--- Log opened Tue Sep 13 00:00:17 2022
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07:40 < lkcl> kanzure, https://news.slashdot.org/story/22/09/13/1350232/linux-foundation-announces-the-openwallet-foundation-to-develop-interoperable-digital-wallets
07:41 < lkcl> being controlled and under the "initiative" of the linuxfoundation, that will not go well.
07:42 < kanzure> this seems to be a broad definition of "wallet"... not sure this would actually mean anything.
07:46 < L29Ah> > Okta, Ping Identity, Accenture, CVS Health, OpenID Foundation
07:46 < L29Ah> so probably not your cryptocurrency wallet
07:49 < kanzure> facebook's version of GPT-3 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2205.01068v4.pdf
08:30 < muurkha> sounds like a waste of time
08:30 < muurkha> lkcl: how's openpower going?
12:14 < docl> just had an idea: make giant modular aerodynamic platforms with solar powered electric jets and fly them perpetually in the sunlight in the stratosphere. needs mach 1.3 at the equator, but could be subsonic closer to one of the poles
12:15 < docl> 24/7 sunlight better than anywhere on earth, slight radiation downside if you live there but less than in space
12:15 < L29Ah> electric what?
12:16 < docl> jet engines
12:16 < docl> take air in, spit it out really fast
12:17 < L29Ah> so, a fast electric ducted fan
12:17 < muurkha> if it's in the stratosphere mach 1.3 is a lot faster than it is down at the surface
12:17 < muurkha> isn't it?
12:18 < nmz787> lkcl: have you done any analog design? ADCs or low-level amplifiers?
12:18 < docl> I think so yeah, so the speed would be subsonic rather
12:18 < docl> the idea is to sync up to the earth's rotation so you always have sunlight
12:19 < muurkha> right, like a sun-synchronous orbit, just without the orbit part
12:19 < docl> exactly
12:23 < docl> rather than rotary or ducted fan, it might also be possible to use plasma jets
12:23 < docl> .t https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/this-electric-jet-engine-could-lead-to-carbon-neutral-air-travel
12:23 < saxo> Electric Jet Engines Could Mean Carbon-Neutral Air Travel
12:23 < docl> .t https://aip.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1063/5.0005814
12:23 < saxo> Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere: AIP Advances: Vol 10, No 5
12:23 < muurkha> if you just use a hydrogen balloon you don't need to spend energy on propulsion or build super-lightweight jets
12:24 < muurkha> but you do need three times as many vehicles in the air to produce the same amount of energy
12:24 < muurkha> is producing energy the goal?
12:25 < docl> that and maybe utility, e.g. you could have an amazon warehouse there
12:25 < nmz787> .title https://github.com/magical-eda/MAGICAL
12:25 < saxo> GitHub - magical-eda/MAGICAL: Machine Generated Analog IC Layout
12:25 < docl> but energy is the primary advantage of the location, I think
12:26 < docl> would also make a good rocket launch / landing site, since weather is more predictable. that's assuming big enough scale first though
12:28 < muurkha> a heavier-than-air aircraft is a very expensive place to put a warehouse
12:29 < muurkha> if you could make it 100km long you could put a railgun launcher on it
12:31 < docl> I think it's different enough from typical aircraft the cost might not be comparable. a big difference is that it doesn't have to be able to lift off, land, or even survive in the lower atmosphere
12:31 < docl> yeah, railgun launch was at the back of my mind I'll admit
12:33 < docl> I kind of want something that makes other stuff easier and is also economical today for relatively boring reasons
12:36 < docl> I was also trying to think of a way to get someone to build a 100km wide solar farm so the space reflector idea would gain traction
12:36 < L29Ah> hydrogen balloons <3
12:36 < L29Ah> http://aeromodeller2.hylas.be/?p=554 my favorite, too bad it seems like the author is gone
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12:39 < docl> thing is, big platforms should be possible to modularize, so if there's a lot of them they could be put together into a big one
12:40 < muurkha> I did the railgun calculation a while ago but I might be misremembering the result.  also I might have been too conservative with the accelerations
12:40 < docl> plus being so high up means if you beam extra power down from space, you aren't affecting the troposphere. mainly just increasing the stratosphere's ozone concentration
12:40 < muurkha> I guess we have saxo here
12:40 < muurkha> saxo!
12:40 < saxo> muurkha!
12:41 < muurkha> .units 5 gravity 100 km in J/kg
12:41 < saxo> 	5 gravity 100 km = 4903325 J/kg 	5 gravity 100 km = (1 / 2.0394324e-07) J/kg 
12:42 < muurkha> .units half (7.9 km/s)**2 in J/kg
12:42 < saxo> 	half (7.9 km/s)**2 = 31205000 J/kg 	half (7.9 km/s)**2 = (1 / 3.2046146e-08) J/kg 
12:42 < muurkha> so, uh, not gonna get a human-survivable orbital launch in only 100 km
12:42 < muurkha> if I did those calculations right?
12:44 < docl> my actual motive was trying to think of a safer way to use space mirrors. hard not to mess with the weather, but if your target is an opaque shade object in the stratosphere it's less messy
12:44 < L29Ah> toss all the other stuff while humans can enjoy the luxury of a traditional chemical rocket
12:50 < docl> I think I figured out a way to use relatively distant space mirrors to enhance the atmosphere. reflect UV in a range shorter than 240nm and scatter everything else. this would split O2 (it's the lower frequencies that O2 doesn't split that we need O3 to block). and more O3 is a partial sunshade, since it converts directional UV scattered IR. It could also mitigate the NOx problem with aerobraking
12:52 < muurkha> interesting
12:53 < muurkha> here's a puzzler: why aren't more things made out of sulfur?
12:53 < docl> volatility maybe?
12:54 < muurkha> can't you paint it to solve that problem?
12:54 < muurkha> PET costs like US$700 per tonne.  sulfur costs US$90 per tonne, and it's also a thermoplastic
12:55 < L29Ah> probably quite brittle
12:55 < muurkha> some of its properties are much worse than PET's (strength, flammability) and some are much better (conductivity, oxygen-permeability)
12:55 < L29Ah> i'm pretty sure that portland cement is cheaper and stronger than sulfur
12:56 < muurkha> you aren't going to make T-shirts and coke bottles out of sulfur of course
12:57 < muurkha> hmm, I was thinking portland cost several times more than that, but maybe it's in the same ballpark
12:57 < muurkha> how much does it cost per tonne in Russia?
12:57 < docl> if you get your sulfer plastic dishware wet, does it react with the water to make sulferic acid?
12:58 < muurkha> no, sulfur is totally inert to water
12:58 < muurkha> it's even somewhat resistant to acids
12:58 < docl> can you boil it in water and not have it react?
12:59 < muurkha> yes, but it will melt
12:59 < muurkha> unless you're up in the mountains
12:59 < muurkha> molten sulfur at 100° is yellow, transparent, has about the viscosity of water, and is slightly denser than water
13:00 < docl> hmm, looks like it melts a bit higher than water boils, 112.8C
13:02 < docl> there's gotta be some reason... okay, it's probably H2S formation
13:04 < L29Ah> 21:57:19]<muurkha> how much does it cost per tonne in Russia?
13:04 < L29Ah> concrete poured from a concrete mixer truck at your command is about $60 per cubic meter, that's about 2400kg
13:04 < docl> it oxidizes in water, like most metals. probably not dangerous to the user for cookware, but it would turn landfills a lot more lethal
13:17 < muurkha> sulfur isn't a metal and doesn't, as far as I know, oxidize in water
13:18 < muurkha> L29Ah: that's super cheap!  definitely cheaper than here
13:18 < muurkha> but that 2400 kg of concrete only contains about 200 kg of cement
13:20 < docl> ah, I guess it's not a metal and it hydrolyzes rather than oxidize
13:20 < muurkha> the heat of formation of SO₂ is -296.81 kJ/mol, which is -148.41 kJ per mol of oxygen.  water liberates, by contrast, 284 kJ/mol O
13:20 < docl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur#Chemical_properties
13:21 < muurkha> so you would expect SO₂ to fairly enthusiastically oxidize hydrogen, not H₂O to oxidize sulfur, although of course the equilibrium concentration of SO₂ would still be nonzero
13:22 < muurkha> yeah, that reaction looks more plausible
13:22 < docl> yeah, was wondering why the article I read said oxidize when the end result is H2S
13:22 < muurkha> "oxidize" really means "steal electrons from"
13:23 < muurkha> if iron is in the 2+ "oxidation state" that doesn't mean it's necessarily actually combined with oxygen.  it might be combined with, say, chlorine
13:23 < docl> oh right. so it's oxidizing the hydrogen rather than being oxidized
13:23 < muurkha> if it's dissolved in water it might be promiscuously associating with all kinds of random anions in the aqueous environment
13:23 < L29Ah> muurkha: https://cement-snab.ru/product-category/tsement/1-tonna so about $100 now
13:24 < L29Ah> used to be $50 a year ago
13:24 < L29Ah> due to rub price policy
13:24 < muurkha> L29Ah: is that the cement itself rather than the concrete containing it?
13:24 < L29Ah> cement itself
13:24 < docl> well even if it's not dissolved you still have an interaction at the surface, apparently
13:25 < lkcl> muurkha, damn busy! deadline coming up mid-oct for 5/7 of NLnet grants ending. mostly managed to extract $EUR from them
13:25 < lkcl> nmz787, very deliberately no :)
13:25 < lkcl> i know how hard it is
13:26 < L29Ah> also a month ago i bought a 25kg bag of cement for 5e on Adriatic shore
13:27 < nmz787> muurkha: re: sulfur, apparently there's an impending shortage
13:27 < nmz787> because we get most of it from petrol waste
13:27 < nmz787> and petrol is trying to trend into less usage, or something
13:28 < L29Ah> s/petrol/oil/
13:28 < muurkha> lkcl: that's exciting!
13:28 < nmz787> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/08/220822091106.htm#:~:text=Sulfur%20shortage%3A%20A%20potential%20resource%20crisis%20looming%20as%20the%20world%20decarbonizes,-Date%3A%20August%2022&text=Summary%3A,moving%20away%20from%20fossil%20fuels.
13:28 < nmz787> oops
13:28 < nmz787> sorry for the crap-long link
13:28 < muurkha> nmz787: yeah, byproducts like sulfur and indium tend to have pretty volatile prices
13:29 < nmz787> lkcl: know anyone who would be willing to contribute analog silicon layout help?
13:29 < L29Ah> couldn't find where to buy sulfur here; in moscow it's $2/kg
13:30 < muurkha> L29Ah: so at the moment portland cement is about 25% more expensive than sulfur, so sulfur concrete is economically competitive where it's applicable
13:30 < muurkha> yeah, probably it's easier to find a place to buy a tonne of portland than a tonne of sulfur
13:30 < L29Ah> a tonne is $430
13:31 < muurkha> of portland?
13:31 < L29Ah> of sulfur
13:31 < muurkha> I thought you said it was US$100
13:31 < muurkha> aha
13:31 < muurkha> that's several times as high as the price in the USGS Mineral Commodities Summary
13:32 < muurkha> which varied between US$24 and US$90 from 02017 to 02021 (the years in the "2022" MCS)
13:33 < L29Ah> https://agroserver.ru/b/sera-granulirovannaya-1506346.htm starts from $210 at 50kt apparently
13:34 < L29Ah> i'm surprised sulfur is relatively more expensive in .ru that is a massive oil-producing and refining country
13:34 < muurkha> maybe Russia has a more limited supply of sulfur than the US does
13:34 < muurkha> yeah
13:34 < muurkha> maybe your oil is cleaner ;)
13:35 < muurkha> or maybe agricultural sulfur is super pure, with all the arsenic removed, and so more expensive than if you want to buy it for making phosphate fertilizer or sulfuric acid or something
13:36 < muurkha> or maybe because of the impending shortage nmz787 mentions the prices are already much higher than they were 02017-02021
14:31 < fenn> some silly biomaterial made from weeds and hide glue and electronics (you know it's a good cult because they're wearing jumpsuits) https://www.timelab.org/projects/5354-Knotfactory
14:33 < fenn> i am jealous of their ability to get fashionable semi-urban industrial spaces to do projects like this
14:34 < fenn> "Creating time, space and reflection for a society on the move" (timelab)
14:34 < muurkha> why, where do you live?
14:35 < muurkha> I mean at city granularity, not city bock
14:35 < muurkha> *blck
14:35 < muurkha> *block
14:38  * L29Ah tries to have a semi-urban industrial space after moving to .me
14:38 < L29Ah> sadly not many industrial suppliers here as there's virtually no industry apart from construction
14:39 < L29Ah> not even a 3d printing supplies shop
14:41  * muurkha listens to Oj, svijetla majska zoro
14:41 < muurkha> what's .me like?
14:41 < muurkha> other than lacking in industry
14:43 < L29Ah> idk, laid-back, mountaineous, the shore is subtropical and touristy
14:44 < L29Ah> most of the world has a visa-free entry but the customs rules for cargo/post are kinda draconian
14:44 < L29Ah> well, compared to .ru
14:45 < fenn> muurkha: SF bay area, california (traveling and taking care of stuff in other places at the moment)
14:47 < L29Ah> rent is kinda cheap (i have a ~70m apartment in Bar for 250e/month), electricity price doesn't go on a hike, food is fine
14:47 < L29Ah> most of service people understand at least basic english, plenty of russian speakers here also
14:49 < fenn> "virtually no industry" doesn't sound like a healthy economy
14:50 < muurkha> fenn: how do you feel about the Box Shop, the Crucible, and Noisebridge?
14:50 < fenn> i guess that's why rent is low
14:50 < muurkha> L29Ah: that sounds fantastic
14:50 < fenn> muurkha: it just looks like timelab has a lot more space and relaxed vibe
14:50 < muurkha> are there a lot of tourists going in and out all the time?
14:50 < fenn> it's not jammed full of stuff and projects
14:51 < muurkha> fenn: a lot more space than the Crucible?
14:51 < fenn> the crucible is more like a school
14:51 < fenn> i mean, they charge money for classes, have a paid staff, kick you out at the end of class
14:51 < fenn> it's not for trying out weird ideas like gluing together weeds
14:53 < fenn> noisebridge, well, i guess i have too close up of a view on that one. there's lots of drama and a constant fight to keep bums from taking over
14:53 < L29Ah> fenn: yeah, the economy is very dependent on tourism; there's some industry at the north, but on the shore there's virtually nothing
14:53 < fenn> i haven't been to noisebridge since they moved a couple years ago
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15:00 < muurkha> the Crucible does, or at least did, rent out "studio access"
15:00 < muurkha> where you pay them some amount to go and use their tools and stuff to work on your project for a month
15:01 < fenn> box shop also is more like renting out "studio access" but there are communal work spaces and tools
15:01 < fenn> but it's not a cool factory with like, a floor
15:01 < muurkha> at the Crucible you have to take their classes before they'll let you use their tools
15:01 < fenn> literally a giant stack of shipping containers
15:02 < muurkha> yeah, although to me the giant stack of shipping containers is cooler than a factory
15:02 < fenn> not in summer
15:02 < muurkha> amen
15:02 < muurkha> noisebridge has had constant drama since before the day it opened
15:02 < fenn> lol
15:02 < fenn> when was that?
15:02 < L29Ah> 23:50:43]<muurkha> are there a lot of tourists going in and out all the time?
15:02 < L29Ah> idk, kinda? plenty of people live from rent during summer months here
15:03 < muurkha> like 02006 I think?  maybe 02007?
15:03 < muurkha> I went to one of the early organizational meetings before they got a space
15:03 < muurkha> when I was visiting the Bay Area
15:03 < L29Ah> also in Bar there's a sea port with shipping containers, railroads and stuff
15:04 < muurkha> L29Ah: what kinds of draconian customs rules do they have?
15:09 < L29Ah> muurkha: anything over 75e and you pay taxes; to pay taxes you go to the customs postal office at the capital and have fun there while bureaucrats are shuffling their papers that can take plenty of time; they also ask you wtf is this and seem to imply you need it for business, probably if they decide it's a business thing they would demand some business identity and additional paperwork, idk
15:10 < L29Ah> some people tell they succeeded to pay taxes when picking up their parcel at the postal office, i didn't have such experience yet, my shipment just got stopped at the customs for two weeks, after that i came to figure out what's up
15:11 < fenn> this immigrant sounds insufficiently patriotic. buy local!
15:11 < L29Ah> the taxes are 20-30% from the declared value of the shipment or something else if they decide the declaration is suspicious; over 1000e they have some other rules i didn't touch yet
15:13 < fenn> well it's an interesting game level design. reasonably modern infrastructure but no access to online shopping
15:13 < fenn> sorry you have draconian customs
15:15 < L29Ah> oh btw LTE is 10e/500GB/mo and there's some 5G thing at the capital
15:16 < L29Ah> maybe i just don't know how to bypass customs rules; someone i know befriended some customs official at some border checkpoint and doesn't pay stuff, he says
15:18 < L29Ah> so maybe one gets to bribe someone to import stuff for ones' pet projects; bribery is developed here at least with traffic inspectors
15:30 < muurkha> on the plus side, I guess the customs postal office at the capital is within 200 km of the entire country
15:30 < muurkha> that sounds dramatically less draconian than Argentina
15:30 < L29Ah> muurkha: yeah, it's about an hour ride on a train
15:31 < muurkha> I mean, not that it's excusable
15:31 < muurkha> but someone tried to ship me a box of business cards
15:31 < muurkha> it got held up in customs and they invited me to apply for a Level 4 Security Key (for Customs
15:31 < muurkha> )
15:32 < muurkha> since I am an illegal immigrant I am not eligible for such a thing so the business cards got sent back I think
15:33 < L29Ah> what i love about .me is that a legal immigration is relatively cheap given you don't want to be tied to working fulltime for some years for some employer 
15:36 < L29Ah> i would pick USA if i would want to immigrate illegally: they don't ask much identification when you're in, and the local market is huge so you'd virtually never have a need to get out
16:06 < muurkha> that's definitely a nice plus
16:21 < jrayhawk> https://twitter.com/ykilcher/status/1532751551869108227 the first volley in the complete destruction of public discourse
16:23 < muurkha> .t
16:23 < saxo> This is the worst AI ever! I trained a language model on 4chan's /pol/ board and the result is.... more truthful than GPT-3?! See how my bot anonymously posted over 30k posts on 4chan and try it yourself. Watch here (warning: may be offensive): / https://youtu.be/efPrtcLdcdM https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUVsmvmXEAMX8cw.jpg (@ykilcher)
16:23 < Muaddib> [efPrtcLdcdM] This is the worst AI ever (19:20)
16:25 < jrayhawk> Twitter and Reddit are dead in the water unless we build a costly trust system
16:27 < muurkha> oh
16:27 < muurkha> shit
16:34 < superkuh> notabug.io has proof of work posting. But if they can train their own model they probably have resources more than a normal person.
16:36 < muurkha> he didn't train his own model, he fine-tuned GPT-J for two weeks
16:36 < superkuh> Oh.
16:39 < muurkha> to bypass the 4chan captchas he bought a year-long US$20 "4chan Pass"
16:45 < fenn> "Engineering Life to Reach New Worlds - An argument that we have a moral duty to explore other planets and solar systems—because human life on Earth has an expiration date." https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262543842/the-next-500-years/
17:21 < kanzure> https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/iAowzcZm87wNrTQCb/a-biosecurity-and-biorisk-reading-list
17:25 < lkcl> muurkha, it's got me in headless-chicken-meltdown-mode up at 1:30am, is what it is :)
17:45 < muurkha> that sounds unproductive!  hopefully it doesn't turn out that way
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21:57 < maaku> L29Ah: big russian population here too. you'd be welcome
22:00 < maaku> with all this talk of montenegro though, worth noting that you can buy citizenship for the next couple of months, if you start the paperwork now
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 14 00:00:18 2022