--- Log opened Tue Sep 27 00:00:31 2022
00:10 < nmz787> lkcl: https://platform.efabless.com/projects/1346
00:10 < nmz787> know them by chance :D
00:10 < nmz787> ?
00:26 < nmz787> .title https://github.com/Xyce/Xyce
00:26 < saxo> GitHub - Xyce/Xyce: The Xyce™ Parallel Electronic Simulator
00:27 < nmz787> Xyce (zīs, rhymes with "spice") is an open source, SPICE-compatible, high-performance analog circuit simulator, capable of solving extremely large circuit problems by supporting large-scale parallel computing platforms. It also supports serial execution on all common desktop platforms, and small-scale parallel runs on Unix-like systems. In addition to analog electronic simulation, Xyce has also been 
00:27 < nmz787> used to investigate more general network systems, such as neural networks and power grids. In providing an Open Source version of Xyce to the external community, Sandia hopes to contribute a robust and modern electronic simulator to users and researchers in the field.
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03:46 < lkcl> nmz787, i'm a cultural graveyard, very focussed - getting on with what i do rather than "socially network nicey nicey with lots of self-promotion and aggrandisement" :)
03:46 < lkcl> https://github.com/chrische-xx/mpw7 - looks pretty damn good
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06:50 < kanzure> https://github.com/michelcrypt4d4mus/pdfalyzer/blob/master/doc/svgs/rendered_images/rich_table_tree.png
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10:01 < muurkha> hadn't heard of Xyce, that's cool
10:02 < muurkha> a friend of mine at Sandia was using WRspice for simulating his Josephson junction circuits, which is also open source
10:03 < muurkha> the other open-source alternatives I know of are Ngspice (questionably open source), original Berkeley SPICE, QUCS (lower assurance), and various implementations of Modelica like OMEdit
10:04 < muurkha> Modelica has the potential advantage that it can handle things like heat flow, mechanical movement, and in some sense microcontroller programs
10:15 < nmz787> lkcl: not sure how to interpret your first response... who is glorifying themselves in this story, or why are you saying you don't? Are you saying that guy does, and I guess that means you've heard of him/them? 
10:17 < L29Ah> got access to The Wikipedia Library today
10:17 < L29Ah> "The Wikipedia Library has partnered with publishers around the world to allow users to access otherwise paywalled resources. This website allows Wikipedia editors to search and access these resources."
10:17 < L29Ah> i wonder if it can do things that scihub can't
10:20 < nmz787> huh, nice!
10:32 < kanzure> lidar in a smartphone camera module formfactor(?) https://www.lumotive.com/
10:32 < kanzure> L29Ah: need some papers to test with?
10:47 < L29Ah> kanzure: sure
10:48 < lkcl> nmz787, i was referring to myself :) i've never heard of him because i'm too damned focussed and too damned busy!
10:49 < kanzure> L29Ah: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/333854 DOI: 10.1109/18.333854 "A new procedure for decoding cyclic and BCH codes up to actual minimum distance"
11:01 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1574809046292594689
11:01 < saxo> @C4R3Bear @kanzure just listened to Kurzweil on Lex Fridman. He doesn't really talk about bio (except as an existential threat). So if there is a bio-singularity what is it...what's on the exponential plot y-axis? (@antonioregalado, in reply to tw:1574422682686394368)
11:04 < kanzure> ironically the y-axis in kurzweil's charts is already mammalian brains
11:04 < kanzure> "surpasses the brainpower of a mouse in 2015" what does that even mean?
11:04 < kanzure> we most certainly have not been able to do a full neuronal emulation of a mouse brain
11:05 < kanzure> nor any other algorithm that can exactly predict all mouse behavior, to my knowledge.
11:05 < kanzure> oh maybe i'm looking at the wrong chart
11:06 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Singularity_Is_Near#/media/File:PPTExponentialGrowthof_Computing.jpg
11:07 < kanzure> we haven't even done an insect brain emulation.
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11:29 < L29Ah> kanzure: no IEEE
11:31 < L29Ah> it's among the top ten requested publishers tho so might change in the future
11:36 < muurkha> bummer
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12:44 < nmz787> why is it people want to emulate insect or mouse brains? I can't remember
12:45  * nmz787 has enough mice, and wishes they would all stay away from his stuff
12:45 < muurkha> well, one reason is that some of them do much more robust flight control and inverse kinematics in much less hardware than anything we've built so far
12:46 < muurkha> another reason is that in order to emulate human brains we probably have to be able to emulate simpler ones first
12:46 < nmz787> found a dead mouse in the same box, next to my experimental electroporator, last night... ended up having a ton of maggots inside it and I think fungus fuzz too. Then a box or two higher up, found a nest and 4 dead mouse babies
12:46 < muurkha> ♥ nature is healing ♥
12:48 < nmz787> living in the country has instilled a certain disdain for nature in me... oddly enough
12:48 < muurkha> of course :)
12:48 < nmz787> we've already used rat neurons to pilot flight simulators 10+ years ago
12:48 < nmz787> and why do we want to emulate human brains??
12:49 < muurkha> to not die
12:50 < nmz787> not sure why emulating myself would imply I wouldn't die....
12:51 < muurkha> you know about the Brain of Theseus?
12:51 < nmz787> is dying really that bad?
12:51 < nmz787> has anyone brought up that obvious point?
12:51 < nmz787> nope
12:51 < muurkha> I mean, also it would potentially be useful for figuring more stuff out faster, if non-human-image AIs aren't much more efficient
12:51 < muurkha> yeah, there's a whole political division at this point between people who want everyone to die and people who don't
12:51 < nmz787> well, I'm not saying that
12:52 < nmz787> you're sort of saying pro-choice == pro-death, which isn't the case
12:52 < nmz787> (or needn't be)
12:52 < nmz787> why is it even a political division? are you making this up?
12:52 < muurkha> I am not making this up
12:53 < muurkha> it's a political division because the mortalists and immortalists have formed partisan groups and launch attacks on one another's character
12:53  * nmz787 I'm just a simple space chicken... buccaww!
12:53 < muurkha> at the moment it's not very important because uploading is not yet a practical reality
12:53 < nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ij_1SQqbVo
12:53 < Muaddib> [7ij_1SQqbVo] Futurama Chicken Lawyer Compilation (2:35)
12:54 < muurkha> immortalists sometimes use the term "deathists"
12:55 < nmz787> "I might be a super country hyper chicken, but I know when we're finger licked"
12:55 < nmz787> we can't even figure out rodent control... who wants to live forever in a world like this?
12:56 < muurkha> but there's definitely a lot of people who think that it would be terrible if some people were able to live forever
12:56 < nmz787> sure
12:56 < nmz787> also seems obviously bad for many a folk
12:56 < muurkha> these are sort of divided among people who think it would be terrible for everyone else, and people who think it would be terrible for the immortals
12:57 < muurkha> I don't know of anyone who claims that nobody should be allowed to die; people who are opposed to euthanasia are also opposed to the possibility of immortality, as far as I can tell to a man
12:58 < muurkha> so in the three-way potential division between "nobody should have immortality", "some people should have immortality", and "everybody should have immortality even if they don't want it", as far as I can tell the third group is empty
12:59 < nmz787> hmm, idk, my dad is probably against euthanasia but for immortality
13:00 < nmz787> although maybe he's misunderstanding it as "youth in asia"
13:00 < nmz787> (j/k)
13:01 < muurkha> heh, don't let Elon Musk hear
13:02 < nmz787> because of the thailand cave thing?
13:02 < nmz787> I don't read much outside of journal articles these days...
13:02 < nmz787> or childrens' books
13:03 < nmz787> apparently there's a donald duck comic that predicted/inspired some sort of fullerene type research/discovery
13:03 < muurkha> yeah, that's what I was joking about
13:04 < nmz787> oh, carbenes
13:04 < nmz787> https://www.uky.edu/Projects/Chemcomics/html/dd_15_2_n.html
13:04 < nmz787> .wik carbene
13:04 < saxo> "In organic chemistry, a carbene is a molecule containing a neutral carbon atom with a valence of two and two unshared valence electrons." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbene
13:05 < muurkha> .t https://www.huffpost.com/entry/can-transhumanism-overcom_b_7433108
13:05 < saxo> Can Transhumanism Overcome a Widespread Deathist Culture? | HuffPost Religion
13:05 < muurkha> (by Zoltan Istvan)
13:07 < nmz787> wow, cool, the periodic table of comics https://www.uky.edu/Projects/Chemcomics/
13:07 < muurkha> .t https://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Deathism
13:07 < saxo> Deathism - H+Pedia
13:07 < nmz787> see, the thing about living forever that sucks for most people, is the enduring pain of the human condition
13:08 < nmz787> like, great if you're not already depressed
13:08 < muurkha> did you read Lena?
13:08 < muurkha> .t https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
13:08 < saxo> Lena @ Things Of Interest
13:08 < nmz787> don't think so
13:09 < muurkha> it's a quietly horrifying exploration of that
13:09 < nmz787> I think the only Lena I know is that porn star who is featured in all the image processing best practices and examples
13:09 < muurkha> to my mind, much worse than "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"
13:09 < superkuh> On that subject, I haven't seen "Pantheon" (2022, hard scifi animation) mentioned here. It's decent.
13:10 < muurkha> yeah, the title is a reference to her
13:10 < nmz787> sorry, that lena thing is too long for me to read
13:10 < nmz787> I have an aversion to clearly non-technical writings, as of the last 10-15 years
13:11 < muurkha> it's 1927 words, which is about six minutes
13:11 < muurkha> don't be dismayed by the length of the comment thread below
13:12 < muurkha> there are 193 comments which are >90% of the scroll length of the page
13:12 < nmz787> ah, yeah I scrolled down trying to skim and got to the comments quickly before I closed the page
13:13 < nmz787> idk, having control is a great ideal, but it's not a true/possible reality IMO
13:13 < nmz787> at least not *full* control
13:13 < muurkha> I wholly support your aversion to clearly non-technical writings
13:13 < muurkha> reasoning from fictional premises is unhealthy
13:13 < nmz787> there's always a bus you might not see
13:14 < nmz787> I enjoy fiction, I just can't seem to read things without skimming and doing this non-sequential hopping around
13:14 < nmz787> it makes fiction unenjoyable I guess
13:14 < muurkha> enough time has passed since I pasted the link that you already would have finished reading it if you read it sequentially ;)
13:14 < nmz787> but movies/TV-episodes I can deal with once in a while
13:15 < nmz787> lately though, I feel like I take time to watch TV/movies just to be part of family affairs
13:15 < muurkha> I think this story is interesting because it helped me think about possibilities of emulation that I hadn't considered
13:15 < muurkha> I think it's correct that they're possibilities
13:16 < muurkha> but I think it would be a mistake to overweight the certainty of the whole scenario
13:17 < nmz787> how about this 18 year old who has two degrees from Harvard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ria_Cheruvu
13:17 < nmz787> that got me a little depressed thinking about my "failures" as a father 
13:17 < nmz787> why the hell am I such a bad parent that my kid isn't that focused?
13:18 < nmz787> why would I want to live forever if I've got clearly shit genetics in terms of focus compared to that family?
13:18 < nmz787> I mean, maybe I have better, idk, heart genetics or something...
13:19 < kanzure> i would think you should be trying to optimize for childhood self-actualization more than anything, whether that is in the form of harvard attendance or not
13:19 < kanzure> if the kid is into minecraft, you help them make the dopest minecraftiest minecraft cube (that's what the kids make, right?) they can manage
13:20 < kanzure> </not-a-parent>
13:21 < muurkha> one risk of reading fiction is
13:21 < muurkha> .t 
13:21 < saxo> "Ria Cheruvu is an American child prodigy from Gilbert, Arizona. She graduated from high school in May 2015 at age 11." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ria_Cheruvu
13:21 < muurkha> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy
13:21 < saxo> "The conjunction fallacy (also known as the Linda problem) is an inference from an array of particulars, in violation of the laws of probability, that a conjoint set of two or more conclusions is likelier than any single member of that same set." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy
13:21 < muurkha> sorry
13:22 < nmz787> I generally have that approach, it's just... well... all the cool science/engineering stuff we're complaining doesn't exist... all pretty much requires a LOT of education and understanding of past technical development... which degrees are a proxy by which to determine knowledge-level
13:22 < muurkha> Linda the feminist bank teller
13:23 < muurkha> nmz787: lots of people with Harvard degrees never do anything important
13:24 < muurkha> quite aside from the question of whether they're happy or not; suicide rates at Ivy Leagues and MIT suggest that a lot of them aren't
13:25 < nmz787> yes but being uninspired isn't the same as being unable to comprehend what to do (if inspired)
13:25 < nmz787> being inspired and stupid isn't any more useful, I think
13:25 < nmz787> at least in terms of technical achievement
13:26 < nmz787> err, I mean, there's obviously edge cases all over the place... but I'd guess there's a whole heap of self-determination in there
13:26 < kanzure> btw a lot of the early child prodigy graduation stuff is actually a function of parents moving around the country to optimize for admissions into the next level for their child
13:26 < kanzure> kind of like searching for a doctor that will prescribe you a specific medication that you want
13:26 < nmz787> well it seems that girl's parents just stayed local
13:27 < nmz787> she was in some online school
13:27 < nmz787> which I guess helped her be ranked and move up
13:27 < nmz787> but she memorized the names of 43 american presidents by age 3
13:27 < kanzure> so can a parrot who cares
13:27 < nmz787> I don't think I've ever told my kid any american presidents names
13:27 < nmz787> yeah, true
13:27 < kanzure> actually i suppose i have not seen a parrot do specifically that
13:28 < nmz787> I guess that girl may not be able to ride a motorcycle offroad, or climb a tree
13:29 < nmz787> though I'm not sure what I was thinking in terms of future benefit giving my kid a motorcycle(s) would accomplish, other than fulfilling something I wanted/lacked when I was a kid
13:29 < kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k
13:29 < Muaddib> [CJkWS4t4l0k] Scientists Successfully Teach Gorilla It Will Die Someday (2:30)
13:29 < nmz787> I guess he'll be able to ride through the hoards of thieving anti-transhumanists during the great revolt of 2036
13:30 < nmz787> I heard on the radio the other day that Betty White (the golden girls actress) had some paintings from Koko the gorilla (I think gorilla) who learned sign language... and I wondered briefly about that
13:30 < nmz787> like, could the gorilla tell us if all the gorillas are pissed that they live in relative squalor?
13:31 < nmz787> and was it protesting being locked up like prisoner? or did the "teachers" choose to ignore that bit of lessons
13:31 < nmz787> (about koko being imprisoned, or stolen from her mother, etc)
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14:41 < muurkha> did she even know she was locked up like prisoner and stolen from her mother?
14:42 < muurkha> I think being inspired and stupid usually has pretty great effects, not sure if less so than being uninspired and brilliant
14:44 < muurkha> at regular-human levels of stupid, I mean, the kind of people who never pass calculus, not Koko levels of stupid
14:45 < muurkha> I think most people are capable of getting really, really good at something, what you might call inhumanly good, if they practice enough
14:46 < muurkha> it might take them two or three times as long as it would take someone who has great aptitude for it
14:47 < muurkha> but the bigger bottleneck is usually doing things like sitting around chatting on IRC or watching TV or scrolling through Instagram instead of doing deliberate practice
14:49 < muurkha> it's very hard to do deliberate practice if you don't have someone to guide you, and often people instead stick to lower-effort forms of engagement, even if they're doing something that requires skill
14:50 < muurkha> reaching high levels of expertise requires leaning pretty hard on the exploration/exploitation tradeoff, spending a lot of time doing things you're not good at yet instead of the things that you've already mastered
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16:20 < docl> yeah, low effort stimuli competing against higher-effort sources seems to have a big effect. I do wonder how people get to a high level of expertise without being inspired though, seems kind of prerequisite
16:21 < docl> kind of interesting that regular-level humans learn to drive, despite all the latent calculus. just a matter of surviving driver's ed and letting muscle memory take over
16:30 < docl> big problems with big solutions seem to inspire me pretty reliably. and I usually level up my expertise if I stay on target for a few days. the process seems to involve discovering where my understanding is lacking and imagining this can be remedied so that I'll be motivated to study
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21:53 < lsneff> i’ve met some gifted kids and I will say that high-agency usually is more useful than raw intelligence
21:54 < lsneff> and being able to gauge when a problem is actually important
21:55 < lsneff> i have a good friend who graduated a very prestigious law school when he was 20-21, super smart guy, but his career will probably have a net negative effect on humanity
21:55 < muurkha> do you mean being able to?  or actually doing it, and then working on the important problems?
21:56 < lsneff> able to do what?
21:57 < muurkha> to gauge when a problem is actually important
21:58 < muurkha> I mean I feel like most people are able to figure out that what they're focusing on isn't actually important
21:58 < muurkha> they just don't do it, or if they do, they don't act on the results
21:59 < lsneff> ah, confusing wording. it’s very important to be able to gauge when a problem is actually important
21:59 < lsneff> and if you’re working on something unimportant, having the agency to change that
22:01 < lsneff> the vast majority of people are doing unimportant tasks and either don’t realize it or they don’t go and put themself in the position to do something important
22:05 < muurkha> when you're 6 maybe the problem is that you can't gauge when it's actually important
22:05 < muurkha> actually I think maybe most people don't have much perspective on that
22:06 < muurkha> I remember when I was a kid I thought flying on airplanes (which I did regularly) must be terribly dangerous because there were always plane crashes on the news
22:07 < muurkha> I had an argument on the orange website about a similar thing this weekend actually
22:07 < muurkha> .t https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32959507
22:07 < saxo> Almost all gun violence is international warfare. Petty crime and gang shootings... | Hacker News
22:07 < muurkha> "are a rounding error"
22:08 < muurkha> and someone took issue with that because they thought that actually the number of people killed in peacetime gun violence was much large than it actually is, and the number killed in wars much smaller
22:08 < muurkha> someone with that sort of misconception is not in a good position to make intelligent tradeoffs about their effect on the world
22:10 < muurkha> very likely the person who responded to me in that thread by parroting partisan talking points at me was no longer 6
22:16 < muurkha> pocket 7-inch clamshell "with a real keyboard": https://spectrum.ieee.org/meet-an-open-source-pc-that-can-fit-in-your-pocket
22:16 < muurkha> MNT Pocket Reform
22:18 < muurkha> 12 keys horizontally.  7 inches is presumably the diagonal of the display, which is a bit smaller than the keyboard, so the keyboard width might be about the same as the display diagonal
22:18 < muurkha> .units 7 inches / 12 in mm
22:18 < saxo> 	7 inches / 12 = 14.816667 mm 	7 inches / 12 = (1 / 0.067491564) mm 
22:18 < muurkha> 14.8 mm per key might be wide enough to be usable
23:16 < muurkha> I think 14mm is my minimum
--- Log closed Wed Sep 28 00:00:32 2022