10:11 < nmz787> supposedly $3k AFM system, to which one of the recent links I posted added their own MCU to for 100X image acquisition time speedup 
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10:16 < nmz787> another reference, unfortunately in spanish https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292435106_System_atomic_force_microscopy_based_on_a_digital_optical_reading_unit_and_a_scanner-buzzer
10:18 < nmz787> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51193522_Single-cell_isolation_using_a_DVD_optical_pickup
10:18 < nmz787> found via https://forum.hackteria.org/t/laser-optical-pickup-unit-hacking/771
10:22 < muurkha> nsh: none that I've read, but the crucial fact about an interstellar polity as far as we know is latency
10:31 < kanzure> where was the concept introduced that interstellar commerce was extremely unlikely? was that a paper?
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10:33 < kanzure> maybe it hasn't been documented
10:36 < muurkha> sounds familiar
10:38 < muurkha> nsh: without FTL, which is unlikely, a galactic polity necessarily involves communication latencies of hundreds of thousands of years
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13:52 < nmz787> FTL?
13:52 < nmz787> Foundational Translation Theory?
14:02 < muurkha> .wik FTL
14:02 < saxo> "[Disambiguation] Faster-than-light communication and travel Ferritin light chain, encoded by the FTL gene Foot-lambert ft-L, a measure of luminance" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTL
14:02 < muurkha> the first
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17:09 < kanzure> https://gizmodo.com/what-happened-to-transhumanism-in-2022-life-extension-1849199492
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17:19 < muurkha> .t
17:19 < fenn> courtesy of kent: http://epicquest.bio/play/
17:19 < saxo> Whatever Happened to the Transhumanists?
17:19 < muurkha> .t
17:19 < saxo> play
17:19 < muurkha> no thanks
17:20 < muurkha> play yourself
17:20 < fenn> not sure if serious, but it's a biotech RPG or something
17:20 < fenn> i don't make the <title>s
17:20 < muurkha> neither does saxo
17:44 < L29Ah> 19:31:04]<kanzure> where was the concept introduced that interstellar commerce was extremely unlikely? was that a paper?
17:44 < L29Ah> it's likely, as it's likely that interstellar travel only takes off after humans' lifespan is extended a lot 
17:46 < L29Ah> and it's likely that humans on faraway solid masses figure out they can't effectively bootstrap some industries w/o otherworldly stuff
17:54 < muurkha> well, suppose one in ten stars has a habitable planet, and travel at 0.1c is feasible
17:57 < muurkha> the nearest candidate for biological humans might be Sirius, Rigil Kentaurus, Lalande 21185, or Epsilon Eridani
17:58 < muurkha> so 4.3 to 10.5 light-years away, or 43 to 105 years of travel
17:58 < muurkha> 47 to 115 years after you include the time to radio your request
18:00 < muurkha> what kind of industry might you not be able to bootstrap in 50-100 years, assuming you're somehow managing to survive?
18:02 < muurkha> at industrial-age 5% discount rates, 47 years is
18:03 < muurkha> .units 1.05**-47
18:03 < saxo>  Definition: 0.10094921 
18:05 < muurkha> a 90% reduction in value.  so you have to overpay for your order by a factor of 100: if you were to invest the million zorkmids you put on the payment spaceship today in building factories instead, then in 47 years they would be worth ten million zorkmids
18:06 < muurkha> your trading partner, however, is only willing to send you a hundred thousand zorkmids' worth of goods, because if they were to invest the hundred thousand zorkmids' worth of production in their own domestic industry instead of putting it on a rocket ship to Rigil Kentaurus, in 47 years when your payment arrives their 100kzm investment would have become worth a million zorkmids
18:07 < muurkha> so 47 years from now you get 100kzm worth of goods instead of 10Mzm of local production.  100× overpayment
18:08 < muurkha> even with humans' lifespan being extended a lot
18:08 < muurkha> if we're talking about 115 years to ship to Epsilon Eridani, instead of 100× it's 10000×
18:09 < muurkha> maybe, if the dense inner core of the galaxy turns out to be habitable, interstellar commerce will prevail there
18:10 < muurkha> but out here in the outer arms, it seems relatively unlikely
18:12 < muurkha> maybe if near-lightspeed travel turns out to be feasible, and economic growth doesn't speed up; or if economic growth slows down
18:13 < muurkha> because then we're talking about potential trade latencies of 10 or 20 years instead of 50 or 100; or the equivalent, measured in growth
18:15 < muurkha> L29Ah: does that make sense?
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18:23 < L29Ah> yes
18:30 < muurkha> are there things I am overlooking?
18:33 < L29Ah> it's very possible that certain planets are extremely poor at certain elements, and it would make more sense to bring them from outside than to transmute
18:34 < L29Ah> 02:09:18]<kanzure> https://gizmodo.com/what-happened-to-transhumanism-in-2022-life-extension-1849199492
18:34 < L29Ah> > Like so many others after 9/11, I felt spiritually and existentially lost. 
18:34 < L29Ah> wut
18:36 < muurkha> yeah, Earth's crust is extremely poor in siderophiles
18:36 < muurkha> for example
18:36 < muurkha> .wik siderophile
18:36 < saxo> "[Disambiguation] Siderophile means 'iron-loving'. o: /  Siderophilic bacteria, bacteria that require or are facilitated by free iron Siderophile elements, chemical elements such as iridium or gold that tend to bond with metallic iron, as described by the Goldschmidt [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderophile
18:36 < muurkha> .wik siderophile elements
18:36 < saxo> "The Goldschmidt classification, / developed by Victor Goldschmidt (1888–1947), is a geochemical classification which groups the chemical elements within the Earth according to their preferred host phases into lithophile (rock-loving), siderophile (iron-loving), chalcophile [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderophile_elements
18:39 < muurkha> .t https://archive.fo/MlCvR
18:39 < saxo> archive.ph
18:39 < muurkha> (the above transhumanism article)
18:42 < fenn> the siderophile elements article was very educational
18:43 < fenn> now i know *why* some elements are more rare and expensive
18:43 < muurkha> yay!
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18:55 < muurkha> still it's cheaper to mine siderophiles from Earth's crust than it would be to ship them from Rigil Kentaurus I think
18:55 < muurkha> accelerating mass to .1c costs 4.5e14 J/kg
18:56 < muurkha> at 4¢/kWh that's US$5 million per kg
18:57 < muurkha> platinum currently costs US$29000/kg
18:57 < muurkha> also of course we can mine platinum from asteroids
18:58 < muurkha> .units half (.1c)**2 .04$/kW hour in million $/kg
18:58 < saxo> 	half (.1c)**2 .04$/kW hour = 4.9930843 million $/kg 	half (.1c)**2 .04$/kW hour = (1 / 0.20027701) million $/kg 
18:59 < fenn> 4¢/kWh is probably not correct
19:00 < fenn> the whole concept of dollar values gets screwy in a relativistic setting
19:00 < muurkha> it's just the current price
19:01 < L29Ah> muurkha: and there could be planets that are even much poorer than earth
19:01 < fenn> (impersonating morpheus) you think those are dollars you're spending?
19:01 < muurkha> of course it's hard to guess how much energy will cost in a world where interstellar travel has become feasible
19:02 < muurkha> or how scarce platinum or, say, selenium might be in the crust of a hypothetical planet orbiting Rigil Kentaurus
19:03 < muurkha> presumably if energy becomes cheaper that will lower the cost of refining platinum from Teran crust too
19:04 < muurkha> just saying that, at current prices, the energy cost to send ten tonnes of platinum from Rigil Kentaurus to Earth is 200 times as much as it would cost to mine it here on Earth
19:23 < fenn> .t https://news.mit.edu/2022/analog-deep-learning-ai-computing-0728 
19:23 < saxo> New hardware offers faster computation for artificial intelligence, with much less energy | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology
19:29 < muurkha> fenn: what do you think the importance of this new hardware is?
19:32 < muurkha> my instinctive reaction to anything that begins "https://news.mit.edu/" is "someone is about to hype basic research results with a 1% chance of being put into practice in 15 years as if they were a new mass-produced product"
19:34 < kanzure> you're not wrong but i'm not sure why you're mentioning that?
19:35 < kanzure> his posting this link is only a crime if the underlying research is fundamentally wrong or dumb
19:35 < kanzure> (intellectual laundering)
19:41 < fenn> i thought it would be memristors but instead it's some wacky proton electrolyte thing possibly involving proton tunneling
19:42 < fenn> which is fundamentally a new technology afaik
19:43 < fenn> a millionfold better performance on <obscure metric> may turn out to be important
20:03 < muurkha> no prosecution was intended, kanzure 
20:04 < muurkha> I was more hoping to elicit "some wacky proton electrolyte thing possibly involving proton tunneling which is fundamentally a new technology afaik"
20:05 < muurkha> my initial guess had instead been that it was Flash memory being used for analog ANNs
20:30 < muurkha> the Gizmodo article was pretty good
20:40 < kanzure> .wik dread (forum)
20:40 < saxo> "Dread is a Reddit-like dark web discussion forum featuring news and discussions around darknet markets. The site's administrators go by the alias of Paris and HugBunter. /  Dread is a popular community hub which has been described as a 'Reddit-style forum' and the successor [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dread_(forum)
20:40 < kanzure> https://dreadytofatroptsdj6io7l3xptbet6onoyno2yv7jicoxknyazubrad.onion/
20:44 < L29Ah> interesting, wikipedians could find a traditional media with the darknet link
20:46 < kanzure> ?
20:46  * L29Ah wonders if it would be prudent to consider 95% of links to darknet services in wikipedia to refer to some sort of MITMed counterparts of the services
20:46 < L29Ah> kanzure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dread_(forum)#cite_note-dnlink-12
20:47 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
20:47 < kanzure> yeah yeah, always use pgp-signed onion links
20:47 < kanzure> pgp-verified onion links, rather
21:04 < adlai|alphanum> muurkha: why did your example namedrop imaginary currencies without strawmanning billionaires?
21:05 < adlai|alphanum> I mean, isn't "bootstrop industries" what billionaires are supposed to do, modulo twitter?
21:06 < adlai|alphanum> one of my favorite arguments taht ended too soon, because Mircea Popescu was slightly too authoritative about opinions, was whether high-energy physics is a waste of money.
21:06 < adlai|alphanum> so so few people had the balls to say, "wow, you are actually correct, and here is why.", and instead they simply nodded along until he died.
21:11  * adlai|alphanum wonders when it will be too soon for a "my other password is vb5pz3r" bumper sticker
--- Log closed Tue Aug 02 00:00:38 2022