--- Log opened Wed Aug 03 00:00:39 2022
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01:04 < fenn> chatted up anders sandberg at a very loud cocktail party. he told me about the dave gingery build your own shop from scratch book series, SKDB quickly came up, he suggested legos, i showed him my SKDB lego demo, now i guess i am supposed to talk to eric drexler :O
01:06 < fenn> i need to go rest my porr littow brayne to reconstruct all this. i haven't even brain-dumped lessdeath summer camp yet either
01:08 < fenn> i must have recited my spiel about open source hardware for lab automation
01:12 < fenn> trying to figure out if http://retro.bio makes any sense at all
01:12 < fenn> "we have a big pile of cash to spend" is a pretty good argument
01:12 < fenn> but like, isn't this what happened at halcyon?
01:13 < fenn> god i should just get a job at a VC office being the resident grump
01:13 < fenn> when i am god emperor, every project will have a grump assigned to keep the manics in check
01:13 < fenn> bonus grump points for being an austrian machinist
01:13 < fenn> look at this author list
01:13 < fenn> Payne, Andrew C.; Andregg, Michael; Kemmish, Kent; Hamalainen, Mark; Bowell, Charlotte; Bleloch, Andrew; Klejwa, Nathan; Lehrach, Wolfgang; Schatz, Ken; Stark, Heather; Marblestone, Adam; Church, George; Own, Christopher S.; Andregg, William (July 31, 2013). "Molecular Threading: Mechanical Extraction, Stretching and Placement of DNA Molecules from a Liquid-Air Interface". PLOS ONE
01:14 < fenn> what do i do to get "george church" stamped on my paper?
01:15 < fenn> oh crap i did it again
01:21 < fenn> .title https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay3446
01:21 < saxo> Just a moment...
01:23 < fenn> "In situ genome sequencing resolves DNA sequence and structure in intact biological samples" i.e. using their swelling technique to enlarge the tissue sample and show where the different parts of the genome are located
01:26 < fenn> aka ExSEQ based on ExM hydrogel expansion: "Expansion sequencing: Spatially precise in situ transcriptomics in intact biological systems" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aax2656
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02:07 < adlai|alphanum> fenn: I did one time hear a story about a party where the door ratio being enforced was books per person, rather than cocks per twattle
02:08 < adlai|alphanum> obviously, either extreme is undesirable; how are you supposed to feed the raw materials of the glue factory if the party turns into a library?
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06:23 < kanzure> https://zestular.substack.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc?s=w
06:24 < kanzure> https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-tenets
06:27 < L29Ah> > The overarching goal for humanity is to preserve the light of consciousness.
06:27 < L29Ah> no thx
07:24 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kylebrussell/status/1549185034543841280
07:24 < saxo> AI alignment is convincing guilty millionaires and behind-the-curve institutions to tithe to your new priest sub-class to ensure that the modern God isn’t malevolent https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FX_Pk-EWAAIjMPf.jpg (@kylebrussell)
07:30 < kanzure> they are meeting at "genesis house 817 oak street" this weekend https://partiful.com/e/7CFp7Vyyf06e2N70m47w
07:31 < kanzure> "FYI, there is a Genesis House in NYC, so you should make it clear that this is in SF" 
07:34 < kanzure> we shall deploy fenn to this event
07:40 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1554751398272811008
07:40 < saxo> Volcano lairs are particularly useful for brain preservation objectives. https://twitter.com/mnvrsngh/status/1554448272768602112 (@kanzure)
07:40 < kanzure> .tw
07:40 < saxo> Wildest discovery I’ve come across in a long time: The Vesuvius eruption (79 AD) produced such intense heat that it turned brains into glass (left). This image from a scanning electron microscope (right) shows neurons preserved in the glass. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZIHBHiXoAAbwy3.png https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZIHHjnWQAALDQQ.jpg (@mnvrsngh)
07:52 < kanzure> also some interest from sam altman it would seem https://twitter.com/sama/status/1540227243368058880
08:04 < superkuh> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.30.502146v1 - invasive highly localized neurostimulation from miniaturized ultrasound producing candle soot layer for fiber optic lasers.
08:53 < kanzure> "Heat-induced brain vitrification from the Vesuvius eruption circa 79 CE" https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1909867
08:54 < kanzure> "Preservation of neurons in an AD 79 vitrified human brain" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0240017
09:12 < kanzure> anyway, i think the emphasis on "because it's what physics wants" is dumb
09:36 < kanzure> "¬Post-Gastrulation Synthetic Embryos Generated Ex Utero from Mouse Naïve ESCs" https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)00981-3
09:46 < archels_> went to the Reno makerspace yesterday. Fantastic place, huge factory hall with some equally huge Burning Man artworks in there. Feels like half of Reno is BM-themed, haha
09:46 < kanzure> how long you staying?
09:47 < archels_> probably a few more days, it depends on how soon my kind local hosts can get this RV running (some fuel pump issues)
09:48 < kanzure> will you go back to sf?
09:48 < archels_> also depends on how favourable the DMV gods are to me, eek
09:49  * archels_ is paranoid as heck about messing up the paperwork and having to wait two more weeks for an appointment
09:49 < archels_> definitely, yes
09:49 < archels_> haven't been there yet, I just came in from Seattle -> Vegas -> Reno
09:50 < kanzure> if you go this weekend you can join the e/acc meeting
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10:21 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/zetalyrae/status/1517648125997035524
10:21 < saxo> Our central existential threat is how small our ambitions are. // "Conserving energy" we should use 10,000x more energy. // "Finite resources" space. // "Overpopulation" there should be 10³⁰ humans. // "Reducing our footprint" the human footprint should bestride the Hubble volume. (@zetalyrae)
11:21  * L29Ah agrees
11:45 < fenn> i can't keep up with the nym treadmill
12:10 < fenn> ever
12:11 < fenn> ac
12:11 < fenn> sry
12:12 < L29Ah> 📎℻📎
12:12 < fenn> ahem. does anyone have a good anki deck or dumb flashcards for memorizing neurotransmitter chemical structures and related precursors/drugs/metabolites and their names? it's a god damn mess of words even though the chemistry is pretty simple
12:12 < L29Ah> do you plan working as a psychiatrist or smth?
12:13 < fenn> i was supposed to do this 10 years ago with neurotransmitter labeled coffee mugs at langton
12:13  * L29Ah doesn't understand why would anyone drill their names when there's google/wikipedia
12:13 < fenn> we're all out own psychiatrists in the end
12:13 < fenn> our*
12:13 < L29Ah> we are, but the data you outlined is rarely needed for serving one patient
12:13 < L29Ah> *servicing
12:13 < fenn> because i frequently stumble over the disjointed nature of the word salad
12:14 < L29Ah> so you feel like you should stumble over it every day for five minutes? :)
12:14 < fenn> and there are frequently interesting people with chemical structure tattoos/jewelry so i get utility from being able to identify them by sight
12:15 < L29Ah> tattoos and jewelry are stupid, point at them and giggle
12:15 < fenn> yes yes, go back to your basement
12:15 < fenn> sudo make me a flashcard set
12:16 < fenn> people wear things to present aspects of their personality to others in the world
12:17 < fenn> personally i wear plain black clothing and have no tattoos or unusual styling
12:17 < fenn> it makes me difficult to start a conversation with i suppose
12:17 < fenn> there's no handle to grab
12:18 < L29Ah> badges are nice
12:18 < L29Ah> cheap to install anywhere and easy to modify to suit your currently preferred handle
12:18 < fenn> yesterday i was trying to start a conversation with another all-black no-tattoos gentleman who i had a tenuous connection with. he was wearing a necklace with the chemical structure of serotonin, which i had guessed was melatonin
12:18 < fenn> really i should have guessed tryptamine based on the way the jewelry was constructed, but i derped
12:19 < fenn> not being comfortable with this is the same feeling as not being able to read kanji, i feel like an illiterate
12:19 < L29Ah> i think these are encrypted on purpose
12:20 < fenn> kanji is etymologically a pile of historical accidents, like most words
12:21 < fenn> i feel like biologists could try a little harder to refactor their naming systems every once in a while, like, when we figure out what the "factor 32" does they can actually name it something relevant
12:22 < fenn> "NF-κβ" is just an awful name
12:23 < fenn> oh it's a B not a beta
12:23 < fenn> anyway
12:23 < fenn> TNF-α etc
12:24 < fenn> just word salad
12:25 < L29Ah> very
12:26 < L29Ah> sadly, biological systems are salad
12:26 < L29Ah> so unsurprisingly their description is also salad
12:27 < L29Ah> could use some improvement, but it won't help much
12:27  * L29Ah proposes insulin -> metabolin
12:32 < fenn> http://store.madewithmolecules.com/product/endorphin-choker
12:32 < fenn> http://store.madewithmolecules.com/product/i-am-starstuff-pendant-necklace
12:32 < fenn> i guess that is a kind of secret code
12:33 < fenn> totally arbitrary tho
12:41 < fenn> when i mentioned pursuing transhumanist, the gentleman in question listed the goals of transhumanism as: intelligence, longevity, and happiness. i said i could do without the happiness part. he said that given a choice of two out of three he'd pick happiness for sure, and then longevity
12:42 < fenn> he came from the effective altruism global conference
12:42 < fenn> i dunno what my point was
12:42 < fenn> in any case, it was not a psychedelic drug necklace
12:43 < fenn> which was what i had initially thought
12:53 < L29Ah> that reminded me that on Moscow Lesswrong meetups we had a badge system that signified the wearer's opinion on levels of acceptability (yes!/after negotiation/no) of "physical (in fact mechanical) interaction", "openness to questioning for personal stuff", "talkativity" and "critics"
12:54 < fenn> "fight me bro"
12:56 < fenn> i want to make a system of protocols or codes of behavior that people can cryptographically attest to intend to follow. then you can predict in advance what is to be expected in terms of norms and exchanges or obligations, regardless of cultural differences
12:56 < L29Ah> try again in 100 years
12:57 < fenn> unfortunately such a system would be extremely susceptible to preference falsification, so there'd need to be some kind of feedback in the form of "X did follow code Y in practice" which would need its own incentive system 
12:57 < L29Ah> we need a global pseudonymous reputation system
12:57 < fenn> .wik preference falsification
12:57 < saxo> "Preference falsification is the act of communicating a preference that differs from one's true preference. The public frequently conveys, especially to researchers or pollsters, preferences that differ from what they truly want, often because they believe the conveyed [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification
12:58 < L29Ah> i suggest bitcoin burning as means of primary reputation acquisition in the system
12:58 < fenn> it's hard to perform real actions with a pseudonym
12:58 < L29Ah> why?
12:58 < fenn> and basically i don't care about people's norms or ethics if we're just chatting online
12:59 < fenn> obv signal to noise ratio is still important
12:59 < fenn> L29Ah: have you ever tried to perform an action anonymously?
12:59 < L29Ah> pseudonymous /= anonymous
13:00 < fenn> the same discipline must be followed, the same techniques are used
13:00 < L29Ah> pseudonymous = not requiring stuff like government ID, biometric hacks and stuff like that, being able to hold as many identities as you desire
13:00  * L29Ah allows sloppy opsec and using only one pseudonym for everything
13:00 < L29Ah> that's just a special case
13:01 < fenn> yes i know you as L29Ah 
13:01 < L29Ah> i don't see your point
13:01 < fenn> if you showed up at my doorstep and claimed to be L29Ah i would probably let you in, with some corroborating information (e.g. your manner of speaking)
13:02 < fenn> if you showed up as Evgeny Korsikov and asked to be let in, i would be like, do i know you?
13:02 < fenn> so your pseudonym has more reputation with me than your real name
13:02 < fenn> legal name*
13:03 < L29Ah> as a side note, if someone showed up at my doorstep and claimed to be fenn, i would assume a defensive stance and turn the person away, notifying my friends of a very suspicious intruder, since fenn doesn't know where i live
13:03 < L29Ah> fenn: yes, so?
13:03 < fenn> but once you start trying to get hired, travel, open a bank account, even acquiring bitcoin or setting up your own server online, you have to drag in all this real name spaghetti
13:03 < L29Ah> it depends
13:04 < L29Ah> which real name btw?
13:04 < fenn> a friend tried making a strongly pseudonymous website (i.e. not sloppy) and it was very difficult
13:04 < L29Ah> assuming "real name" means "name written in a government id"
13:04 < fenn> yeah should have said legal name, not real name
13:05 < fenn> i'm one of those annoying people that has a "real name" that's not my legal name
13:05 < fenn> it's not a secret, just a preference
13:06 < L29Ah> i explored making a strongly pseudonymous website, and it seems easy: porkbun registrar doesn't call for papers, plenty of VPS services for crypto that also don't, plenty of means to acquire the crypto anonymously, Tor stuff to avoid network footprints
13:06 < fenn> .wik porkbun
13:06 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porkbun gave 404 | Searched en for 'porkbun' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
13:07 < L29Ah> just another cheapass domain name seller
13:08 < L29Ah> 3rd level domain stuff like afraid.org and darknet urls don't require anything either
13:09 < fenn> porkbun offers: .wiki, .work, .email, .voyage, and .group. do they also do standard stuff like .com and .org?
13:10 < L29Ah> yes afair
13:10 < L29Ah> it offers a shitload of tlds
13:10 < fenn> ok so assuming you have an anonymous DNS service, you have to point it to an IP. how do you have access to this IP and the computer running behind it without leaving traces of your identity all over it (credit card / bitcoin transactions, personal connections)
13:11 < L29Ah> you can pay with Monero/LN/CoinJoin
13:12 < L29Ah> access over tor exclusively
13:13 < L29Ah> also as a rule of thumb, if you MUST use something that bans tor exits, you can use it through a cheap "vpn" service that you access through tor
13:14 < fenn> is it normal for a web hosting provider to ban tor access?
13:14 < L29Ah> idk, these i use don't
13:15 < L29Ah> but generally plenty of sites love clownflare and such, and that almost means "no tor"
13:16 < fenn> yeah i'm well aware
13:17 < fenn> i don't understand why the output of site builder stuff like wix and weebly has to be so damn awful
13:17  * fenn hobbles around on a digital cane
13:18  * fenn shakes fist at cloud
13:28 < kanzure> doing stuff anonymously should be less difficult
13:28 < kanzure> should be made to be less difficult
13:45 < fenn> .tw https://nitter.fdn.fr/joshcryer/status/1054466738862149632
13:45 < saxo> Cryptocurrency was a mistake. It has sapped a decade of thoughtful mindshare in tens of thousands of techno-geeks with nothing to show for it except fraud and criminal activity. It has exposed the worst traits of humanity to what should've been a decade of code enlightenment. (@joshcryer)
13:47 < L29Ah> .tw https://nitter.42l.fr/nntaleb/status/1467098737021493252
13:47 < saxo> So looks like / 1- Bitcoin is no hedge for adversity / 2- Bitcoin is no hedge for inflation / 3- Bitcoin is no hedge for deflation / 4- Bitcoin is no currency / 5- Bitcoin is nothing https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFwt6DWWQAc_7sD.jpg (@nntaleb)
13:49 < fenn> it's a good conversation starter
13:49 < fenn> "soo how about them bitcoins"
13:49 < kanzure> tell me how you really feel
13:49 < kanzure> at least it's not adtech?
13:51 < fenn> it's the last cryptocurrency published in an environment where people were capable of thinking and rationally discussing the function of the system, because they were relatively disinterested in the outcome
13:51 < fenn> as an assemblage of cypherpunk lego blocks, it is a minimum viable system for fungible artificial scarcity
13:52 < fenn> it also happens to be decentralized, which makes it hard to kill
13:52 < fenn> so, bitcoin is still relevant
13:53 < kanzure> i've been looking at the early history of bitcoin aodption and there's no definitive written overview
13:53 < fenn> all subsequent cryptocurrency systems are suspect due to the possibility of motivated cognition / conflict of interest
13:53 < kanzure> roger ver started paying for ads in 2011 on national radio
13:54 < kanzure> i think webcash might be the only recent cryptosystem that wasn't immediately listed on an exchange
13:54 < kanzure> which is kind of cool
13:54 < fenn> "bitcoin is nothing" is hyperbole
13:54 < fenn> shame on nntaleb for posturing
13:55 < L29Ah> fenn: mind that todays bitcoin isn't satoshi's bitcoin
13:55 < fenn> indeed, there have been many improvements
13:55 < L29Ah> and nassim taleb loves speaking shit about bitcoin
13:55 < L29Ah> *just
13:55 < L29Ah> "improvements"
13:56 < fenn> iirc originally you sent bitcoins to an IP address
13:56 < fenn> that's not gonna work in the long run
13:56 < L29Ah> bitcoin "improvements" are suspect due to the possibility of motivated cognition / conflict of interest
13:56 < fenn> then there are order of magnitude algorithmic efficiency improvements in elliptic curve mod arithmetic
13:57 < fenn> yes and everyone knows that. bitcoin modifications are subject to much more scrutiny than the typical new cryptocurrency
13:58  * L29Ah is still not sure he gets all the privacy implications of LN well
13:58 < fenn> i still haven't read the LN whitepaper :\
13:58  * L29Ah still didn't start implementing lnd in haskell
13:58 < kanzure> i think lightning is very complex, perhaps overly complex, especially considering the pre-existing complexity of the bitcoin layer
13:59 < L29Ah> nah bitcoin is simple enough
14:00 < kanzure> what
14:00 < kanzure> can you actually recite the entire architecture- like the two stacks, bitcoin script, the p2p anti-DoS stuff, .. the whole thing?
14:02 < L29Ah> i don't know much about the wire protocol
14:03 < kanzure> coin selection? the original stochastic estimation knapsack solver? the branch-and-bound varient? taproot? graftroot? g'root? what about the bech32 encoding scheme.
14:03 < kanzure> there's a lot in here, you're crazy
14:03 < L29Ah> the script boils down to things that are used for LN, things that are used for regular txs, and things that are obsolete
14:03 < L29Ah> coin selection is up to the client
14:03 < kanzure> so is the bitcoin protocol
14:04 < L29Ah> taproot is ability to hide subtrees of spending script behind their hashes afair
14:04 < kanzure> no that's MAST
14:04 < kanzure> i mean... as stated, that's merkleized abstract syntax trees.
14:04 < kanzure> and there is some relation to taproot, true
14:04 < L29Ah> bitcoin protocol is protocol, it requires over one party to work usefully, while coin selection doesn't
14:05 < kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0341.mediawiki
14:05 < L29Ah> still i don't think it's all complex enough that we shouldn't look towards LN
14:06 < L29Ah> since bitcoin as is is useless in the long term for a layman due to ever-increasing price, market share and tx cost as a result
14:12 < fenn> i feel like sidechains haven't been adequately explored, or at least i haven't heard about them very much as a relative outsider
14:13 < kanzure> paul sztorc has been advocating for "drivechains" ever since blockstream's sidechains ended up being "multisig wrap-up on the bitcoin side, and then the custodians do a 'sidechain' together"
14:13 < kanzure> blockstream liquid is probably the most used sidechain
14:13 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9R98NuphGQ
14:13 < Muaddib> [_9R98NuphGQ] (silly) blockstream brainwashing (1:31)
14:15 < fenn> "drive" meaning what?
14:16 < fenn> information storage?
14:16 < kanzure> oh i don't know the etymology https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/
14:22 < fenn> Zero Knowledge Friendship Protocol: zkfp.me "Incentives determine reality. ZKFP applies game theory to the absence of information (with zero knowledge proofs) for benevolent social goals. We're stealth until ETH is in less of a bubble."
14:22 < kanzure> https://zkp.science/
14:24 < fenn> is the ice cream flavor analogy for sidechains accurate? i thought of it as a place you move the bitcoin to, rather than adding something to a bitcoin (which implies the bitcoin can be "on" several sidechains at once)
14:25 < kanzure> there's two viewso n that
14:25 < kanzure> one is that a sidechain needs to have rules enforced by bitcoin consensus
14:25 < kanzure> and the other is one where you just stuff bitcoin into a multisig wallet and do whatever you want with that bitcoin on some other system
14:27 < kanzure> https://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
14:29 < fenn> someone should recursively wget and git clone http://zkp.science for posterity
14:52 < archels_> kanzure: what's the e/acc meeting? getting nothing on google here
14:53 < kanzure> eh nevermind, go just to visit fenn at least
14:56 < archels_> haha, will give them a poke when I get down around there. need to get this DMV business sorted first (hopefully tomorrow)
15:23 < kanzure> https://opensource.googleblog.com/2022/08/GlobalFoundries-joins-Googles-open-source-silicon-initiative.html
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 04 00:00:40 2022